Brexit!

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'm no expert on the pharmaceutical industry & have no knowledge whatsoever of the industry in Aus, NZ or Singapore.

 

I do know that US pharma corporations charge high prices, so I'm sure that replacing EU imports with US imports would seriously jack up cost, even before you consider the extra transport cost etc.

 

My impression is that pharma is a global industry in which different nations/corporations specialise in different drugs. I don't know, but guess that the US makes some of its own drugs, but imports others from the EU, India, Mexico etc. Likewise, I assume that some UK/EU drugs already come from the US. Doubtless some EU drugs could be replaced by US equivalents (at a higher cost), but I assume that some could not......but I lack expertise on that. @Bryn? @Kopfkino?

 

I've not watched the Galloway thing but yeah this argument about easily substituting is bonkers. It assumes other markets have the capacity to supply us and as you say the means, it ignores that they still have to be checked anyway (medicines are serious things can't just be waved through), it ignores any other regulatory issue. 2/3 of medicines come via France so imagine the time and cost of getting them from NZ instead. Air freight capacity is limited and expensive, container ship would probably 50 days. Then also there's the supply chain impact on our producers and also the huge loss of economies of scale that comes from losing access to 27 other markets. 

 

 

 

In other news, just seen this and only one source but have seen many others that suggest much of the EU just wants us gone now. Makes a real mockery of those that think we just Revoke and go back to how it was, not much better for those that think a remain win in a second ref would be fine. All political capital for the next 10 years has been spent and we'd end up a nightmare come next treaty change. Can probably guess the four countries will be out of Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Netherlands, Poland(?). 

 

[BKLFox]

16 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

I'm not seeing either side of the 'argument. The argument in general is between a bunch of no nothings with opinions.

 

I've gone to an actual expert who's given me the expert view.

 

You can't keep ignoring experts and asserting that arguments by non-experts are just as valid. They're not.

See this is the thing regarding all things Brexit there are NO experts because this has never happened before, ergo anyones views be it an expert in a particular field or the common man, (woman, non-gender) are simply that a view, a personal prediction. Just like the predictions to what might have happened to planes and all other electrical devices that relied on a sync clock on the stroke of midnight 1999/2000 or just like a chemical expert wouldn't have known that adding water to molten aluminium would cause an explosion until it happened by accident, which is a fairly recent find given how long water & aluminium have been around.

This is not to say we ignore all views but strike a balance somewhere between those predicting an Apocalyptic state verses a Utopian one akin to hope for the best prepare for the worst because neither side truely know what will really happen.

All bad news comes as a shock & and hearing the words like having to "stockpile" due to Brexit magnifies that shock 100 fold yet in reality "stockpiling" is an everyday occurance by goverments, industries & every household up & down the land i'd imagine, for example the 3 medical suppliers i mentioned earlier "stockpile" their 'meds' here in the UK already with supplies to last up to 10weeks all they are doing for Brexit is adding a further 4-6weeks of stock, it will be the same for energy suppliers such as Shell with petrol/diesel etc even i have stockpiled my Pick Up bars (other chocolate biscuits are available) just in case there's a delay in shipping over from the hannover factory.

The stock market the most volatile market in the world takes its lead & reacts to the daily ups & downs of Brexit reports with 1 day millions being wiped out due to negative press & recover after a few days & vice versa its a knee jerk reaction to a perception & not a direct result of Brexit because Brexit hasn't happened yet.

The only true fact in a no deal scenario is we go into WTO rules which allows us to still buy products, materials etc just as before & just as pre-November 1993 trucks, planes & ships will still roll into the UK we don't implode or get removed from the globe or turn into North Korea we are allowed to deal with any of the 164 member states all be it at different rates until new bilateral agreements are made & for those replying but these could take years please re-read the 1st part of this comment as 'could' is a verb used to indicate a possibility & therefore 'could' take years or 'could' take days no one knowns until negociations start but it won't be 1 way i'm sure countries won't price us out as France will still want us to buy its wine & Spain will want us to buy its apples etc & finally regarding tourism the UK is known as 'Money Island' when it comes to holidays abroad so again i can't see the EU members cutting its nose off to spite its face by playing silly beggers.

