The VAR thread

[Frank Large's Black Book]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

But in the rules at the moment, used for all, the two decisions are correct.

You could well be correct.

The points are really:

1). Tomorrow the two decisions would be the opposite and still be correct.

2). No one knows where the feck we are with it

[Ricey]

9 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It's zoomed in and pinpointed on Faes' elbow. That's the problem.

His elbow is in line with the outside of his upper arm, which is the correct place to pin point it.

[Ricey]

5 minutes ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

You could well be correct.

The points are really:

1). Tomorrow the two decisions would be the opposite and still be correct.

2). No one knows where the feck we are with it

1) Tomorrow the two decisions would be exactly the same under the current rules.

2) I agree, as this thread is proving.

[AKCJ]

3 minutes ago, Ricey said:

His elbow is in line with the outside of his upper arm, which is the correct place to pin point it.

https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/presentation-of-all-changes-and-clarifications-to-the-laws-2022-23?l=en

 

I don't see how. Page 17 details the handball rule. The line should be drawn from the armpit.

 

[Super_horns]

Cannot give assistants a lot of confidence in their own decision making if such tight offsides are being changed by fine margins.

 

 Might get to the point where they don’t bother flagging  at all ?

 

I know in cricket they have the umpires call - would that work in football ?

[jammie82uk]

16 hours ago, Babylon said:

I don’t know ask them, that’s subjective, offside isn’t. 

Offside can be subjective, just look at the Rashford-Fernandes incident a few weeks ago 

[Ricey]

9 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/presentation-of-all-changes-and-clarifications-to-the-laws-2022-23?l=en

 

I don't see how. Page 17 details the handball rule. The line should be drawn from the armpit.

 

Not through the armpit, in line horizontally with the bottom of the armpit.

 

[turtmcfly]

13 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/presentation-of-all-changes-and-clarifications-to-the-laws-2022-23?l=en

 

I don't see how. Page 17 details the handball rule. The line should be drawn from the armpit.

 

 

Nope. That just clarifies where the arm starts, and thus how much of the arm should be excluded from the decision. 

 

Offside is measured from whichever bit in green is nearest the goal line. So the outside of the upper arm/shoulder (obviously assuming head/foot etc not nearer) 

 

[NewburyFox]

My frustration is that for offsides it all feels so arbitrary. To me Barnes looks as much onside as Rashford and yet one is disallowed and the other isn’t. Then you see the lines and they seem to be drawn from different parts of the body every week. I fail to see how it can be 100% accurate at the moment and it just ends up ruling out what are perfectly good goals. Unless it’s ‘clear and obvious’ I’d rather they just stuck with the on field decision. 
 

VAR sucks the joy out of celebrating goals. 

[Babylon]

26 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/presentation-of-all-changes-and-clarifications-to-the-laws-2022-23?l=en

 

I don't see how. Page 17 details the handball rule. The line should be drawn from the armpit.

 

His armpit would make zero sense. His arm is a straight line in this example, it is as simple as they get. You take the part of the shoulder that's nearest the goal. 

 

It's only when you get an angled arm there it starts getting a questionable area and why they clarify where you take the measurement from then. 

[Babylon]

41 minutes ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

You could well be correct.

The points are really:

1). Tomorrow the two decisions would be the opposite and still be correct.

2). No one knows where the feck we are with it

But they wouldn't. Draw the lines and they are correct decisions. If they were given the other way around, they'd both be wrong... but they weren't. 

[Babylon]

36 minutes ago, Ricey said:

1) Tomorrow the two decisions would be exactly the same under the current rules.

2) I agree, as this thread is proving.

I just don't understand why they don't show the full decision making process for all decisions. It would educate people for a start and provide consistency. 

 

One week you see verticals, one week you don't. One week you see the full working out, one week you don't. It's nonsense and just breeds mistrust. 

[fox_up_north]

Oh and bin off this awful "let the passage of play continue before flagging" crap.

 

See an offside? Raise the flag. 

[jmono84]

12 hours ago, StanSP said:

Is right. 

 

Perspective or not, it literally shows the line not going through the armpit. If it does, Rashford is off. 

 

Big 6 get that extra foot by the looks of it!

