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[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Like this? Have you done it in other ways then?

 

Wouldn't dream of cheating the system full stop I should have said 

[Foxxed]

15 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Either eventuality would require Tories voting for it, though.

 

I don't see the likelihood of a vote of no confidence in their own government and I have doubts that they'd want an election either, which would presumably take place with May still leader. I think it's more brinkmanship from May, tbh.

I was assuming she'd step down. They'd vote for a new leader and then call a GE.

 

Seems like the most sensible course of action: Vote on who you want to negotiate the deal. Vote on the deal. Then take Brexit or leave it.

 

Assumes we'll have time to renegotiate and the Tories can oust May and will want to call a new election with a new leader though.

[Buce]

3 hours ago, Foxxed said:

I was assuming she'd step down. They'd vote for a new leader and then call a GE.

 

Seems like the most sensible course of action: Vote on who you want to negotiate the deal. Vote on the deal. Then take Brexit or leave it.

 

Assumes we'll have time to renegotiate and the Tories can oust May and will want to call a new election with a new leader though.

 

This is interesting:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/30/furious-tory-mps-tell-theresa-may-they-will-block-snap-election

[Alf Bentley]

7 hours ago, Foxxed said:

I was assuming she'd step down. They'd vote for a new leader and then call a GE.

 

Seems like the most sensible course of action: Vote on who you want to negotiate the deal. Vote on the deal. Then take Brexit or leave it.

 

Assumes we'll have time to renegotiate and the Tories can oust May and will want to call a new election with a new leader though.

 

We currently have 12 days until we leave the EU with No Deal - and 10 days (?) until we have to tell the EU if we want to ask for a longer extension and tell them the purpose of that extension.

Unless Tory MPs agreed a single candidate to be new leader, it would take weeks to elect a new leader. As Tory MPs are bitterly divided over Brexit and a dozen MPs seem interested in becoming leader, there's little chance of that.

 

I suppose May could stand down, announce a leadership election and an interim leader could be appointed. But could they agree on an interim leader? Tory MPs were up in arms about Gove v. Liddington for that a few days ago.

 

Even if they did, unless we accepted No Deal (which parliament doesn't want), that interim PM would have to go to the EU in 10 days to request a longer extension and present a plan for how we'd use it.

The interim PM could indicate that the party was likely to call a general election, I suppose. But they wouldn't be able to bind the future elected leader/PM by committing to that or any other Brexit policy.

Massive risk that the EU would pull the plug and refuse any extension rather than accept such continued chaos and uncertainty....and that's without considering the potential for confidence votes in parliament.

 

I'm sure May will be gone sooner rather than later and a general election is distinctly possible.

But probably only after the first stage of Brexit is sorted out: either No Deal or PM May going to the EU to request a longer extension for some as-yet-undefined purpose...

[Foxxed]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

We currently have 12 days until we leave the EU with No Deal - and 10 days (?) until we have to tell the EU if we want to ask for a longer extension and tell them the purpose of that extension.

Unless Tory MPs agreed a single candidate to be new leader, it would take weeks to elect a new leader. As Tory MPs are bitterly divided over Brexit and a dozen MPs seem interested in becoming leader, there's little chance of that.

 

I suppose May could stand down, announce a leadership election and an interim leader could be appointed. But could they agree on an interim leader? Tory MPs were up in arms about Gove v. Liddington for that a few days ago.

 

Even if they did, unless we accepted No Deal (which parliament doesn't want), that interim PM would have to go to the EU in 10 days to request a longer extension and present a plan for how we'd use it.

The interim PM could indicate that the party was likely to call a general election, I suppose. But they wouldn't be able to bind the future elected leader/PM by committing to that or any other Brexit policy.

Massive risk that the EU would pull the plug and refuse any extension rather than accept such continued chaos and uncertainty....and that's without considering the potential for confidence votes in parliament.

 

I'm sure May will be gone sooner rather than later and a general election is distinctly possible.

But probably only after the first stage of Brexit is sorted out: either No Deal or PM May going to the EU to request a longer extension for some as-yet-undefined purpose...

Ten days to tell the EU what we want. No problem. We've had plenty of time to think about it.

 

"What do we want!?"

 

"Better things!"

 

"How do we want to get them!?"

 

"By leaving the EU!"

[Buce]

 

Finally, someone tells it as it is:

 

He said 90% of the cabinet had “no idea how workers think, live, work and behave” and that it would not be these politicians “born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities” who would suffer from Brexit.

 

Michael Roth - German deputy foreign minister.

[urban.spaceman]

Finally, a faith school I can actually support:

 

 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Finally, a faith school I can actually support:

 

 

 

I don't see why you would support this:

 

Prospective headteacher Ezra Bridger said that the school's religious ethos would "permeate all aspects of the curriculum".