 

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

See this is the thing regarding all things Brexit there are NO experts because this has never happened before, ergo anyones views be it an expert in a particular field or the common man, (woman, non-gender) are simply that a view, a personal prediction

But Brexit is going to affect so many different areas of our infrastructure. Surely you can see that people who are experts *in those areas* might just be better placed to make predictions about how the act could affect *their own particular fields of expertise* than you or I?

 

As for your 'Money Island' comment, I've found I've actually had fewer Euros to spend each time I've been abroad since 2016. I wonder why...

Edited 20 September 2019 by Voll Blau

[BKLFox]

9 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

But Brexit is going to affect so many different areas of our infrastructure. Surely you can see that people who are experts *in those areas* might just be better placed to make predictions about how the act could affect *their own particular fields of expertise* than you or I?

 

As for your 'Money Island' comment, I've found I've actually had fewer Euros to spend each time I've been abroad since 2016. I wonder why...

totally understood & i'm not poo pooing any of the experts opinions i'm merely stating an opinion or forecast is not a fact..do you agree?

 

The reference to 'Money Island' is a term to indicate the liking of money spent & over indulgence by people of these shores on the tourist destinations we frequent, to say a publican in a Spainish resort would rather 100 people from the UK in their bar than say from Italy purely on a financial footing you get me?

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

totally understood & i'm not poo pooing any of the experts opinions i'm merely stating an opinion or forecast is not a fact..do you agree?

 

The reference to 'Money Island' is a term to indicate the liking of money spent & over indulgence by people of these shores on the tourist destinations we frequent, to say a publican in a Spainish resort would rather 100 people from the UK in their bar than say from Italy purely on a financial footing you get me?

Well, of course an opinion is not a fact but certain opinions are more qualified than others on this subject when they relates to the holders' particular fields of expertise.

 

I also get your second point, but what I'm saying is the declining pound against the Euro means people have less of a chance to overindulge in that kind of manner now than they did pre-Brexit because their money's not worth as much (I'm just glad we had our European tour before it plummeted to its current levels ). Plus we're not the only nation that carries on like that, have you ever seen how Germans carry on in Mallorca? Puts our Magaluf fishbowl kiddies to shame.

[The Horse's Mouth]

17 hours ago, The Fox Covert said:

I don't quite know what Johnson thinks he can achieve in a month what Theresa May failed to achieve in two years.

Johnson's statements today about negotiations "making progress" appear to me to be an attempt to soften up the British public for the catastrophic cliff edge at the end of next month.

I have never seen anybody, even another politician, be able to tell so many barefaced lies and remain completely unfazed when he is found out.

This is my take on Boris.

 

 

Even if he does get the deal, the idea he can get one through parliament whether it's good or bad isn't going to happen, he can't even call a general election & brexit is the big political football which can get opposition into power. He's backed into a corner, his only hope is to get a deal made up which would be favoured more than May's deal from the public and then finally gets his GE. I think there's no chance we leave on the 31st but who knows, if he was able to strike a deal, get it through the commons in this short period of time it really will just emphasize what an absolute shambolic prime minster may was  

 

edit: Plus, if a deal was re-negged and not put through parliament could it strengthen the idea of the EU not agreeing to an extension potentially? Unlikely, but who knows they're about as sick as this as we are

Edited 20 September 2019 by The Horse's Mouth

[BKLFox]

13 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Well, of course an opinion is not a fact but certain opinions are more qualified than others on this subject when they relates to the holders' particular fields of expertise.

 

I also get your second point, but what I'm saying is the declining pound against the Euro means people have less of a chance to overindulge in that kind of manner now than they did pre-Brexit because their money's not worth as much (I'm just glad we had our European tour before it plummeted to its current levels ). Plus we're not the only nation that carries on like that, have you ever seen how Germans carry on in Mallorca? Puts our Magaluf fishbowl kiddies to shame.

i've not disagreed or said otherwise in fact i do say "This is not to say we ignore all views but strike a balance... " yes an expert, in say logistics, opinion holds more weight provided that expert is sat around the table during Brexit negotiations & not a Professor of Logistics teaching at Loggies University Leeds giving a news crew his opinion of what he believes will happen with Ships lined up 2 a breast & 16 deep waiting to get in to the Humber Estuary.

& yes sure know what the Germans are like as i was brought up not far from your location about 80km or so to your west in a place called Lippstadt good times love Germany

[Wolfox]

Perfect summary on the Mash Report

 

 

[FerrisBueller]

We better not be leaving on the 31st, I was absolutely banking on the transition period. 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

Perfect summary on the Mash Report

 

 

That's the 1st time that show's actually made me laugh, good one.  

