Brexit!

[Tommo220]

3 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Is anything currently in politics normal?

Jacob Reese Mogg is his normal cvnty self - at least thats one thing that doesn't change!

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Tommo220 said:

"black hole" is such an alarmist term and doesnt really do the situation justice..

 

The UK is nowhere near the biggest spender on healthcare in the EU.  in fact as a % of GDP, were currently barely even top 10, so i'd say that £20bn in to that "black hole" is most likely money well spent, especially given the amazing service these underpaid, overstretched miracle workers give daily (to which i experienced first hand not too long ago).

 

it also doesn't take into consideration the fact that the NHS has been experiencing under funding for years (something that the government admitted as far back as 2012). 

 

It's not at all well spent until its accompanied by meaningful reform of the entire system.

 

Underfunding is obviously a problem, the result of a system that means that three politicians set the budgets for healthcare in this country and a bunch of bureaucrats at NICE use it to ration treatment. Underpaid staff (nurses; doctors are paid well enough), the result of a system where wages are determined centrally, often on political whims. 

 

The problem is people in this country prefer for health to be a political football and like their system to be more akin to Apple as a brand they can worship rather than save lives.

[Tommo220]

16 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

It's not at all well spent until its accompanied by meaningful reform of the entire system.

 

Underfunding is obviously a problem, the result of a system that means that three politicians set the budgets for healthcare in this country and a bunch of bureaucrats at NICE use it to ration treatment. Underpaid staff (nurses; doctors are paid well enough), the result of a system where wages are determined centrally, often on political whims. 

 

The problem is people in this country prefer for health to be a political football and like their system to be more akin to Apple as a brand they can worship rather than save lives.

I don't disagree that it needs some form of reform, but calling it a 'black hole' and calling up the £20bn thats supposedly being pumped in to it as a kind of justification that its being properly funded by the government is slightly disingenuous in my opinion.

 

i mean, lets take that £20bn and look at that on its own.  the NHS has a budget of ~£122bn currently (give or take a £ or 2), committing an extra £20bn over 4 years sounds good until you consider that inflation on the current budget over the next 4 years would be worth almost £10bn - just to keep the system in its current state.

 

You are right that it shouldn't be used as a political football to pass around, but you cant hide from the fact that it performs incredibly well given the constraints put upon it by a government (read party)who have had it in their crosshairs for generations.

Edited 19 September 2019 by Tommo220

[StanSP]

This isn't directed at anyone in here but this is the delusion I'm on about. 

 

The man needs insulin to live. His ability to get it is hugely affected if we leave the EU. He voted to leave. He still wants to leave even when knowing he may not get his insulin he needs. Therefore dying through lack of it because we left the EU. 

 

 

 

[Kopfkino]

25 minutes ago, Tommo220 said:

I don't disagree that it needs some form of reform, but calling it a 'black hole' and calling up the £20bn thats supposedly being pumped in to it as a kind of justification that its being properly funded by the government is slightly disingenuous in my opinion.

 

i mean, lets take that £20bn and look at that on its own.  the NHS has a budget of ~£122bn currently (give or take a £ or 2), committing an extra £20bn over 4 years sounds good until you consider that inflation on the current budget over the next 4 years would be worth almost £10bn - just to keep the system in its current state.

 

You are right that it shouldn't be used as a political football to pass around, but you cant hide from the fact that it performs incredibly well given the constraints put upon it by a government (read party)who have had it in their crosshairs for generations.

 

Of course its a black hole, it will go in, nothing will change. I didn't use it as a justification for its being properly funded, but responded to a point that the government struggled to find much for the NHS, well it found 10x more (and the £20bn a year is after inflation) than the figure cited as a one off No-deal preparation expense. And of course that £20bn is more than anyone pledged at the last election so if its still underfunded then it doesn't matter whether its red, blue or amber it will remain underfunded. Why? Because that's the system. Part of the reason The Netherlands spends a lot on healthcare is not because its politicians aren't the Conservatives from the UK but partly because treatment decisions are made between healthcare consumer and healthcare provider rather than being rationed by bureaucrats. Thus you can get a much better range of new, innovative, and expensive treatments, and hey presto they get better outcomes. Any healthcare system can look poorly funded in % of GDP terms if its central bodies heavily ration expensive treatments.

