The gym

[Unabomber]

On 02/03/2023 at 14:28, ian__marshall said:

Hey Pete sorry for the slow reply, been really busy with work and life in general and sorry for the long post. 

 

Firstly you can build muscle and lose fat at the same time. With the right dietary adjustments to ensure that you're consuming adequate quantities of macronutrients to achieve your goals, along with the right combination of amino acids you can achieve growth and lose fat. In fact if you're caloric intake remains the same, as your muscles grow your body will utilise the stored fat for energy to bridge any deficit. 

 

From what you've said it sounds like you're quite active but clearly you seem a little dissatisfied with your progress which potentially raises a few points. 

 

Firstly, you've said you're consuming 2000-2300 calories per day as part of a high protein low carb diet. If that's the case presumably you're consuming a sizeable amount of Fat, and if those calories are coming from meat most likely they'll be saturated Fat. If that is correct then this is the first area I'd look to tidy up aiming to consume high protein foods low in fat or ones that are higher in unsaturated Fats. It is worth noting that for a healthy active Adult, Fats aren't necessarily bad despite the bad press they get and are a really important part of hormone production so it's important that you don't reduce these too drastically otherwise it'll be counterproductive to your goals.

 

Secondly, as mentioned earlier it does sound like you're quite active so that makes me question the intensity you're working at. Now this is a problem (myself included at times) for a lot of experienced trainers let alone people who are relatively new to training so don't be concerned if you fall into this category. It can be really hard when you start out to gauge what an actual intense workout looks like and there's a fine balance between intensity and volume so rest and recuperation are also important considerations in order to avoid injury. I came across a good youtube video the other week posted by Mike Thurston and Dorian Yates where they're training Legs out in Marbella and Dorian talks at length about working sets and intensity levels. For the record, said video is quite insightful on the topic of intensity but a lot of the other content discussed is a bit outdated so I'd be selective in what you take from it assuming you watch it. 

 

The final point I'd highlight, is that you mention working only on your upper body. Unless there's some biomechanical or physiological reason then it's important to incorporate lower body exercise into your training plan. Not only will lower body training improve your overall aesthetic look, but it will also aid with Core stability, and hormone release so these are good exercises to include so long as you are physically able and there's no biomechanical reason for being unable to do said exercises. 

 

Based upon what you've outlined maybe consider something like Cross-Fit as an option. It's not something that is hugely of interest to me and my training goals but for generalised fitness it's worth consideration. 

 

If traditional resistance training is more your thing, I'd check out some of Jeff Cavaliere's videos on his Athlean-X youtube channel. Jeff's excellent in my opinion and he's very much focused on the science of anatomy and biomechanics.

 

Alternatively if you're looking for content more focused towards Resistance Bands, James Grage and his Undersun Fitness channel are a decent watch, although James can occasionally disappear down a rabbit hole on some rather controversial topics so again approach with caution. I did undertake his TA2 Build - Resistance Band programme last year out of curiosity and put on circa 6kg in 3 months whilst marginally reducing my body fat percentage and I personally quite enjoyed the programme, although admittedly it won't be for everyone. 

 

The best advice I can offer is be mindful of your own body composition in terms of your strengths and limitations and don't compare yourself to others (not everyone can get to the insane levels some exhibit [There's a great video on Athlean-X about this]). Also don't try to a be a superhero in the weights room, stick to what you can lift safely and be aware that the process does take time. 

 

Good luck with your journey.

Out of interest how can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? Gaining means calorie surplus and losing means calorie deficit?

Edited 3 March 2023 by Unabomber

[ian__marshall]

3 hours ago, Unabomber said:

Out of interest how can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? Gaining means calorie surplus and losing means calorie deficit?

Calories aren't a measure of weight, they're a measure of energy. Body mass (Tissues, Water, Bone) is measured by weight. Adipose Tissue (Fat) is stored energy (I.e. Surplus calories).

 

Let's assume that for arguments sake a person has a resting basal metabolic rate of 1500kcal per day. Said person consumes 2500kcal per day. Their daily activity accounts for 500kcal and they undertake a resistance training session which requires an additional 250kcal to perform leaving a caloric surplus of 250kcal. If we work off the principle that you need a caloric surplus of 300-500kcal per day to build muscle mass, that leaves a deficit of 50-250kcal assuming no further foods are ingested. If free glucose isn't available in the blood, and glycogen stores have been depleted the body will break down the stored fat into glucose and utilise this for energy hence a reduction in fat mass.

