Also In The News

[davieG]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Watching the news is so depressing these days. World economy looking shaky, trade wars, Trump, Brexit, Brazilian rain forest being cut down at a record rates, climate change, plastic pollution. Thank God I’m in the last quarter.

....and this sort of happening, all too often.

 

A police officer has been stabbed with a machete in a "frenzied" attack as he tried to stop a van in Leyton, east London.

The officer, aged in his 30s, was stabbed multiple times but managed to use his Taser to subdue the suspect.

His colleague then stepped in to arrest the suspect following the stabbing, shortly after midnight.

Police said he was expected to recover from his injuries.

The uniformed officers had attempted to stop a van on the junction between Coopers Lane and Leyton High Road, the Met said.

The vehicle had initially failed to stop but the driver then suddenly pulled over got out and injured the officer, the force said.

Insp Julia James, from North East Command Unit, said: "This was a sudden and brutal attack on a uniformed officer carrying out their duties.

"What began as a routine vehicle stop has transformed very quickly and unexpectedly into an unprovoked attack with a weapon."

A man, aged in his 50s, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of GBH and taken to an east London police station for questioning.

 

....and

 

Knife possession offences involving women in England have increased steeply since 2014 - rising by at least 10% every year, police figures show.

Some 1,509 offences were recorded in 2018 - an increase of 73% over the last five years - data obtained following freedom of information requests shows.

Youth workers say some women carry weapons for gangs as they are less likely to be stopped by police.

[purpleronnie]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Watching the news is so depressing these days. World economy looking shaky, trade wars, Trump, Brexit, Brazilian rain forest being cut down at a record rates, climate change, plastic pollution. Thank God I’m in the last quarter.

You're a glass half empty kind a fella aren't you?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Watching the news is so depressing these days. World economy looking shaky, trade wars, Trump, Brexit, Brazilian rain forest being cut down at a record rates, climate change, plastic pollution. Thank God I’m in the last quarter.

But still much better than morning TV.

[bovril]

2 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Watching the news is so depressing these days. World economy looking shaky, trade wars, Trump, Brexit, Brazilian rain forest being cut down at a record rates, climate change, plastic pollution. Thank God I’m in the last quarter.

Sometimes I feel like we made a pact with the Devil - Leicester winning the title in exchange for the slow decline of Western civilization. 

[WigstonWanderer]

25 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

You're a glass half empty kind a fella aren't you?

Certainly can’t see much to be happy-flappy about 

[yorkie1999]

41 minutes ago, davieG said:

....and this sort of happening, all too often.

 

A police officer has been stabbed with a machete in a "frenzied" attack as he tried to stop a van in Leyton, east London.

The officer, aged in his 30s, was stabbed multiple times but managed to use his Taser to subdue the suspect.

His colleague then stepped in to arrest the suspect following the stabbing, shortly after midnight.

Police said he was expected to recover from his injuries.

The uniformed officers had attempted to stop a van on the junction between Coopers Lane and Leyton High Road, the Met said.

The vehicle had initially failed to stop but the driver then suddenly pulled over got out and injured the officer, the force said.

Insp Julia James, from North East Command Unit, said: "This was a sudden and brutal attack on a uniformed officer carrying out their duties.

"What began as a routine vehicle stop has transformed very quickly and unexpectedly into an unprovoked attack with a weapon."

A man, aged in his 50s, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of GBH and taken to an east London police station for questioning.

 

....and

 

Knife possession offences involving women in England have increased steeply since 2014 - rising by at least 10% every year, police figures show.

Some 1,509 offences were recorded in 2018 - an increase of 73% over the last five years - data obtained following freedom of information requests shows.

Youth workers say some women carry weapons for gangs as they are less likely to be stopped by police.

I think one of the problems is the lack of deterrent in this country. Just been crete on holiday, went past what i thought was an army barrack which turned out to be a prison, open aired compound, 4 armed watch towers and 20 foot high barbed wire. Lady on the coach said the prisoners are fed by their families, so no family no food, hence no crime in that area.  I'd have a couple of huge prison ships anchored in the north sea without any windows, if you get done for violence, 6 months on one with only bread and water.