 

I don't care if it performs well given the constraints on it, although it could perform better even given the constraints upon it. I want a healthcare system that's fit for purpose and not celebrate one that isn't. But in this country we prefer to throw birthday parties for 'our NHS' rather than maximise its capabilities. 

[BKLFox]

48 minutes ago, StanSP said:

This isn't directed at anyone in here but this is the delusion I'm on about. 

 

The man needs insulin to live. His ability to get it is hugely affected if we leave the EU. He voted to leave. He still wants to leave even when knowing he may not get his insulin he needs. Therefore dying through lack of it because we left the EU. 

 

 

 

I'd imagine he'll be ok given that The Dept of H&S care have advised that the Government have been stock piling medicines including insulin & the fact that the 3 main distributers of insulin to the UK, Nova Nordisk, Samofi & Lilly have also stated they don’t expect significant problems with supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

[Wortho]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

This isn't directed at anyone in here but this is the delusion I'm on about. 

 

The man needs insulin to live. His ability to get it is hugely affected if we leave the EU. He voted to leave. He still wants to leave even when knowing he may not get his insulin he needs. Therefore dying through lack of it because we left the EU. 

 

 

 

Project fear rears it's ugly head again . 

And some people actually believe it 

[StanSP]

5 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Project fear rears it's ugly head again . 

And some people actually believe it 

Gonna answer my questions from before by the way? The ones from over a week ago. Page 33 if you don't remember

 

[String fellow]

A lot of folk, especially in Scotland, keep banging on about the current lack of parliamentary scrutiny over Brexit, but what does that really mean in practice? It means not having to listen to the SNP's Ian Blackford constantly throwing insults at Boris Johnson. Imo, the longer we're spared all that, the better!   

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

Project fear rears it's ugly head again . 

And some people actually believe it 

Some of us don't have to "believe" it, it's already happening to people we care about...

 

On 17/09/2019 at 08:23, Voll Blau said:

Maybe you'd like to tell that to the family members of mine who've already been given advanced prescriptions for regular medication because their doctors aren't certain what's going to happen over the next few months. Or maybe you could just tell their doctors? I mean, I doubt they're in as qualified a position as you to make judgments about what is already happening to medical supplies because of the uncertainty caused by a potential no deal scenario, let alone it actually happening, so if you just tell them they've "nothing to fear" all should be sound.

 

[StanSP]

6 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Project fear rears it's ugly head again . 

And some people actually believe it 

By the way, granted the above video may be an exaggeration of the points but the diabetic guy hardly gives a response like @BKLFox gave (which is fair point). He's genuinely happy to die as long as we get to leave. The question put to him was 'IF your insulin doesn't arrive...'.

 

Madness. 

[Wortho]

5 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Gonna answer my questions from before by the way? The ones from over a week ago. Page 33 if you don't remember

 

Not really, that's old news

[leicsmac]

29 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Of course its a black hole, it will go in, nothing will change. I didn't use it as a justification for its being properly funded, but responded to a point that the government struggled to find much for the NHS, well it found 10x more (and the £20bn a year is after inflation) than the figure cited as a one off No-deal preparation expense. And of course that £20bn is more than anyone pledged at the last election so if its still underfunded then it doesn't matter whether its red, blue or amber it will remain underfunded. Why? Because that's the system. Part of the reason The Netherlands spends a lot on healthcare is not because its politicians aren't the Conservatives from the UK but partly because treatment decisions are made between healthcare consumer and healthcare provider rather than being rationed by bureaucrats. Thus you can get a much better range of new, innovative, and expensive treatments, and hey presto they get better outcomes. Any healthcare system can look poorly funded in % of GDP terms if its central bodies heavily ration expensive treatments.

 

I don't care if it performs well given the constraints on it, although it could perform better even given the constraints upon it. I want a healthcare system that's fit for purpose and not celebrate one that isn't. But in this country we prefer to throw birthday parties for 'our NHS' rather than maximise its capabilities. 