 

Isn't it that kind of indoctrination that you so vehemently oppose when it's a Muslim faith school?

[urban.spaceman]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I don't see why you would support this:

 

Prospective headteacher Ezra Bridger said that the school's religious ethos would "permeate all aspects of the curriculum".

 

Isn't it that kind of indoctrination that you so vehemently oppose when it's a Muslim faith school?

[Nick]

29 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Finally, a faith school I can actually support:

 

 

Very good, I got a few lines in before the penny dropped.

[urban.spaceman]

6 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Very good, I got a few lines in before the penny dropped.

One parent, Han, told the NSS: "I want my children to go to school with kids from all different backgrounds, to learn together and to be free to form their own beliefs. If we fund Jedi schools, then local Sith parents and Pastafarian families will be demanding their own separate schools.

"I don't want my children being brought up in hokey religions."

Aayla, a local Jedi, also expressed doubts, saying: "Faith based schools go against my Jedi values of non-discrimination and freedom of conscience. My message to parents is that these aren't the schools you're looking for."

[Buce]

22 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

[Beechey]

Opposition parties coalescing around an EFTA/EEA type option it seems. It was battered last time due to a mixture of abstentions (not anymore it seems), and lots of Conservative MPs voting against. It may be able to get a majority - not depends on whether Conservatives who voted against would prefer a soft Brexit or no Brexit at all.

[Buce]

15 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Opposition parties coalescing around an EFTA/EEA type option it seems. It was battered last time due to a mixture of abstentions (not anymore it seems), and lots of Conservative MPs voting against. It may be able to get a majority - not depends on whether Conservatives who voted against would prefer a soft Brexit or no Brexit at all.

 

 

May has ordered Cabinet members to boycott all indicative votes.

[Guest MattP]

Surprised Labour is whipping on that - clear breach of manifesto and their voters now know they don't want to see the end of FoM, if the Tories can't capitalise on that in the North and Midlands there is no hope.

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Surprised Labour is whipping on that - clear breach of manifesto and their voters now know they don't want to see the end of FoM, if the Tories can't capitalise on that in the North and Midlands there is no hope.

 

I think the Tories are too busy tearing themselves apart to capitalise on anything.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I think the Tories are too busy tearing themselves apart to capitalise on anything.

If they don’t, someone else will.....

[Finnegan]

Isn't CM 2.0 basically all of the bits of the EU the Leavers want rid of but with none of the big cash bonuses for farming and the arts and all that jazz? 

 

Basically, you'd have to be an absolute retard to want that over revoking A50? 

[Legend_in_blue]

I think the vote should be brought back to the people with the options as follows:

 

CM 2.0

CM 2.1

CM 2.2

CM 2.25

 

Sorted.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

Isn't CM 2.0 basically all of the bits of the EU the Leavers want rid of but with none of the big cash bonuses for farming and the arts and all that jazz? 

 

Basically, you'd have to be an absolute retard to want that over revoking A50? 

 

Some truth in what you say on the substance, if by "Leavers" you mean everyone from May to the ERG - and not the people voting for CM 2.0 or Customs Union, which involve, er, Leaving the EU.....

On the cash, we wouldn't be receiving farming handouts but, on the other hand, we'd be paying a lot less into EU coffers - though still making some payments, I presume, for Single Market membership.

 

As someone who voted Remain, I'd agree that on the substance revoking A50 and remaining in the EU would be better.....but it would also be a democratic outrage that could cause serious turmoil in the UK.

 

One of the few things that is clear is that we voted to Leave (unless that's overturned by a second referendum, which would also be a high-risk venture re. outcome and public order).

CM 2.0 does involve leaving the EU, whatever Hard Brexiteers might say - and would avoid most of the economic damage, though not the loss of democratic say, loss of political influence, joint projects etc.

 

CM 2.0 = Wrongly perceived as "not Brexit" and a democratic outrage  by many Hard Brexiteers

Revoking A50 = Rightly perceived as "not Brexit" and a democratic outrage by most Leave voters and even some Remain voters 

[theessexfox]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-no-deal-science-erc-funding-scientists-eu-dominic-raab-a8783166.html

 

Not a new article but details some of the implications on science funding of a no-deal Brexit.

 

Quote at the end: "Given that the future of the UK’s economy should lie in jobs from science, innovation and technology, Brexit is clearly undermining the very fabric of our future wealth, before we even start the thing".

[BlueSi13]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Some truth in what you say on the substance, if by "Leavers" you mean everyone from May to the ERG - and not the people voting for CM 2.0 or Customs Union, which involve, er, Leaving the EU.....

