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[Dr The Singh]

5 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Isn't remain the second biggest vote in political history, only beaten on numbers by the leave vote. It's not the number of votes that matter, it's the margin of victory. It wasn't far off 50/50. No wonder the country is so divided, when we're prepared to completely ignore almost half the of it.

I'm really confused, who gives a fook who is second, I won second prize.in a beauty contest.and guess what no fooker ever mentions it.  A vote was won, by over a fooking million votes, let's move on folks 

[Facecloth]

37 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

What reforms would we have pursued exactly?  Successive UK government's had tried for years with less and less effect.  David Cameron himself tried to do exactly that prior to the referendum and got the square root of sod all as the European Union was A) Completely unwilling to believe that there was a threat we'd actually vote to leave and B) The European project is a fixed ideal with one ultimate goal which is full European integration.  

 

There isn't a cat in hells chance they'd have been willing to reform AFTER a vote to remain, if anything it would have strengthened their resolve to push ahead with full political, economic and military integration as the British threat would have been extinguished for good in their eyes.  

 

I believe both the UK and EU are best apart.  I can only hope sense prevails on both sides and we can agree to a comprehensive free trade deal prior to Halloween.  

We might not have succeeded in making reforms, but we've hardly succeeded in ****ing leaving have we!

 

I think a close remain result would have forced them to reconsider their position. Nobody, not even leave thought leave would win, I think an extremely close remain would have made them realise that they were making mistakes in the eyes of a large proportion of the population.

 

I don't think we will reach a deal. We've spent 3 years getting nowhere and nobody here likes the deal we've offered. Europe wont budge though, theres no renegotiation. We're about to have the third contender in a row for the worst prime minister in history. Nothing will change before October. We've ****ed it and it'll only get worse with Boris or **** in charge.

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

I'm really confused, who gives a fook who is second, I won second prize.in a beauty contest.and guess what no fooker ever mentions it.  A vote was won, by over a fooking million votes, let's move on folks 

In a democratic vote in this country even the losers are listened to and their opinion considered. If the tories win the GE they don't take over the parliament exclusively, the seats are divided our accordingly to who else received votes.

 

Also this country is extremely divided at minute, people talk about uniting it. Well maybe the best way to do that is if we insist on implementing the referendum result maybe in doing so we should try and reflect the closeness of it and not only appease the winning side, but also appease the one that came a close second.

[Grebfromgrebland]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

Yes it is, beaten only by the leave vote. 

 

It was close (although still well over a million difference) but the idea of holding these elections or referendums is to decide things that are close. Otherwise what's the point? We don't hold them to find out how much we need to compromise on something or whether it's that's tight a vote that we might get away with not implementing it.

 

If Corbyn sneaks a majority at the next election I don't expect Tories in his cabinet because it was close.

 

It's funny how this only came about in 2019, look at the result of the Welsh devolution referendum - yet that was just implemented no matter how tight.

I don't remember there being massive fraud and foreign influence on the Welsh devolution vote.

[BlueSi13]

21 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

We might not have succeeded in making reforms, but we've hardly succeeded in ****ing leaving have we!

 

I think a close remain result would have forced them to reconsider their position. Nobody, not even leave thought leave would win, I think an extremely close remain would have made them realise that they were making mistakes in the eyes of a large proportion of the population.

 

I don't think we will reach a deal. We've spent 3 years getting nowhere and nobody here likes the deal we've offered. Europe wont budge though, theres no renegotiation. We're about to have the third contender in a row for the worst prime minister in history. Nothing will change before October. We've ****ed it and it'll only get worse with Boris or **** in charge.

No we haven't, but when you consider that 75% of the House of Commons voted remain (including the Prime Minister and Chancellor) then is that hardly a surprise?

 

I've written this on here before but it would have been like Scotland voting for independence and then handing the negotiations over to Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives.

 

I seriously have no idea why you think the EU would have been willing to reform after a vote to remain. The issue would have been resolved as far as they and the UK government would have been concerned, regardless if there was just a single vote in it.  

 

Maybe we don't reach a deal.  What we know is that parliament will never pass the deal on offer and the EU is so far unwilling to budge.  If the EU continues on this line then it's No Deal on the 31st.  That's unless a minority of Conservative MP's believe ushering in a Marxist government is preferable to No Deal (as well as sacrificing the Conservative Party at the alter of Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party).

 

Soon it will be put up or shut up time.

[Dr The Singh]

21 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

In a democratic vote in this country even the losers are listened to and their opinion considered. If the tories win the GE they don't take over the parliament exclusively, the seats are divided our accordingly to who else received votes.