I think we had a talk about this a couple of years ago that ended with you saying that money is more important than human life, Kopf. Or words to that effect, anyway.

 

But in all seriousness, I'm going to repeat what I said on the topic then, now - I hope one day humans will have the resources and abilities in technology to move beyond the idea that absolutely everything has a material value and so won;t have to compromise our own morality in the way we have to today - because until then you're right in that we have little choice.

[Wortho]

7 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Some of us don't have to "believe" it, it's already happening to people we care about...

 

 

So you are saying that should there be a no deal Brexit people in the UK will be unable to receive life saving drugs? My son also needs vital drugs so that he function. 

Is this the fault of the EU or companies within the EU? If so who would want to be part of an empire that refuses to supply these vital drugs. I think it says more about the EU than anything. 

[StanSP]

14 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Not really, that's old news

It really isn't. 

 

You just didn't have the answers then and don't have the answers now. Cowardly to cop out like that as opposed to just being honest and saying that you don't have the answers. 

[Finnaldo]

2 minutes ago, Wortho said:

So you are saying that should there be a no deal Brexit people in the UK will be unable to receive life saving drugs? My son also needs vital drugs so that he function. 

Is this the fault of the EU or companies within the EU? If so who would want to be part of an empire that refuses to supply these vital drugs. I think it says more about the EU than anything. 

 

no.

[Wortho]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

 

no.

No?

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, Wortho said:

No?

 

Thats what I said.

[Wortho]

3 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Thats what I said.

Fine

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

So you are saying that should there be a no deal Brexit people in the UK will be unable to receive life saving drugs? My son also needs vital drugs so that he function. 

Is this the fault of the EU or companies within the EU? If so who would want to be part of an empire that refuses to supply these vital drugs. I think it says more about the EU than anything. 

I'm saying that's what doctors think might happen. Doctors who supply these drugs to people I know.

 

I'm not willing to see them suffer to prove some bullshit point about the EU being an "empire". None of us will be able to get up to the moral high ground if we're not healthy enough to do so.

[The Guvnor]

16 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I'm saying that's what doctors think might happen. Doctors who supply these drugs to people I know.

 

I'm not willing to see them suffer to prove some bullshit point about the EU being an "empire". None of us will be able to get up to the moral high ground if we're not healthy enough to do so.

Do you mind me asking what life saving medication you are referring to? 

I am taking regular medication you could argue is life preserving and my wife is taking medication post cancer treatment, we haven't been told of any supply problems, I've just had my Annual review and she has recently visited her Oncologist.

I am genuinely interested. 

Edited 19 September 2019 by The Guvnor

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

This isn't directed at anyone in here but this is the delusion I'm on about. 

 

The man needs insulin to live. His ability to get it is hugely affected if we leave the EU. He voted to leave. He still wants to leave even when knowing he may not get his insulin he needs. Therefore dying through lack of it because we left the EU. 

 

 

 

Jesus!

[RoboFox]

.

Edited 19 September 2019 by RoboFox

[Kopfkino]

30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think we had a talk about this a couple of years ago that ended with you saying that money is more important than human life, Kopf. Or words to that effect, anyway.

 

But in all seriousness, I'm going to repeat what I said on the topic then, now - I hope one day humans will have the resources and abilities in technology to move beyond the idea that absolutely everything has a material value and so won;t have to compromise our own morality in the way we have to today - because until then you're right in that we have little choice.

Even as a tongue in cheek thing I can't for the life of me remember what this referred to. Even done a search on the whole old politics thread and can't find a reference, what memories it did produce though. Had forgotten how good the Toddster could be and how funny Webbo was. Also I'd hate online me irl

[WigstonWanderer]

58 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Project fear rears it's ugly head again . 

And some people actually believe it 

I think you’re missing the point. Whether the insulin is in short supply post Brexit or not, this guy is prepared to die for the cause. If that’s not a cult, I don’t know what is.

Edited 19 September 2019 by WigstonWanderer