FT General Election Poll 2019

[RobHawk]

I'm totally fed up of it all tbh. 

 

There's nothing to excite me in this election. The torys under Boris are nothing short of a disgrace, lib Dems are undemocratic and corbyns still a waste of space. 

 

I didn't even bother watching last night and I'm so glad I didn't. I know who I'll vote for locally but nationally our politics is seriously ****ed and it keeps getting worse. 

[LiberalFox]

44 minutes ago, MattP said:

He seems a total nutter to be honest.

 

Stood for UKIP, backed Trump and tweeted Nicole Sherzinger about kissing "cute black girls"

 

Politics really does attract some total weirdos. 

Yeah it does, for things like council elections it's difficult to vet every single candidate, most work is done by volunteers a lot of which are not social media literate. For a prospective parliamentary candidate even in a non-target seat, the vetting really should be stricter. At the least it's denying people a genuine Liberal to vote for and presumably blocking someone else from standing. I find it even more unbelievable for Labour and the Conservatives who have vastly more resources. 

[Dirkster the Fox]

39 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

I'm totally fed up of it all tbh. 

 

There's nothing to excite me in this election. The torys under Boris are nothing short of a disgrace, lib Dems are undemocratic and corbyns still a waste of space. 

 

I didn't even bother watching last night and I'm so glad I didn't. I know who I'll vote for locally but nationally our politics is seriously ****ed and it keeps getting worse. 

Either 

a) 5 years of the liberals/fairly sensible economic free-market policy with one main undemocratic policy though

b) 5 years of free-market conservatism

c) 5 years of Marxism.

 

Pretty clear decision. Which one would have the country in the best place come December 2024?

 

 

Edited 20 November 2019 by Dirkster the Fox

[Strokes]

46 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Either 

a) 5 years of the liberals/fairly sensible economic free-market policy with one main undemocratic policy though

b) 5 years of free-market conservatism

c) 5 years of Marxism.

 

Pretty clear decision. Which one would have the country in the best place come December 2024?

 

 

The last 2 parliaments have only lasted just over 2 years, what gives you confidence that the next one will make it to 2024?

[Nalis]

Is Corybn's 2nd referendum promise another 'Remain' or 'Leave'? 

 

If so, surely he must renegotiate and they come back with 'Remain' or 'Corybn's deal'?

 

We all know the grand  variables of what Leave can mean.

[Dr The Singh]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

He seems a total nutter to be honest.

 

Stood for UKIP, backed Trump and tweeted Nicole Sherzinger about kissing "cute black girls"

 

Politics really does attract some total weirdos. 

Sounds like a Labour candidate to me.....I believe he also fixes microwaves part time for a living

[Jon the Hat]

58 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Is Corybn's 2nd referendum promise another 'Remain' or 'Leave'? 

 

If so, surely he must renegotiate and they come back with 'Remain' or 'Corybn's deal'?

 

We all know the grand  variables of what Leave can mean.

They will negotiate the "best deal possible" then campaign against it in a referendum.  Completely detatched from reality.

[Silebyfox_89]

As the manifestos are being announced it would be great if someone could pin these at the top of the thread. 

 

Also there is a 'Question time' style Q n A with Loughborough election candidates in Sileby on Monday 25th November if anyone is interested? All of the main parties are in attendance apart for Queenie Tea (Independent). 

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Either 

a) 5 years of the liberals/fairly sensible economic free-market policy with one main undemocratic policy though

b) 5 years of free-market conservatism

c) 5 years of Marxism.

 

Pretty clear decision. Which one would have the country in the best place come December 2024?

 

 

b) Obviously.  Wait for the manifesto, pretty good I think.

We have no idea who we would get if we elected the Lib Dems, apart from a Government with literally no clue how to Govern, and the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in British history.

 

 

[Guest Eamonn]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

b) Obviously.  Wait for the manifesto, pretty good I think.

We have no idea who we would get if we elected the Lib Dems, apart from a Government with literally no clue how to Govern, and the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in British history.

 

 

If the Lib Dems won (unlikely ,  i accept ) then they would have a mandate to overturn the 2016 referendum.