 

Also this country is extremely divided at minute, people talk about uniting it. Well maybe the best way to do that is if we insist on implementing the referendum result maybe in doing so we should try and reflect the closeness of it and not only appease the winning side, but also appease the one that came a close second.

The vote was to leave, leave won, we should be listening to second place guys on the best way to leave even if it is the most difficult thing to do.  And inturn the second place folk should be honourable to accept it, and not act like spoilt children and protest to overturn the vote and policiticians should not pay heed to it.

 

What I saw was the politicians shoot UK's bargaining ability In the foot by trying to undermine the vote.  That is criminal.

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

No we haven't, but when you consider that 75% of the House of Commons voted remain (including the Prime Minister and Chancellor) then is that hardly a surprise?

 

I've written this on here before but it would have been like Scotland voting for independence and then handing the negotiations over to Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives.

 

I seriously have no idea why you think the EU would have been willing to reform after a vote to remain. The issue would have been resolved as far as they and the UK government would have been concerned, regardless if there was just a single vote in it.  

 

Maybe we don't reach a deal.  What we know is that parliament will never pass the deal on offer and the EU is so far unwilling to budge.  If the EU continues on this line then it's No Deal on the 31st.  That's unless a minority of Conservative MP's believe ushering in a Marxist government is preferable to No Deal (as well as sacrificing the Conservative Party at the alter of Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party).

 

Soon it will be put up or shut up time.

And you voted for all that, and apparently knew what you was voting for ?

[Facecloth]

7 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

The vote was to leave, leave won, we should be listening to second place guys on the best way to leave even if it is the most difficult thing to do.  And inturn the second place folk should be honourable to accept it, and not act like spoilt children and protest to overturn the vote and policiticians should not pay heed to it.

 

What I saw was the politicians shoot UK's bargaining ability In the foot by trying to undermine the vote.  That is criminal.

This whole situation came from years of that frog faced twat Farage acting like a spoilt child, so don't get arsey about others doing it now.

Edited 26 June 2019 by Facecloth

[Buce]

39 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

We might not have succeeded in making reforms, but we've hardly succeeded in ****ing leaving have we!

 

I think a close remain result would have forced them to reconsider their position. Nobody, not even leave thought leave would win, I think an extremely close remain would have made them realise that they were making mistakes in the eyes of a large proportion of the population.

 

I don't think we will reach a deal. We've spent 3 years getting nowhere and nobody here likes the deal we've offered. Europe wont budge though, theres no renegotiation. We're about to have the third contender in a row for the worst prime minister in history. Nothing will change before October. We've ****ed it and it'll only get worse with Boris or **** in charge.

 

Astonishing, isn’t it?

 

#ledbymorons

[BlueSi13]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

And you voted for all that, and apparently knew what you was voting for ?

I knew exactly what I voted for yes.  Not sure what's funny?  The idea that the House of Commons would respect the vote?  Yea that is pretty funny now looking back 

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

I knew exactly what I voted for yes.  Not sure what's funny?  The idea that the House of Commons would respect the vote?  Yea that is pretty funny now looking back 

You might have had a version in your head, but that might he completely different to others who voted leave, and different to the eventual outcome. It was a blind vote.

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

This whole situation came from years of that frog faced twat Farage acting like a spoilt child for years, so don't get arsey about others doing it now.

Yes and guess what the public voted for what he asked, so maybe he was justified in doing so.  Well done Mr Farage.  Unlike all the politicians after the brexit vote that cried tears and went against the majority, they lost and they deserve what they get.

 

 

[Nick]

It’s great to see how far the narratives of our arguments as a political forum have progressed since 2016.

 

 

[String fellow]

In which direction? Towards the hard left? Use of words like 'twat' used against Boris and Nige don't represent any progression in the narrative whatsoever imo. Maybe folk who use such words might consider what a 'twat' (to use their word) JC is, with his tendency to side with Britain's adversaries, such as the IRA and other terrorist groups. He couldn't even quite accept that the Salisbury incident was done by his Russian friends. One of his idols is Hugo Chavez, whose hard left government in Venezuela ruined that country's economy. Be very careful what you wish for. If you think this country is in a mess now, under Corbyn, it could face economic catastrophe.     

