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[Beechey]

 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Beechey said:

 

The peoples vote mob are as bad as the ERG - just as prepared to gamble it all by risking no deal to get what they want.

 

Surely the speaker can't allow another vote on a second referendum now? That's four times its been defeated. 

[Beechey]

Just now, MattP said:

The peoples vote mob are as bad as the ERG - just as prepared to gamble it all by risking no deal to get what they want.

 

Surely the speaker can't allow another vote on a second referendum now? That's four times its been defeated. 

I'd be irritated if he did. But what can he allow back? There seems to be nothing that can get a proper majority.

[AKCJ]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

The peoples vote mob are as bad as the ERG - just as prepared to gamble it all by risking no deal to get what they want.

 

Surely the speaker can't allow another vote on a second referendum now? That's four times its been defeated. 

What can come back?

 

 

[Beechey]

 

[BlueSi13]

55 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

And so it goes on.

 

It will be easy, they said...

 

It was never going to be easy (73% of the House of Commons voted for Remain) but even I'm shocked at the resistance to uphold the result of the 2016 referendum.  

 

This is would have been like the SNP winning the Scottish Independence referendum and handing the negotiation over to Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives.

 

IMO the Brexiteers biggest mistake was trusting May and not installing somebody who saw Brexit as an opportunity rather than damage limitation.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

What's the difference between this and Labour voting against May's deal THREE times?

 

Quite a lot of Tory MPs voted against May's deal, too: 115, 75 and 34 in the three votes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47748806

 

In fact, looking at those numbers, if all the Tories had voted for May's Deal, it would have been a tie first time and she would have won the 2nd and 3rd times....without even needing the DUP.

 

If parliament doesn't vote decisively for something in the next couple of days, I can imagine the EU seeing No Deal as less hassle than allowing an extension. 

So, we might get to find out who was right between those who thought it was a great idea, or a minor blip or an utter disaster....

[Buce]

8 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I hate it when falsehoods become accepted as facts.....

 

(1) "Brexit has the greatest democratic mandate in British history"....not true!

 

- Almost 100% of the electorate voted for Churchill's wartime unity govt via the 1935 election

- More people voted for the Cameron/Clegg 2010 coalition govt (which resisted calls for Brexit) than voted Leave in the referendum

- More people voted in the 1992 general election, won by John Major, than in the 2016 referendum

 

So, if we combine the greatest mandates in British democratic history, we should opt for a Tory/Lab/LD coalition led by John Major. 

 

(2) "We have to abide by the 2017 Tory manifesto"........er, no. That may be an issue for Tory MPs but not for anyone else.

 

- That manifesto didn't win a majority govt; in fact it LOST a majority govt!

- Labour certainly didn't support Hard Brexit in its vote-winning 2017 manifesto: https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/#first

- Er, since when did party manifestos become holy writ anyway?!? 

- If they are holy writ, how come the Tories reversed their controversial 2017 manifesto commitment on social care funding as soon as the election campaign started?

- When do I get to jump into a tardis to enjoy the referendum on electoral reform promised in the 1997 Labour manifesto?

 

Mods!!

 

Surely introducing facts into the debate is a banning offence?

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

If parliament doesn't vote decisively for something in the next couple of days, I can imagine the EU seeing No Deal as less hassle than allowing an extension. 

So, we might get to find out who was right between those who thought it was a great idea, or a minor blip or an utter disaster....

I doubt they want that but I honestly wouldn't blame them for taking that route given the last couple of weeks.

 

Our parliament is absurd, totally selfish with little compromise from anybody on any side of the house.

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

It was never going to be easy (73% of the House of Commons voted for Remain) but even I'm shocked at the resistance to uphold the result of the 2016 referendum.  

 

This is would have been like the SNP winning the Scottish Independence referendum and handing the negotiation over to Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives.

 

IMO the Brexiteers biggest mistake was trusting May and not installing somebody who saw Brexit as an opportunity rather than damage limitation.

See above, they were stymied from the start by remained colleagues 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

See above, they were stymied from the start by remained colleagues 

 

CU and CM 2.0 are forms of Brexit, whether you like them or not. They involve leaving the EU, which is all that we voted for.