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

They will negotiate the "best deal possible" then campaign against it in a referendum.  Completely detatched from reality.

 

The Labour Party as a whole would NOT campaign against the deal they negotiated.

 

Some prominent Labour politicians (almost certainly NOT Corbyn) would campaign for Remain, as would many members.

Some Labour politicians and some members would campaign for their Brexit deal.

 

A bit like, during the 2016 referendum, some Tory ministers campaigned for Remain and some for Leave.

And a bit like some Tory MPs (many ERG & some moderates) opposed May's Brexit Deal, and others were then thrown out of the Tory party for opposing Boris' plan to keep No Deal on the table.

 

You should get a job with a notorious "Fact Check" site, Jon. 

[RobHawk]

1 hour ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Either 

a) 5 years of the liberals/fairly sensible economic free-market policy with one main undemocratic policy though

b) 5 years of free-market conservatism

c) 5 years of Marxism.

 

Pretty clear decision. Which one would have the country in the best place come December 2024?

 

 

I know the politics.

 

But that's not my point. British politics is in absolute rut and I don't think there's ever been such an uninspiring, incompetent and dishonest bunch of leaders, that's how it feels right now anyway. 

 

Worst of all, alot of voters seem to be lapping it up. 

 

Corbyn or Boris could literally propose a policy to torture puppy's and people would find a way to defend it. 

 

Nothings surprising me any more as our politics sinks lower into the gutter.

[RobHawk]

14 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

b) Obviously.  Wait for the manifesto, pretty good I think.

We have no idea who we would get if we elected the Lib Dems, apart from a Government with literally no clue how to Govern, and the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in British history.

 

 

Anything but B.

 

The Tory's have done enough damage to the country without bozo getting his hands on it.

[Dirkster the Fox]

56 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The last 2 parliaments have only lasted just over 2 years, what gives you confidence that the next one will make it to 2024?

 

 

5 minutes ago, Eamonn said:

If the Lib Dems won (unlikely ,  i accept ) then they would have a mandate to overturn the 2016 referendum.

Eamonn, with your point, I agree to an extent. By standing against something they spent 3 years in parliament blocking from happening, should they get in power it would mean enough want it to happen and its validated by democracy.

 

Problem is not with those who vote for them.  Its those millions who voted leave who would feel robbed of THEIR own democratically won vote 3 1/2 years earlier in 2016.  The ill-feeling would run deep for years.  So it also goes against democracy and for our nation this would be unprecedented and not healthy at all.

 

That's the main issue with their policy.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Nalis said:

Is Corybn's 2nd referendum promise another 'Remain' or 'Leave'? 

 

If so, surely he must renegotiate and they come back with 'Remain' or 'Corybn's deal'?

 

We all know the grand  variables of what Leave can mean.

 

Yes, the policy is to renegotiate in 3 months and to put the renegotiated deal to a Remain/Leave referendum in 6 months.

 

That timescale will trigger eye-rolling from opponents, and it might be over-optimistic.

But it might not be, as many of the things already negotiated would probably stay (divorce settlement, EU/UK citizens' rights), Labour would want to stay in the Customs Union, which the EU is likely to welcome as an alternative solution to the Irish border issue & Labour would want to stay more closely aligned to EU standards on employment rights & environmental standards than the Tories would.....so they'd find that bit easier to negotiate than Boris would.

 

The bit that seems likely to be more difficult to negotiate is Corbyn's idea of leaving the Single Market, but maintaining a close, relatively frictionless trading relationship with it....while having the right for a UK Govt to intervene more in UK industry (the main reason why Corbyn personally is probably a Soft Brexiteer). They'll probably also need to lower expectations re. separate UK global trade deals if they stayed in the CU - they might be able to get some input, but the EU would decide ultimately.

[Dirkster the Fox]

2 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Anything but B.

 

The Tory's have done enough damage to the country without bozo getting his hands on it.

That's fine, but just to be clear the Lib Dems won' win, but you might get them in a coalition. 

 

So you don't want the Conservatives and moving away from their leader, are free-market business friendly Government.