 

Of course there are other factors that play into this such as whether the person has created enough micro trauma to the muscle fibres during their training to stimulate a repair response and trigger growth hormone release, whether their cortisol levels are controlled and being minimised, hydration levels, rest and recovery, adequate dietary protein/amino acid profiles, etc, etc. Also whilst this process can continue for a long time (based on the fact that there are roughly 7,700kcal per kg of body fat) it will lessen more and more as fat levels decrease as fundamentally the body does require fat to function, so when fat levels drop to a minimum level for that individual they'll eventually go into a catabolic state for energy production and to lower their basal metabolic rate for survival. 

 

All of the above is why you'll often see people aesthetically lose size (fat) but maintain a a constant weight as muscle is denser by volume than fat so their body fat levels drop and their muscle mass increases. As they add muscle they'll then need to increase their caloric intake to meet the metabolic demands of the added muscle, but so long as their body fat percentage isn't extremely low they won't necessarily require a caloric surplus to continue muscle growth. 

 

Edited 3 March 2023 by ian__marshall

[JonnyBoy]

18 hours ago, Unabomber said:

Out of interest how can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? Gaining means calorie surplus and losing means calorie deficit?

 

you can't do both unless you are completely new to weight lifting (newby gains) and unless you take anabolic steroids 

 

 

[Unabomber]

10 minutes ago, JonnyBoy said:

 

you can't do both unless you are completely new to weight lifting (newby gains) and unless you take anabolic steroids 

 

 

This is what I thought 

[UniFox21]

7 hours ago, Unabomber said:

This is what I thought 

Body recomposition basically, takes longer than cutting or bulking, and more experienced you are in lifting the less impact and changes you'll see 

[TJQuik]

On 04/03/2023 at 14:02, JonnyBoy said:

 

you can't do both unless you are completely new to weight lifting (newby gains) and unless you take anabolic steroids 

 

 

Completely wrong

[grobyfox1990]

Anyone who wears a cap (even more so backwards) in the gym is a definite nonce

[Costock_Fox]

1 hour ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Anyone who wears a cap (even more so backwards) in the gym is a definite nonce

Agree with this. Saw a couple of backwards cap nonces in my gym the other day.

 

Also saw a bloke walking backwards on the treadmill, fair play!

[JonnyBoy]

On 08/03/2023 at 07:52, TJQuik said:

Completely wrong

haha. Enlighten me 

 

Science. 

[Bordersfox]

1 minute ago, JonnyBoy said:

haha. Enlighten me 

 

Science. 

Read @ian__marshallposts above for enlightenment.  

[TJQuik]

1 hour ago, JonnyBoy said:

haha. Enlighten me 

 

Science. 

To make muscle you need energy, water and protein. If you're too skinny then you'll need to bulk up, but if you're losing weight the energy from your fat reserves will do the job. It doesn't matter if you're new to the gym or not.

 

If you're already lean and dieting down further you'll obviously bottleneck how much muscle you can gain though. If this is what you meant apologies for the confusion.

[Itsthejoeker]

9 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

To make muscle you need energy, water and protein. If you're too skinny then you'll need to bulk up, but if you're losing weight the energy from your fat reserves will do the job. It doesn't matter if you're new to the gym or not.

 

If you're already lean and dieting down further you'll obviously bottleneck how much muscle you can gain though. If this is what you meant apologies for the confusion.

Yup. 
 

whilst it’s anecdotal, I’ve been on maybe 1800 cals for the last 8 months (500 deficit) and have gained mass whilst losing fat purely from my body utilising my fat reserves for energy over food. 
 

move been lifting for almost a decade so it’s not newbie gains. 

[TJQuik]

47 minutes ago, Itsthejoeker said:

Yup. 
 

whilst it’s anecdotal, I’ve been on maybe 1800 cals for the last 8 months (500 deficit) and have gained mass whilst losing fat purely from my body utilising my fat reserves for energy over food. 
 

move been lifting for almost a decade so it’s not newbie gains. 

I'm sure you know what you're doing but 1800 sounds like a big cut!

[Itsthejoeker]

3 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

I'm sure you know what you're doing but 1800 sounds like a big cut!

I’m a big boy but I operate really well on a big deficit due to the excess I’m carrying. 
 

Probably 104kg right now, plenty of LISS cardio and six PPL sessions a week. 