[Nick]

13 minutes ago, String fellow said:

In which direction? Towards the hard left? Use of words like 'twat' used against Boris and Nige don't represent any progression in the narrative whatsoever imo. Maybe folk who use such words might consider what a 'twat' (to use their word) JC is, with his tendency to side with Britain's adversaries, such as the IRA and other terrorist groups. He couldn't even quite accept that the Salisbury incident was done by his Russian friends. One of his idols is Hugo Chavez, whose hard left government in Venezuela ruined that country's economy. Be very careful what you wish for. If you think this country is in a mess now, under Corbyn, it could face economic catastrophe.     

Yep, the above is exactly what I’m on about! 

[Grebfromgrebland]

I think most sensible people don't want Tories or Labour. 

[Nick]

Just now, Grebfromgrebland said:

I think most sensible people don't want Tories or Labour. 

Amen.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

I think most sensible people don't want Tories or Labour. 

 

I agree.

 

But until we abandon FPTP for a more democratic system, that's the only real choice we have.

[Guest MattP]

13 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I imagine if it was as close the other way there would be pressure to push reforms in the EU as it was a clear vote that whilst happy to stay in we weren't happy with it completely as it is.

 

Going back to point about the GE made earlier. If I vote for the second biggest party, I don't vote for the government, but a sufficient amount of people voted the same way that that party still have some voice in parliament, still have some influence. Why should this be any different.

@BlueSi13 has already covered most of this - but it's absolutely laughable that any sort of reform would have been possible after a vote to Remain - and you call our side fantasists. 

 

You know as well as I do it would have been full steps towards further integration and as ever, our parliament would have been happy to oblige.

 

There would have been no compromise whatever.

Edited 27 June 2019 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

As for Chris Williamson being allowed back into Labour - Stephen Pollard sums it up.

Hypocrites like Louise Haigh as well are the worst of the worst - they go knocking the doors of Peterborough campaigning for people like Lisa Forbes then start hashtagging on Twitter how "anti-racist" they are. 

[Alf Bentley]

32 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I agree.

 

But until we abandon FPTP for a more democratic system, that's the only real choice we have.

 

The chances of electoral reform must be higher now than for at least 20 years.....but might be a fleeting mirage. 

 

Although the next election is unpredictable, there's a good chance of another hung parliament. Hopefully there'll be more Lib Dem MPs & if they've any sense, the Lib Dems would make electoral reform a precondition for propping up Lab or Con.

Given the mess that the big parties have made of politics over Brexit, I could imagine such reform being more popular with the public now.....though holding a referendum might be a no-no....

 

In its 1997 manifesto, Labour had a commitment to a referendum on proper electoral reform (not the half-baked AV scheme put to a referendum in 2011 or whenever)....but once they got a big majority, Labour reneged on that.

I went to lobby my Labour MP at the time, Geoffrey Robinson, but he argued that FPTP provides "strong government". I feel like going to see the tosser again (he's still an MP in Cov) to see if he still believes that.

I voted Lib Dem against Robinson in 2001 for that very reason, much good that it did me given the landslide & it being a "safe seat".

 

Just checked the precise Lib Dem policy & glad to see they support STV in multi-member constituencies. That seems the best system to me. Politics is in flux now, though, so fvck knows where we end up.....except in a mess, almost certainly.

[Buce]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

@BlueSi13 has already covered most of this - but it's absolutely laughable that any sort of reform would have been possible after a vote to Remain - and you call our side fantasists. 

 

You know as well as I do it would have been full steps towards further integration and as ever, our parliament would have been happy to oblige.

 

There would have been no compromise whatever.

 

Anyway, Matt - now you appear to a have more time, how about explaining what specific policies your 'patriotic' party would have.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Anyway, Matt - now you appear to a have more time, how about explaining what specific policies your 'patriotic' party would have.

I told you yesterday it would socially be in line with Lega and economically akin to the CDU.

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

As for Chris Williamson being allowed back into Labour ....

 

I wondered how long it would take you to mention Bonehead Chris. 

 

The expulsion of Alistair Campbell & rapid reinstatement of Williamson in time to re-apply to be an MP tells me that Corbyn's vindictive, cynical Stalinist mates have strong control of internal party machinery.

 

The good news is that they don't have control of most branches or most MPs or party conference.....though the latter might be bad news for you as a Brexiteer, as Corbyn's opposition to a referendum will surely be over-ruled....though the Brexit endgame might well have happened by then. 

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I went to lobby my Labour MP at the time, Geoffrey Robinson, but he argued that FPTP provides "strong government". I feel like going to see the tosser again (he's still an MP in Cov) to see if he still believes that.

I voted Lib Dem against Robinson in 2001 for that very reason, much good that it did me given the landslide & it being a "safe seat".

He was probably too busy passing information to communist Czechoslovakia to deal with that!