[David Guiza]

26 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I think one of the problems is the lack of deterrent in this country. Just been crete on holiday, went past what i thought was an army barrack which turned out to be a prison, open aired compound, 4 armed watch towers and 20 foot high barbed wire. Lady on the coach said the prisoners are fed by their families, so no family no food, hence no crime in that area.  I'd have a couple of huge prison ships anchored in the north sea without any windows, if you get done for violence, 6 months on one with only bread and water.

Lack of a deterrent is a bit of myth though, isn't it? 

 

There is no evidence in America, for example, that the death penalty reduces the crime rates. If people aren't put off by being sentenced to the end of their lives, then I think that shows serious crime goes beyond deterrence. Particularly with knife crime, money, upbringing and opportunities play a key role. I really don't think that our prison system comes in to it in the vast majority of cases. 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

You're a glass half empty kind a fella aren't you?

 

Yeah let's all stick our head in the sand, watch Love Island and pretend none of those things are terrifying. 

[yorkie1999]

6 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Lack of a deterrent is a bit of myth though, isn't it? 

 

There is no evidence in America, for example, that the death penalty reduces the crime rates. If people aren't put off by being sentenced to the end of their lives, then I think that shows serious crime goes beyond deterrence. Particularly with knife crime, money, upbringing and opportunities play a key role. I really don't think that our prison system comes in to it in the vast majority of cases. 

It's a bit hard to determine whether it does or doesn't seeing as there's a 15 year waiting list, you stick someone in the north sea for 6 months and they'll think twice about stabbing someone. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, David Guiza said:

Lack of a deterrent is a bit of myth though, isn't it? 

 

There is no evidence in America, for example, that the death penalty reduces the crime rates. If people aren't put off by being sentenced to the end of their lives, then I think that shows serious crime goes beyond deterrence. Particularly with knife crime, money, upbringing and opportunities play a key role. I really don't think that our prison system comes in to it in the vast majority of cases. 

 

Well the evidence in America shows that rehab and 3 strikes and chatting nicely to people and every other possiblity including education is a bit of a myth too if you want to look at it that way. 

[purpleronnie]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah let's all stick our head in the sand, watch Love Island and pretend none of those things are terrifying. 

 I never said you should. 

[oakman]

Regarding the police officer who was attacked with the machete - they arrested the guy on suspicion of causing GBH. I don't know threshold between GBH and attempted murder but surely a frenzied attack with a machete is an attempt to kill? What's the difference between the two?

[David Guiza]

14 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

Well the evidence in America shows that rehab and 3 strikes and chatting nicely to people and every other possiblity including education is a bit of a myth too if you want to look at it that way. 

 

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

It's a bit hard to determine whether it does or doesn't seeing as there's a 15 year waiting list, you stick someone in the north sea for 6 months and they'll think twice about stabbing someone. 

I don't think there's any one solution, but it's been proven time and time again across different nations, cultures etc that stricter punishment often doesn't result in less crime, particularly violent crime. 

 

The vast majority of recent knife crime, particularly in London, seems to be centered around drugs so tackling that and what leads young, underprivileged and impressionable young to get into that mess in the first place. Tackling the issue at the source, rather than increasing the punishment seems logical to me. It's clearly a complex issue though, with no single solution. 

 

1 minute ago, oakman said:

Regarding the police officer who was attacked with the machete - they arrested the guy on suspicion of causing GBH. I don't know threshold between GBH and attempted murder but surely a frenzied attack with a machete is an attempt to kill? What's the difference between the two?

From memory, the mens rea (mental element of the crime, necessary along with the actus reus - physical element) of murder is intention to kill and intention to cause GBH, so they're not too dissimilar. 

[oakman]

7 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

From memory, the mens rea (mental element of the crime, necessary along with the actus reus - physical element) of murder is intention to kill and intention to cause GBH, so they're not too dissimilar. 

 

On conviction, are the sentences similar? Sorry to ask what may seem stupid questions but you seem to know your stuff -  I find the legal system fascinating and unfathomable at the same time.