[TJQuik]

1 hour ago, Itsthejoeker said:

I’m a big boy but I operate really well on a big deficit due to the excess I’m carrying. 
 

Probably 104kg right now, plenty of LISS cardio and six PPL sessions a week. 

Good for you mate, exactly my routine!

 

This might be out of nowhere but I think one of the worst things about modern society is the glamourisation of people in perfect shape... once you actually become that person you realise you are the weirdo and not the people who don't panic when they eat a slice of pizza!

[JonnyBoy]

4 hours ago, Itsthejoeker said:

Yup. 
 

whilst it’s anecdotal, I’ve been on maybe 1800 cals for the last 8 months (500 deficit) and have gained mass whilst losing fat purely from my body utilising my fat reserves for energy over food. 
 

move been lifting for almost a decade so it’s not newbie gains. 

Genuinely out of interest, how have you measured that you have gained mass? Are you saying you have eaten at a calorie defect, whilst burning fat, AND putting on weight? (Obv muscle weighs more than fat) 

[Itsthejoeker]

1 minute ago, JonnyBoy said:

Genuinely out of interest, how have you measured that you have gained mass? Are you saying you have eaten at a calorie defect, whilst burning fat, AND putting on weight? (Obv muscle weighs more than fat) 

No, that’s why it’s anecdotal in fairness but there are studies that show it’s possible. Have a look for “body decomposition”. 
 

The way I’ve figured it is, my caloric deficit should have me burning around 1-1.5lb a week, my scales read a lot lower than that and whilst your body does burn fat slower in prolonged periods of dieting it doesn't to the extent of the rate of my weight loss. Plus, anecdotally again, I can see the increase in muscle mass in the mirror. 

[Unabomber]

7 minutes ago, JonnyBoy said:

Genuinely out of interest, how have you measured that you have gained mass? Are you saying you have eaten at a calorie defect, whilst burning fat, AND putting on weight? (Obv muscle weighs more than fat) 

Not to be a dick but I agree with you. This isn’t possible. Of course body recomp happens for newbies but beyond that you can’t gain lean muscle and lose fat without using.

[Unabomber]

2 minutes ago, Itsthejoeker said:

No, that’s why it’s anecdotal in fairness but there are studies that show it’s possible. Have a look for “body decomposition”. 
 

The way I’ve figured it is, my caloric deficit should have me burning around 1-1.5lb a week, my scales read a lot lower than that and whilst your body does burn fat slower in prolonged periods of dieting it doesn't to the extent of the rate of my weight loss. Plus, anecdotally again, I can see the increase in muscle mass in the mirror. 

You see an increase in muscle mass cos you’re losing body fat due to your cut 

[Itsthejoeker]

1 minute ago, Unabomber said:

You see an increase in muscle mass cos you’re losing body fat due to your cut 

I know my body, I carry very little fat around my delts, traps and arms. I’ve gained size on them and it’s not fat. 
 

it won’t let me post the link but there’s a number of journals confirming that body recomp is possible in trained athletes. 

 

[Bordersfox]

4 minutes ago, Itsthejoeker said:

I know my body, I carry very little fat around my delts, traps and arms. I’ve gained size on them and it’s not fat. 
 

it won’t let me post the link but there’s a number of journals confirming that body recomp is possible in trained athletes. 

 

You're probably wasting your breath mate.  There's already been enough posted on here about body recomp for anyone who actually wants to learn.  

 

I've lost a stone since Christmas (with plenty more to go by the way) but have steadily increased my load on strength training at the same time.  I'm an experienced lifter albeit had some time off for an injury.   

 

But that's probably just my bones getting stronger or something 🙄

[TJQuik]

"Body recomp is impossible unless you're a newbie" comes to you from the same studio that brought you "drink a protein shake after every workout".

[Itsthejoeker]

“Despite the common belief that building muscle and losing fat at the same time is only plausible in novice/obese individuals, the literature provided supports that trained individuals can also experience body recomposition. Individuals' training status, the exercise interventions, and their baseline body composition can influence the magnitude of muscle gained and fat lost. Resistance training coupled with dietary strategies has been shown to augment this phenomenon.”

 

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/fulltext/2020/10000/body_recomposition__can_trained_individuals_build.3.aspx

[Izzy]

I've started to do lunges at the gym.

 

It's a big step forward for me.

[Costock_Fox]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I've started to do lunges at the gym.

 

It's a big step forward for me.

Out