 

This must mean, again moving away from their leader, you would want Labour, who are now openly proposing a Marxist policy platform. Yes?

[Foxin_Mad]

7 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Anything but B.

 

The Tory's have done enough damage to the country without bozo getting his hands on it.

Anyone but the Labour party.

 

Betrayed Northern and Midlands leave voters.

 

At the end of the day I want the party that is least likely to cause massive levels of business insolvency and record levels of unemployment. 

[Guest MattP]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

The Labour Party as a whole would NOT campaign against the deal they negotiated.

 

Some prominent Labour politicians (almost certainly NOT Corbyn) would campaign for Remain, as would many members.

Some Labour politicians and some members would campaign for their Brexit deal.

 

A bit like, during the 2016 referendum, some Tory ministers campaigned for Remain and some for Leave.

And a bit like some Tory MPs (many ERG & some moderates) opposed May's Brexit Deal, and others were then thrown out of the Tory party for opposing Boris' plan to keep No Deal on the table.

 

You should get a job with a notorious "Fact Check" site, Jon. 

I admire your optimism - but I seriously can't think of one Labour MP who would want to defend it, potentially career ending and humiliating. 

 

At a push maybe Flint or Onn but they might not even be in parliament at the next election. 

 

Who is seriously going to touch campaigning for something that barely anyone is going to vote for?

 

The whole thing would be hilarious - Tories against it, Lib Dems against it, SNP against it, Brexit Party against it - then Labour pretending to be neutral whilst trying to force a couple of politicians take one for the team whilst the leadership runs away

 

It's almost worth a Labour majority to see it happen.

[Guest Eamonn]

12 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

 

 

Eamonn, with your point, I agree to an extent. By standing against something they spent 3 years in parliament blocking from happening, should they get in power it would mean enough want it to happen and its validated by democracy.

 

Problem is not with those who vote for them.  Its those millions who voted leave who would feel robbed of THEIR own democratically won vote 3 1/2 years earlier in 2016.  The ill-feeling would run deep for years.  So it also goes against democracy and for our nation this would be unprecedented and not healthy at all.

 

That's the main issue with their policy.

I agree that the iill-feeling would be a massive issue. Farage would whip it up too. The root causes of the ill-feeling need addressing.. in my opinion that's the case regardless of Brexit.

 

However, the referendum result is not sacrosanct.

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

That's fine, but just to be clear the Lib Dems won' win, but you might get them in a coalition. 

 

So you don't want the Conservatives and moving away from their leader, are free-market business friendly Government.

 

This must mean, again moving away from their leader, you would want Labour, who are now openly proposing a Marxist policy platform. Yes?

 

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "a Marxist policy platform"? Which policies? 

 

The Tories are clearly more "free-market", as you say (not something that all businesspeople approve of - some approve of more govt intervention, though not as much as Corbyn wants).

 

But how "business friendly" are they?

The CBI, the main business organisation, had its conference the other day and was slagging the Tories as much as Labour. They didn't like the extent of Labour's interventionism, but were also alarmed at ongoing Brexit uncertainty under the Tories - noting that Brexit would not be "done" simply by formally leaving the EU in January, but would lead to an extended period of uncertainty during negotiations of the future relationship - and a strong risk of a bad deal or No Deal, with major damage to business, if a Tory Govt ruled out extending the transition period & committed to leaving completely in Dec. 2020, with or without a deal.

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

I admire your optimism - but I seriously can't think of one Labour MP who would want to defend it, potentially career ending and humiliating. 

 

At a push maybe Flint or Onn but they might not even be in parliament at the next election. 

 

Who is seriously going to touch campaigning for something that barely anyone is going to vote for?

 

The whole thing would be hilarious - Tories against it, Lib Dems against it, SNP against it, Brexit Party against it - then Labour pretending to be neutral whilst trying to force a couple of politicians take one for the team whilst the leadership runs away

 

It's almost worth a Labour majority to see it happen.

 

Glad to hear you're almost on board, Matt. You know what to do on 12th December! 