On the cash, we wouldn't be receiving farming handouts but, on the other hand, we'd be paying a lot less into EU coffers - though still making some payments, I presume, for Single Market membership.

 

As someone who voted Remain, I'd agree that on the substance revoking A50 and remaining in the EU would be better.....but it would also be a democratic outrage that could cause serious turmoil in the UK.

 

One of the few things that is clear is that we voted to Leave (unless that's overturned by a second referendum, which would also be a high-risk venture re. outcome and public order).

CM 2.0 does involve leaving the EU, whatever Hard Brexiteers might say - and would avoid most of the economic damage, though not the loss of democratic say, loss of political influence, joint projects etc.

 

CM 2.0 = Wrongly perceived as "not Brexit" and a democratic outrage  by many Hard Brexiteers

Revoking A50 = Rightly perceived as "not Brexit" and a democratic outrage by most Leave voters and even some Remain voters 

CM 2.0 means keeping Freedom of Movement, remaining in the Single Market and remaining in the Customs Union (so no independent trade deals with the rest of the globe).  Not only that but the UK is also removed from the negotiating table.  So much for sovereignty.  

 

It is the absolute definition of BRINO and any Conservative that votes for that should be hung drawn and quartered.  Not a single leaver I have ever met or heard off would regard this as acceptable.  It's perhaps the worst possible outcome (including remain).

 

For the European Union however it would almost represent a fantasy scenario, keeps Britain locked in but voiceless and powerless, a dream of the EU for decades.  Biggest thorn in the side successfully removed.

[Alf Bentley]

16 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

CM 2.0 means keeping Freedom of Movement, remaining in the Single Market and remaining in the Customs Union (so no independent trade deals with the rest of the globe).  Not only that but the UK is also removed from the negotiating table.  So much for sovereignty.  

 

It is the absolute definition of BRINO and any Conservative that votes for that should be hung drawn and quartered.  Not a single leaver I have ever met or heard off would regard this as acceptable.  It's perhaps the worst possible outcome (including remain).

 

For the European Union however it would almost represent a fantasy scenario, keeps Britain locked in but voiceless and powerless, a dream of the EU for decades.  Biggest thorn in the side successfully removed.

 

No point me repeating the same circular arguments, though I agree that Remain would be better than CM 2.0 as regards substance, economic impact and democratic influence.

However, getting to Remain via revoking, when there's no proof that there's been a seismic shift in public opinion, would be democratically outrageous and dangerous re. future public disorder & anti-democratic extremism.

I'm not even convinced that there's a case for a second referendum yet, though it may become necessary to avoid No Deal if nothing else wins support.

 

Whatever anyone expected or views as acceptable, all we voted for in 2016 was to leave the EU - and CM 2.0 would involve leaving the EU, whether it's viewed as BRINO or not. 

 

I'm all in favour of Tories being hung, drawn and quartered, though.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

No point me repeating the same circular arguments, though I agree that Remain would be better than CM 2.0 as regards substance, economic impact and democratic influence.

However, getting to Remain via revoking, when there's no proof that there's been a seismic shift in public opinion, would be democratically outrageous and dangerous re. future public disorder & anti-democratic extremism.

I'm not even convinced that there's a case for a second referendum yet, though it may become necessary to avoid No Deal if nothing else wins support.

 

Whatever anyone expected or views as acceptable, all we voted for in 2016 was to leave the EU - and CM 2.0 would involve leaving the EU, whether it's viewed as BRINO or not. 

 

I'm all in favour of Tories being hung, drawn and quartered, though.

CM2.0 is not a form brexit, it’s a form of remain. Absolute shambles if it happens and will definitely see a rise in support for extreme parties in our parliament. 

Honestly I think you would get the same response from revoking without a referendum. So we might as well do that if they think this will fly.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

CM2.0 is not a form brexit, it’s a form of remain. Absolute shambles if it happens and will definitely see a rise in support for extreme parties in our parliament. 

Honestly I think you would get the same response from revoking without a referendum. So we might as well do that if they think this will fly.

 

It's a simple fact that CM 2.0 would involve us Leaving the EU, not Remaining members of it. 

 

I get it that you don't like that particular form of Leaving - I can't say that I'm happy about such an outcome myself.

 

You have your own definition of Brexit. But that definition wasn't on the ballot paper. No definition was. All that was on the ballot paper was Leave/Remain - and CM 2.0 or CU would involve Leaving, not Remaining.

 

One thing is pretty clear: whatever the outcome, most people are going to be unhappy with it.....though the chances are still quite high, I think, of you getting your No Deal dream in 11 days....