[David Guiza]

8 minutes ago, oakman said:

 

On conviction, are the sentences similar? Sorry to ask what may seem stupid questions but you seem to know your stuff -  I find the legal system fascinating and unfathomable at the same time.

I imagine in this instance it would be Section 18 GBH due to the intent involved - in which case it carries I think the maximum prison term is something like 15 years/life, so yes the likelihood would be a lengthy sentence similar to murder/attempted murder.

 

Section 20 is the other GBH charge - but that's without intent to cause GBH and instead comes about as a result of something else. E.g. punching somebody who then falls out of a window.

 

And there's Section 47 ABH - that's fairly none serious assault charges. 

 

I haven't studied criminal law for years, but that's a brief explanation from memory !  

 

 

 

 

[yorkie1999]

13 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

I don't think there's any one solution, but it's been proven time and time again across different nations, cultures etc that stricter punishment often doesn't result in less crime, particularly violent crime. 

 

The vast majority of recent knife crime, particularly in London, seems to be centered around drugs so tackling that and what leads young, underprivileged and impressionable young to get into that mess in the first place. Tackling the issue at the source, rather than increasing the punishment seems logical to me. It's clearly a complex issue though, with no single solution. 

 

From memory, the mens rea (mental element of the crime, necessary along with the actus reus - physical element) of murder is intention to kill and intention to cause GBH, so they're not too dissimilar. 

Where's that been proven? Surely, if that's the case, a straight line graph would say if the was no punishment, there would be no crime. The only thing that's proven is if you have less police officers, you have less crime, and that's nothing to do with punishment, that's to do with twisted stats saying there are less reported crimes because it's not worth reporting something that no-ones going to do anything about. I guarantee you that IF the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread was getting your hand chopped off , there wouldn't be many loaves of bread on the stolen property market.

[Buce]

31 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

I don't think there's any one solution, but it's been proven time and time again across different nations, cultures etc that stricter punishment often doesn't result in less crime, particularly violent crime. 

 

The vast majority of recent knife crime, particularly in London, seems to be centered around drugs so tackling that and what leads young, underprivileged and impressionable young to get into that mess in the first place. Tackling the issue at the source, rather than increasing the punishment seems logical to me. It's clearly a complex issue though, with no single solution. 

 

From memory, the mens rea (mental element of the crime, necessary along with the actus reus - physical element) of murder is intention to kill and intention to cause GBH, so they're not too dissimilar. 

 

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Where's that been proven? Surely, if that's the case, a straight line graph would say if the was no punishment, there would be no crime. The only thing that's proven is if you have less police officers, you have less crime, and that's nothing to do with punishment, that's to do with twisted stats saying there are less reported crimes because it's not worth reporting something that no-ones going to do anything about. I guarantee you that IF the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread was getting your hand chopped off , there wouldn't be many loaves of bread on the stolen property market.

 

The Norwegian approach to crime is all about re-education while treating prisoners like human beings and they have far less recidivisim than we do.

[yorkie1999]

Just now, Buce said:

 

 

The Norwegian approach to crime is all about re-education while treating prisoners like human beings and they have far less recidivisim than we do.

This has also been the UK approach for years, which is the opposite to the US approach, so it doesn't explain why we now have a serious problem with knife crime. Maybe we're reaching the point where our society is becoming too tolerant and crime increases because criminals can get away with it.

[Guest SO1]

40 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

I don't think there's any one solution, but it's been proven time and time again across different nations, cultures etc that stricter punishment often doesn't result in less crime, particularly violent crime. 

 

The vast majority of recent knife crime, particularly in London, seems to be centered around drugs so tackling that and what leads young, underprivileged and impressionable young to get into that mess in the first place. Tackling the issue at the source, rather than increasing the punishment seems logical to me. It's clearly a complex issue though, with no single solution. 

 

From memory, the mens rea (mental element of the crime, necessary along with the actus reus - physical element) of murder is intention to kill and intention to cause GBH, so they're not too dissimilar. 

Food for thought. An Ex Baltimore Cop tells it like it is. This is 30mins of a 2 1/2 interview. Sounds exactly like my hometown in Upstate NY

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

This has also been the UK approach for years, which is the opposite to the US approach, so it doesn't explain why we now have a serious problem with knife crime. Maybe we're reaching the point where our society is becoming too tolerant and crime increases because criminals can get away with it.