 

I'm sure that a majority of Labour MPs & leaders would back Remain - but I'd be surprised if a minority didn't back a Labour Brexit Deal that included greater national control, greater protection of rights than the Boris Deal, a closer trading relationship than the Boris Deal etc. A combination of confirmed Hard Left believers and pragmatists from strongly Leave constituencies would back it, I think. I'm guessing that Corbyn himself would stay neutral.

 

It's an outcome that I'd be happy with.....but am not optimistic about getting! 

[Dirkster the Fox]

2 hours ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Either 

a) 5 years of the liberals/fairly sensible economic free-market policy with one main undemocratic policy though

b) 5 years of free-market conservatism

c) 5 years of Marxism.

 

Pretty clear decision. Which one would have the country in the best place come December 2024?

 

 

Personally, I think they all have terrible leaders for different reasons. 

 

However, away from the 3 of them, the policy and reality of what they would do in Government is where I have to think here.  Who is likely to run the country the best in the next 5 years, or do the least damage? Foreign Policy, Domestic Interference (privatisation/nationalising), Economy, Immigration etc etc etc etc   

 

Lib Dems economically wouldn't be a disaster, but very unlikely to get into power and their core manifesto point is undemocratic and this would be too big a wound to heal.  I have kids and would fear for how our country / politics would end up with Brexit simply revoked. The largest ever vote ignored.  Not a healthy situation whichever way you voted in 2016 (I voted remain).

 

Labour genuinely scare the hell out of me.  This isn't centre left Labour form 97, 01, 05.  Blair (forget how we feel now), was palatable and electable at the time, hence 3 terms. This latest group are hard core left wing, openly Marxist now.  

 

For the above 2 reasons alone, sort of a best from a bad bunch, I can only vote Conservative as I feel they're the most likely to do the least damage in power.

Edited 20 November 2019 by Dirkster the Fox

[Dirkster the Fox]

19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "a Marxist policy platform"? Which policies? 

 

 

Marxism uses a methodology, now known as historical materialism, to analyze and critique the development of class society and especially of capitalism as well as the role of class struggles in systemic economic, social, and political change. According to Marxist theory, in capitalist societies, class conflict arises due to contradictions between the material interests of the oppressed and exploited proletariat—a class of wage labourers employed to produce goods and services—and the bourgeoisie—the ruling class that owns the means of production and extracts its wealth through appropriation of the surplus product produced by the proletariat in the form of profit

 

Taking 10% of all annual dividend payments made (Company over 250 employees) and put into a "Peoples fund".  Each person gets £500 below a certain income bracket and whats left goes to the treasury.  This would include most Private Pension funds which annually depend hugely on divined payments/growth.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/8a70b692-0967-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67

 

I could carry on...............

 

At least Blair was centrist/moderate socialism, Corbyn et al are definitely Marxist.

[Paninistickers]

24 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Personally, I think they all have terrible leaders for different reasons. 

 

However, away from the 3 of them, the policy and reality of what they would do in Government is where I have to think here.  Who is likely to run the country the best in the next 5 years, or do the least damage? Foreign Policy, Domestic Interference (privatisation/nationalising), Economy, Immigration etc etc etc etc   

 

Lib Dems economically wouldn't be a disaster, but very unlikely to get into power and their core manifesto point is undemocratic and this would be too big a wound to heal.  I have kids and would fear for how our country / politics would end up with Brexit simply revoked. The largest ever vote ignored.  Not a healthy situation whichever way you voted in 2016 (I voted remain).

 

Labour genuinely scare the hell out of me.  This isn't centre left Labour form 97, 01, 05.  Blair (forget how we feel now), was palatable and electable at the time, hence 3 terms. This latest group are hard core left wing, openly Marxist now.  

 

For the above 2 reasons alone, sort of a best from a bad bunch, I can only vote Conservative as I feel they're the most likely to do the least damage in power.

Do the least damage?! 

 

The hard right's vision of a hard Brexit will either car crash the economy and/or lead to years and years of flux whilst negotiation with the EU, US and others crawls along

[Paninistickers]

Double.post balls up

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 November 2019 by Paninistickers