 

The majority of those MPs who supported Remain - and many Remain voters (like me) - are happy to compromise on a Soft Brexit, given that we lost, albeit narrowly.

The Leave winners are not prepared to compromise on anything aside from Hard Brexit / Blind Brexit.

 

....all the while led by a despicable PM who prioritises her political party over the nation and the future happiness of the British people, for years if not decades.

 

You'll be pleased to hear that I'm out of here for a few days.  

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

CU and CM 2.0 are forms of Brexit, whether you like them or not. They involve leaving the EU, which is all that we voted for.

 

The majority of those MPs who supported Remain - and many Remain voters (like me) - are happy to compromise on a Soft Brexit, given that we lost, albeit narrowly.

The Leave winners are not prepared to compromise on anything aside from Hard Brexit / Blind Brexit.

 

....all the while led by a despicable PM who prioritises her political party over the nation and the future happiness of the British people, for years if not decades.

 

You'll be pleased to hear that I'm out of here for a few days.  

As a Remain voter, what benefits do you pitch to leave voters about why CM 2.0 works for them?

 

Why do you think any Leave voter would have voted for that form of Brexit?

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

CU and CM 2.0 are forms of Brexit, whether you like them or not. They involve leaving the EU, which is all that we voted for.

 

The majority of those MPs who supported Remain - and many Remain voters (like me) - are happy to compromise on a Soft Brexit, given that we lost, albeit narrowly.

The Leave winners are not prepared to compromise on anything aside from Hard Brexit / Blind Brexit.

 

....all the while led by a despicable PM who prioritises her political party over the nation and the future happiness of the British people, for years if not decades.

 

You'll be pleased to hear that I'm out of here for a few days.  

Always happy to read your thoughts!

May is a disaster no doubt.

Customs union is a terrible idea, very restrictive on our ability to trade.

common market will enable Scotland to leave the union and have full access to the rest of the uk market - disaster.

[Voll Blau]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

See above, they were stymied from the start by remained colleagues 

Remainer colleagues that Leave voters had the chance to remove from office in 2017, but didn't.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

Remainer colleagues that Leave voters had the chance to remove from office in 2017, but didn't.

The ones that stood on a manifesto saying they would leave the EU?

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

Remainer colleagues that Leave voters had the chance to remove from office in 2017, but didn't.

Yeah it's almost as if some of them lied to get elected again isn't it?

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

It’s a bloody conspiracy!

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

The ones that stood on a manifesto saying they would leave the EU?

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Yeah it's almost as if some of them lied to get elected again isn't it?

 

 

 

Politicians in "telling porkies to get elected" shocker. I'm just saying if it was as big of a concern as folks are making it out to be now, then they should have done something about it when they had the chance. People were whinging on about the "Remainer Parliament" way before 2017, so this is just another excuse for me.

 

Having a group of MPs who don't believe hard enough in Brexit isn't the issue here, the issue is that there's no good way of leaving that doesn't make things worse for the country (at least in the short term, hopefully not for longer). Nobody wants to go down in history as one of the people who gave that decision final assent.

[RobHawk]

Gotta say I'm pretty frustrated with the ERG members revelling over the fact no compromise has yet to find a consensus and laying the blame at parliament's door for its attempted 'coup'.

 

Personally, I have seen many MPs vote for options that are a compromise for them whilst still doing what they believe is best for the country and upholding the referendum result. 

 

It's plain to see that in 1 week, parliament has got significantly closer to an agreement than Theresa may did in 3 years and the hard brexiteers never even got close and are hoping for an accidental no deal which I still don't think will happen. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Politicians in "telling porkies to get elected" shocker. I'm just saying if it was as big of a concern as folks are making it out to be now, then they should have done something about it when they had the chance. People were whinging on about the "Remainer Parliament" way before 2017, so this is just another excuse for me.

When your argument comes down to "well they lie anyway" you haven't really got much of one have you?

 

It's for this reason they had to give those guarantees - you can't blame people for believing them. Few politicians have ever blatantly lied in a way they did.

