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yorkie1999

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By yorkie1999, in General Chat

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Voll Blau

Voll Blau

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1 hour ago, peach0000 said:

Anyone else enjoying what a shit show Brexit is. I mean at this stage I couldn't really care what happens but it will be an entertaining watch. 

Having basically been told the other day that my job is fvcked in the event of no deal, no, I can't say that I am. Fvck this situation and fvck anyone who even remotely entertains the idea of going out without a deal.

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peach0000

peach0000

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2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Having basically been told the other day that my job is fvcked in the event of no deal, no, I can't say that I am. Fvck this situation and fvck anyone who even remotely entertains the idea of going out without a deal.

They'll be negative consequences to any possible outcome though. That particular one may be particularly bad for you personally but other scenarios will be bad for other. Me personally I can't see any outcome affecting me too badly so yeah I guess the whole thing is a bit entertaining for me. 

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

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3 hours ago, MattP said:

As a Remain voter, what benefits do you pitch to leave voters about why CM 2.0 works for them?

 

Why do you think any Leave voter would have voted for that form of Brexit?

 

Why wouldn't they? It gets you out of the political pillar, out of the defence and security pillar but keeps the economic pillar, whilst also keeping the UK distant from ever closer union and further integration. Also given the amount of older people I've spoken to that say this isn't what we voted for in 1975, well CM 2.0 is much closer to what they voted for in 1975. I genuinely don't understand how any Leave voter could think Remaining is preferable to it? Take the victory of being out of the political project.

 

I'll defend Leave voters from the ludicrous misrepresentations of them but I'm fed up with this 'it has to be exactly what we want' absolutist mentality. Tyranny of the majority undermines democracy as much as having second referendums to get the right result. But the thing is, it's not tyranny of majority, it's tyranny of the minority. For example, just after the referendum a poll released said 25% of Leave voters would favour single market membership over ending FoM - that gives you a 61-39 in favour of prioritising single market access over ending freedom of movement (assuming all Remainers prefer SM to FoM. There was a separate poll for the whole but I can't remember the result). Why should that be ignored because some abstract notion of Leave 'won'? This is where I really struggle with the Leave side because their attitude in the last 3 years really means that they deserve to lose the whole thing. 

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

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28 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Fair point but in addition to the above our strongest leverage point in all this was probably the threat of no deal. Stupidly, Labour asked the Cons to take this off the table which was silly daft but May never seemed to understand that no deal was something that the EU wanted to avoid... the idea that they themselves would push this button I would find surprising indeed. I think they’ll extend and extend big, but hey ho there’s no certainties in any of this!

 

20 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

My starting point in negotiations would have been to take the EU’s worst fear/outcome and make it my optimum priority to achieve at all costs and look very busy preparing for it and then let them talk me back to a position where they wanted to give me something. 

 

As well as not getting 39 billion - if we leave without their support blessing guidance involvement etc and make a success of it then their boat begins to rock as the demand in countries with a far right agenda wanting out of the EU grows.

 

I used to think this but I realise now it was naive. No deal is never an end point and for that reason using it as a negotiating tactic, even if 'prepared' for, was never credible. There would be a deal at some point and the price for entering into those negotiations would be accepting whatever was to be in the Withdrawal Agreement, exactly the position to EU has now outlined. Okay the EU wanted to avoid it, it will be particularly bad for Ireland, but the UK will suffer the most and will be the ones reaching out to the EU to come to an agreement - the price of starting that discussion would be exactly what had been discussed for two years.

 

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davieG

davieG

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3 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

A massive extension is coming as I'm unsure May has enough Kamikazee in her to take us down that route!

If they can get planning permission I hear the neighbours can be quite funny about it.

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Beechey

Beechey

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I'm just  baffled as to how we haven't ended up in EFTA with EEA membership. It's pretty much made perfectly for the UK (well we created it). Emergency brake on migration (Cameron failed to negotiate for this), lower (<50%) or no financial obligations, adopting around 9% of all EU acquis, of those 9%, the vast majority are internationally decided, and EFTA states retain the right to shape the legislation during the early stages within the EU, and the right to reject EU acquis (at certain cost though). We would retain full access to the single market. We would be paying into programmes that we use, and voluntarily put money in through EEA grants, and we'd be out of every political EU institution, and able to make our own trade agreements, and we would instantly become a party to all of EFTA's trade agreements. We would be given (likely) 2 of the 5 seats on the EFTA Court.

 

How people see no deal at all as better than that is completely beyond me.

Edited by Beechey
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Strokes

Strokes

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37 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Interesting how leave voters have changed their stance with regards to EFTA and subsequently CM 2.0

 

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Leave.eu was not an official campaign and they have a total of 15,000 thumbs up. I'm sure their are examples of leave voters changing their stances but then you guys are welcoming of changed opinions aren't you? Otherwise we might as well kill the idea of a second referendum.