 

Fuming and of course no mention of it anywhere!

[Babylon]

24 minutes ago, jmono84 said:

Big 6 get that extra foot by the looks of it!

 

Fuming and of course no mention of it anywhere!

Shoulder is classed as body and not arm, the line position is correct. 

[jmono84]

Yet the spurs image shows this wasn’t the case. 
 

I disagree with how you see this and not convinced it’s as accurate you you seem to believe.

[st albans fox]

14 minutes ago, jmono84 said:

Yet the spurs image shows this wasn’t the case. 
 

I disagree with how you see this and not convinced it’s as accurate you you seem to believe.

The image from yesterday has a line drawn down to the line across the pitch 

 

the images from the spurs game did not - i haven’t seen any images from the spurs still that showed the down lines - that is my issue 

[turtmcfly]

15 minutes ago, jmono84 said:

Yet the spurs image shows this wasn’t the case. 
 

I disagree with how you see this and not convinced it’s as accurate you you seem to believe.

 

It's as accurate as the still-required human input allows it to be. A lot more accurate than someone running the line, but not perfect. 

 

My problem is that the chimera of perfect accuracy (which is what people claim they want) is driving the current VAR process for offside, when it should be driven by ensuring that the preferred outcome (from a neutral's POV!) of both the Barnes and Rashford goals standing. Even when it's fully tech'd I'd prefer it to slightly favour the attacker e.g. has to be offside in the stopped frame and the frames either side 

[AKCJ]

2 hours ago, Ricey said:

Not through the armpit, in line horizontally with the bottom of the armpit.

 

 

2 hours ago, turtmcfly said:

 

Nope. That just clarifies where the arm starts, and thus how much of the arm should be excluded from the decision. 

 

Offside is measured from whichever bit in green is nearest the goal line. So the outside of the upper arm/shoulder (obviously assuming head/foot etc not nearer) 

 

So not his elbow then? 

[AKCJ]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

His armpit would make zero sense. His arm is a straight line in this example, it is as simple as they get. You take the part of the shoulder that's nearest the goal. 

 

It's only when you get an angled arm there it starts getting a questionable area and why they clarify where you take the measurement from then. 

"Armpit" is the word they use in the rules.

[Super_horns]

You know a ref has made a bad error when even Dermot Gallagher says the player in question was very lucky not to be sent off .

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/live-blog/11095/12815779/ref-watch-former-premier-league-referee-dermot-gallagher-on-lee-masons-departure-nick-pope-red-card-and-much-more-live

 

”

He was extremely lucky. I think it's a red card. If you put your studs into someone's knee that high, it's dangerous. 
 

"The one thing it can't be is a free kick only. The referee should punish on the field. If the referee gives a red card, it would never get overturned."”

Edited 20 February 2023 by Super_horns

[st albans fox]

13 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

"Armpit" is the word they use in the rules.

 But they changed the interpretation to be the bottom of the armpit which is where the t shirt line comes in as it’s drawn across from where the armpit meets the torso 

 

previously handballs were being given for balls hitting the shoulder which is bizarre 

[grobyfox1990]

Reading this thread and trying to understand why Barnes was given off last weekend and Rashford was not yesterday has prompted a lot of condescending and smug posts, presumably buy those who have as little an idea as I do. But I still do not understand how both were given......

[turtmcfly]

7 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

"Armpit" is the word they use in the rules.

 

You posted the *handball rules* to define where the arm starts (they use the armpit because there's no equivalent fixed point on the outer arm), not the rule to say which part of the arm should be used in an offside decision

 

Tbh your other reply (to me this time) means I'm pretty sure we're in 'bored and boring troll' territory now

 

[LestahGOAT]

VAR isnt the problem.

 

The problem is stupid laws implemented by people who have no clue.

 

No one knows where to draw these lines from. No one knows where an armpit begins. No one scores a goal with their armpit. And the technology is not sophisticated enough to see exactly when the ball has been kicked.

 

Add that to the fact referees draw the lines on the wrong players, or just dont draw the lines at all, theres your problem.

 

And then after every cock up, the laws are re-written. So any decision can be right or wrong depending on the day, the person in charge, and the laws of that day.