 

I never believed I would see many of our own parliament voting to overturn a democratic result, I fully expected it from the Lib Dems, the SNP and the North London based borgeousie Labour MP's but Tories and moderate Labour like Allen, Soubry and Cooper etc? I didn't see it coming at all.

[RobHawk]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

When your argument comes down to "well they lie anyway" you haven't really got much of one have you?

 

It's for this reason they had to give those guarantees - you can't blame people for believing them. Few politicians have ever blatantly lied in a way they did.

 

I never believed I would see many of our own parliament voting to overturn a democratic result, I fully expected it from the Lib Dems, the SNP and the North London based borgeousie Labour MP's but Tories and moderate Labour like Allen, Soubry and Cooper etc? I didn't see it coming at all.

And yet the vast majority of those you mentioned voted for something last night that would see us leave. 

 

Unlike many who are leavers that have refused to back any of the popular options in the house. They've had nothing short of its our way or the highway approach and have essentially blocked brexit in a number of guises. 

 

May not be exactly what they want but leave means leave and they stood on that manifesto too.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

When your argument comes down to "well they lie anyway" you haven't really got much of one have you?

 

It's for this reason they had to give those guarantees - you can't blame people for believing them. Few politicians have ever blatantly lied in a way they did.

 

I never believed I would see many of our own parliament voting to overturn a democratic result, I fully expected it from the Lib Dems, the SNP and the North London based borgeousie Labour MP's but Tories and moderate Labour like Allen, Soubry and Cooper etc? I didn't see it coming at all.

I did, I think I said so much in the aftermath of the referendum night. It was always going to be twisted and subverted. They have been puppets for so long now, they don’t know how to lead anymore.

[Jon the Hat]

14 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Gotta say I'm pretty frustrated with the ERG members revelling over the fact no compromise has yet to find a consensus and laying the blame at parliament's door for its attempted 'coup'.

 

Personally, I have seen many MPs vote for options that are a compromise for them whilst still doing what they believe is best for the country and upholding the referendum result. 

 

It's plain to see that in 1 week, parliament has got significantly closer to an agreement than Theresa may did in 3 years and the hard brexiteers never even got close and are hoping for an accidental no deal which I still don't think will happen. 

 

 

Are we ignoring that the Withdrawal agreement got more votes than any of the “alternatives”? These are a few lines on a bit of paper, miles from any sort of agreement and not shared with the E.U. don’t talk crap.

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Beechey said:

But then consider the first set of votes. Sizeable chunks of the Conservative Party are willing to budge at all. 157 Conservative MPs voted for no deal, 60 for EFTA/EEA. What do they want?

 

 

What annoys me even more are those who don't vote. Aren't they supposed to be representatives of something? Surely they must have an opinion FOR/AGAINST each idea. Not voting in this is a crime to the people.

 

[Voll Blau]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

When your argument comes down to "well they lie anyway" you haven't really got much of one have you?

 

It's for this reason they had to give those guarantees - you can't blame people for believing them. Few politicians have ever blatantly lied in a way they did.

 

I never believed I would see many of our own parliament voting to overturn a democratic result, I fully expected it from the Lib Dems, the SNP and the North London based borgeousie Labour MP's but Tories and moderate Labour like Allen, Soubry and Cooper etc? I didn't see it coming at all.

It's not my argument at all, I'm just saying that I think most of the country, surely, takes the word of most politicians (of all colours) with a pinch of salt?

 

My argument is that people have been moaning about this alleged "Remainer MPs" conspiracy for ages, even before the referendum, and what each MP personally campaigned for in 2016 was common knowledge at the time. For me, this kind of mess was always relatively likely to happen, regardless of who was in charge of running the gaff or which way they voted in the referendum. It's one of the reasons I chose Remain at the time. There is no conspiracy, it's just MPs finally accepting the reality of the situation a little too late.

 

As I've said before, whatever terms we leave on there are going to be potentially huge sections of Leave voters who feel massively betrayed anyway because they won't get what they thought they were going to get. That's the problem, something that was all things to all people can't be that in the real world.