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Legend_in_blue

Legend_in_blue

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Posted (edited)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47794235

 

May calls for further extension bringing Corbyn onboard.  How she expects this to be sorted by May 22 though, she's still in fantasy land.  Won't happen.  

 

It's going the way I called it.  A long extension, thrash out the options and then bring it back to the people.

 

 

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

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Just now, Legend_in_blue said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47794235

 

May calls for further extension bringing Corbyn onboard.

 

It's going the way I called it.  A long extension, thrash out the options and then bring it back to the people.

She said small extension, so small we don't take part in European Elections. 

 

I don't see how it can come back to the people given that needs a parliamentary majority and it won't get one.

 

Will Corbyn even be up for having his fingerprints on this? I wouldn't be.

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Legend_in_blue

Legend_in_blue

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3 minutes ago, MattP said:

She said small extension, so small we don't take part in European Elections. 

 

I don't see how it can come back to the people given that needs a parliamentary majority and it won't get one.

 

Will Corbyn even be up for having his fingerprints on this? I wouldn't be.

 

She will have to extend her extension.  

 

She's a total fool.

 

It will come back to the people once the MPs know what the deal is.  As was said yesterday, it is difficult to put through this confirmatory vote when we are unsure as to what form of the deal we are confirming.  Once this is known, I can see this getting through.

 

If she doesn't bring Corbyn onboard then she needs to go.  She should have gone already.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

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Just now, Kopfkino said:

Pray that as many as possible of Baker et al may see this as reason to resign the whip

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the guys like Baker and Francois did - as you say it might not be a bad thing given how embarrassing some of them have been recently. 

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EnderbyFox

EnderbyFox

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I'm sure I heard her say "any deal must include agreement to the current withdrawal agreement" not sure how this changes anything? The numbers just aren't there for it to pass? Cannot see Corbyn agreeing to anything as it lessens the chances of a GE

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

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Just now, Legend_in_blue said:

She will have to extend her extension.  

 

She's a total fool.

 

It will come back to the people once the MPs know what the deal is.  As was said yesterday, it is difficult to put through this confirmatory vote when we are unsure as to what form of the dea we are confirming.  Once this is known, I can see this getting through.

 

If she doesn't bring Corbyn onboard then she needs to go.  She should have gone already.

The conformatory vote has already been defeated twice in parliament and numerous Labour MP's like Snell, Flint etc have said they'll never vote for it.

 

Do you think Corbyn is going to want this to go back to the people? That could destroy everything he wants.

 

We are clearly heading for a soft Brexit now - always likely eventually but unless the hard Brexiteer Tories bring down the government it's happening. 

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Buce

Buce

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15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’ve given up hope of anyone having integrity on this subject.

 

Politicians with integrity?

 

An intriguing suggestion but it'll never catch on, mate.

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Buce

Buce

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"I have just come from chairing seven hours of cabinet meetings focused on finding a route out of the current impasse – one that will deliver the Brexit the British people voted for and allow us to move on and begin bringing our divided country back together.

I know there are some who are so fed up with delay and endless arguments that they would like to leave with no deal next week.

I have always been clear that we could make a success of no deal in the long term. But leaving with a deal is the best solution. So, we will need a further extension of article 50 – one that is as short as possible and which ends when we pass a deal. And we need to be clear what such an extension is for – to ensure we leave in a timely and orderly way.

This debate, this division, cannot drag on much longer. It is putting members of Parliament and everyone else under immense pressure and it is doing damage to our politics.

Despite the best efforts of MPs, the process that the House of Commons has tried to lead has not come up with an answer. So, today, I am taking action to break the logjam: I am offering to sit down with the leader of the opposition and to try to agree a plan – that we would both stick to – to ensure that we leave the European Union and that we do so with a deal.

Any plan would have to agree the current withdrawal agreement – it has already been negotiated with the 27 other members, and the EU has repeatedly said that it cannot and will not be reopened.

What we need to focus on is our future relationship with the EU. The ideal outcome of this process would be to agree an approach on a future relationship that delivers on the result of the referendum, that both the leader of the opposition and I could put to the House for approval, and which I could then take to next week’s European Council.

However, if we cannot agree on a single unified approach, then we would instead agree a number of options for the future relationship that we could put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue. Crucially, the government stands ready to abide by the decision of the House. But, to make this process work, the opposition would need to agree to this too.

The government would then bring forward the withdrawal agreement Bill. We would want to agree a timetable for this Bill to ensure it is passed before 22 May so that the United Kingdom need not take part in European Parliamentary elections.

This is a difficult time for everyone. Passions are running high on all sides of the argument. But we can and must find the compromises that will deliver what the British people voted for. This is a decisive moment in the story of these islands. And it requires national unity to deliver the national interest."

 

So, she wants Corbyn to agree to a plan, but it has to be her deal. The only way that works is by putting her deal up for a referendum, surely? Is that what she's getting at? :dunno:

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