[String fellow]

Brexiteer, remoaner, backstop, prorogation, justiciability, Article 50, hard border, and project fear. How many of us here would have understood the meaning of these words and phrases prior to 2016? Three of them are underlined in red by my pc, so even the text editor isn't up to speed with the jargon!

[Alf Bentley]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100

 

"Deputy Labour leader Tom Watson has survived a move to oust him by abolishing his post. A fresh move will be made on Saturday at the party's conference and is expected to be successful.

Friday's attempt was made at the party's National Executive Committee (NEC) meeting but it failed to get the two-thirds majority needed. It is understood that it was proposed by Jon Lansman, founder of Labour grassroots group Momentum.

The campaign group was set up to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party. Mr Watson has been at odds with Mr Corbyn over Labour's stance on Brexit."

 

Great! Just the right time to start a party civil war! 

[Sampson]

4 hours ago, Facecloth said:

He's just said this is the first time it's made him laugh, which means he hasn't laughed at, so a bit odd you're telling him to grow up.

 

I don't find the show particularly funny, but when ever someone describes comedy as labour/liberal embarrassment, it's just code for "They're making fun of how much of a shower of shit the tories are, by attempting be funny by telling the truth and I don't like it."

Eh. I think that's pretty unfair. I'm no fan of the current Tories and they absolutely should be satirised and there's plenty of people who do ad hominem attack shows to write them off when they don't really have an agenda.

 

But to be fair to webbo, he is 100% right when it comes to The Mash Report - it absolutely is a Labour/Liberal embarrassment and you don't have to be a Tory who finds it deeply cutting to think that. In fact, I'd worry much more about the self-awareness of Liberal/Labour voters who *don't* think that than Tory voters who do and find it deeply cutting.

 

Of course there's always going to be some kind of bias in everything, but The Mash Report is like a 14 year-old who's just discovered politics and has been told about these cartoon cut-out ideas of "the other side" without ever even having tried to engage and understand what other people are saying outside of some cartoonish version of their arguments they've heard only through people on their own side and just looking down their noses at them.

 

FWIW, I'd say exactly the same on the other side, there's plenty of Tory embarrassments in the media out there.

 

But The Mash Report to me is indicative of one of the huge problems in the UK right now and seems to be made by those kind of people in British politics at the moment who are the one's saying "we need to heal this divide" without having the self-awareness to see they're causing it just as much as the staunch no-deal Brexiteers are. Because they are constantly belittling genuine and legitimate concerns ordinary people have and mocking them and looking down their nose at them for having those concerns rather than actually trying to engage with them and showing them while their concerns are genuine, there solution to them is divisive or dangerous.

 

Awful, awful show with a genuinely nasty underbelly lurking in it. And I'd argue anyone who doesnt see the Mash Report is a Labour/Liberal embarrassment has absolutely no self-awareness to what Liberal, Labour and  Conservative values all are and should be, regardless of your political persuasions. And I'm not a Brexiteer or Tory at all.

Edited 21 September 2019 by Sampson

[ealingfox]

6 hours ago, Sampson said:

Eh. I think that's pretty unfair. I'm no fan of the current Tories and they absolutely should be satirised and there's plenty of people who do ad hominem attack shows to write them off when they don't really have an agenda.

 

But to be fair to webbo, he is 100% right when it comes to The Mash Report - it absolutely is a Labour/Liberal embarrassment and you don't have to be a Tory who finds it deeply cutting to think that. In fact, I'd worry much more about the self-awareness of Liberal/Labour voters who *don't* think that than Tory voters who do and find it deeply cutting.

 

Of course there's always going to be some kind of bias in everything, but The Mash Report is like a 14 year-old who's just discovered politics and has been told about these cartoon cut-out ideas of "the other side" without ever even having tried to engage and understand what other people are saying outside of some cartoonish version of their arguments they've heard only through people on their own side and just looking down their noses at them.

 

FWIW, I'd say exactly the same on the other side, there's plenty of Tory embarrassments in the media out there.

 

But The Mash Report to me is indicative of one of the huge problems in the UK right now and seems to be made by those kind of people in British politics at the moment who are the one's saying "we need to heal this divide" without having the self-awareness to see they're causing it just as much as the staunch no-deal Brexiteers are. Because they are constantly belittling genuine and legitimate concerns ordinary people have and mocking them and looking down their nose at them for having those concerns rather than actually trying to engage with them and showing them while their concerns are genuine, there solution to them is divisive or dangerous.