 

No it hasn't.

 

We bang people up in overcrowded, drug ridden, rat infested prisons and keep them under lock down for 23 hrs a day.

[Guest SO1]

Just now, Buce said:

 

No it hasn't.

 

We bang people up in overcrowded, drug ridden, rat infested prisons and keep them under lock down for 23 hrs a day.

Watch the interview. I know I'm preaching to the saved. Like a spiral into hell. There but for the grace of God go I.

The problem starts with economics.

[lifted*fox]

3 hours ago, David Guiza said:

Lack of a deterrent is a bit of myth though, isn't it? 

 

There is no evidence in America, for example, that the death penalty reduces the crime rates. If people aren't put off by being sentenced to the end of their lives, then I think that shows serious crime goes beyond deterrence. Particularly with knife crime, money, upbringing and opportunities play a key role. I really don't think that our prison system comes in to it in the vast majority of cases. 

 

it's not about deterrent, imho. 

 

it's about making sure that kids from poor estates have access to a good education, a good upbringing, things like community centres where they can go and spend their time productively. it's about making sure we have good mental health services. it's about making sure we can send out a message to these kids that they do have a future, there are jobs out there for them where they can excel and make a living, etc. 

 

you tell a young kid on a poor estate in london that he's never going to amount to anything from the minute he's born then the future looks bleak and people turn to crime and violence to make their way. these kids have already accepted that they're going to prison, that they might die by the hand of another poor kid with a knife. if that ain't a deterrent then what is? 

 

it's about prevention. give these people hope and opportunity to succeed and knife crime will reduce again. but currently - austerity, the closure of community centres, the lack of mental health support, the lack of family and community support, the lack of police on the streets - it's created the perfect environment for knife crime to thrive.

 

don't get me started on the war on drugs - FAILED war on drugs. it's time to legalise, regulate and take drug dealing out of the hands of gangs / petty criminals. most of your estate kids are probably slinging weed / coke, etc. most of the violence will come from people stepping on others turf. crime figures from other countries that have legalised show that drug-related crime / drug/gang related crime has fallen through the floor since the legalisation of weed. but hey ho, all of the big pharma companies are putting money in the pockets of your MPs to keep them voting against progressive legalisation of drugs because it'll massively impact the requirement for pharma produced opiates, etc. 

 

but then the conservative party don't actually care about that. let all the poor kids on the estates stab each other to death. a few less rascals to worry about, eh.

Edited 8 August 2019 by lifted*fox

[LiberalFox]

We are closer to the US system and going more in that direction despite ample evidence it's not the correct way to go.

[David Guiza]

29 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Where's that been proven? Surely, if that's the case, a straight line graph would say if the was no punishment, there would be no crime. The only thing that's proven is if you have less police officers, you have less crime, and that's nothing to do with punishment, that's to do with twisted stats saying there are less reported crimes because it's not worth reporting something that no-ones going to do anything about. I guarantee you that IF the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread was getting your hand chopped off , there wouldn't be many loaves of bread on the stolen property market.

I was mainly referring to extreme punishment, ie the death penalty and here are a couple of articles on the same:-

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/study-international-data-shows-declining-murder-rates-after-abolition-of-death-penalty

https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/

 

America, or at least certain states there, are evidence enough that extreme punishment isn't a solution. Particularly when it comes to knife crime; these people committing the awful acts are seemingly not doing so 'because they can' or because they have no fear of the consequences. It's because they have made a series of decisions that has lead to them having no real alternative and that's a large part of what needs to be addressed. If you can prevent, or at least lessen the chance, the likelihood of young people falling into gangs and drugs etc then you will make a far greater effort in tackling knife crime than you would be imposing draconian punishment.  

 

What numerous studies have seemed to show is that the increased risk of getting caught is a far greater deterrent than any form of punishment. Which, as you will agree I'm sure, shows that the problem lies with cuts to the police etc rather than prisons being a walk in the park etc. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49261795

 

The firefighter who instigated arson and then travelled to the fires to try to put them out.