 

Awful, awful show with a genuinely nasty underbelly lurking in it. And I'd argue anyone who doesnt see the Mash Report is a Labour/Liberal embarrassment has absolutely no self-awareness to what Liberal, Labour and  Conservative values all are and should be, regardless of your political persuasions. And I'm not a Brexiteer or Tory at all.

 

You appear to be quite obsessed with this phrase. Are you 15?

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

You appear to be quite obsessed with this phrase. Are you 15?

I don't have time to reply properly to his post yet, but he also he does seem to have a deep understanding of a tv he claims to not like. I'm mean the **** is guy doing devoting so much of his time watching a show he hates, and if he isn't, how does he know so much about it? Weird.

[leicsmac]

24 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I don't have time to reply properly to his post yet, but he also he does seem to have a deep understanding of a tv he claims to not like. I'm mean the **** is guy doing devoting so much of his time watching a show he hates, and if he isn't, how does he know so much about it? Weird.

Sampson is alright, knows a lot about stuff and is erudite.

 

He just rather would be dead than Red which shows rather a lack of true appreciation of what death truly entails IMO.

[Alf Bentley]

Sounds as if the plan to abolish Tom Watson and launch open civil war in the Labour Party will be cancelled, or at least postponed.

Corbyn's going to propose a review instead, reportedly. Sounds as if even some in Momentum realise that it would be madness to make such a move at the height of a national crisis, just as conference begins.....

Who'd have guessed that?! 

 

I'm going to focus on football instead - less depressing (famous last words!)

[The Horse's Mouth]

11 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100

 

"Deputy Labour leader Tom Watson has survived a move to oust him by abolishing his post. A fresh move will be made on Saturday at the party's conference and is expected to be successful.

Friday's attempt was made at the party's National Executive Committee (NEC) meeting but it failed to get the two-thirds majority needed. It is understood that it was proposed by Jon Lansman, founder of Labour grassroots group Momentum.

The campaign group was set up to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party. Mr Watson has been at odds with Mr Corbyn over Labour's stance on Brexit."

 

Great! Just the right time to start a party civil war! 

Watson needs to go anyway, all he does is play opposition to whatever the direction the labour party are going in 

[Dr The Singh]

7 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Watson needs to go anyway, all he does is play opposition to whatever the direction the labour party are going in 

As a politician he has been excellent for the Sikh people...he has backed calls for inpedendant review on the British involvement in the genocide of Sikhs by the Indian gov, he has been a guy who has been in minority where big governments and popularism is more apparent, even though his party is funded by such orgs.  I'm no Labour follower, buy this is a good guy who is willing to help the minority

[Charl91]

I don't think Tom Watson has done himself any favours.

 

He always seems quite reasonable when interviewed, and I'd prefer him as leader over JC. However I don't think the constant contradicting of the leadership (even if I tend to agree with him) is a particularly good look, in my view at least. 

[StanSP]

 

 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

 

 

Weird how the left wing all of a sudden trust big companies, bankers, fat cats and ceo’s. After telling us for the last few decades they are only interested in profit and bonuses.

[Kopfkino]

Not saying Thomas Cook's demise has nothing to do with Brexit but if I was running a zombie, insolvent business I'd use that excuse as well. If I was running Jet2, I wouldn't need to. 

[Alf Bentley]

48 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Weird how the left wing all of a sudden trust big companies, bankers, fat cats and ceo’s. After telling us for the last few decades they are only interested in profit and bonuses.

 

Equally weird how the right wing all of a sudden mistrust big business. After decades telling us our prosperity depends on business investment, growth and profitability, in turn requiring burgeoning inequality and corporate tax avoidance. 

 

I wouldn't trust big business to redistribute wealth or create a fairer society......but that's the job of democratic politics (if we choose to persist with it). The job of big business is to create wealth, isn't it? 

I would trust big companies not to announce an adverse outlook for business, investment and profitability under No Deal if the outlook was actually great.

CEOs don't generally talk down their own business prospects unnecessarily.....it would be bad for their profits, share prices and bonuses, wouldn't it? 

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

 

Wetherspoons ain't, and they're the only one that counts!