Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall

[Ric Flair]

2 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Everyone thinks player development is linear and the all players are the same.

 

Interesting people moan about the clubs development big players, when we currently have Chilwell, Barnes, Hamza all in and around the first team.

But that's it, the club seem to treat player development the same at U18 and U23 level. They are so slow to progress 17-19 year olds. It's likely because they aren't good enough which is why myself and others have been calling for huge restructure and investment in our academy. It is quite out of sync with the ambitions of the rest of our club.

[coolhandfox]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

But that's it, the club seem to treat player development the same at U18 and U23 level. They are so slow to progress 17-19 year olds. It's likely because they aren't good enough which is why myself and others have been calling for huge restructure and investment in our academy. It is quite out of sync with the ambitions of the rest of our club.

Explain how it is out of sync with the club ambition? 

[Stadt]

Get your Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall name by:

 

1. Adding a 'n' to the middle of the 1998 most popular boys name the day of your birthday corresponds to

2. Picking the West Yorkshire town you were born closest to

3. Choosing the second word of the most recent National Trust property you've been to

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Trust_properties_in_England

 

 

[Stadt]

9 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Explain how it is out of sync with the club ambition? 

Most of the club has changed dramatically since the early 2000s, Peake and Beaglehole's 2000s style football coaching hasn't.

[Ric Flair]

3 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Explain how it is out of sync with the club ambition? 

Where do you want me to start?

 

1) majority of the same key coaches and decision makers since we were in league one/championship and skint. Several new and dynamic coaches have came and went very quickly.

 

2) about to move in to possibly the best training facilities in the country and/or Europe and we will still have our youngsters coached by dinosaurs. Young players are the most receptive to improvements, why not go and get the very best youth coaches to match the qualities of our first team management who is one of the best?

 

3) promoted only 1 U18 player from last season to the U23's in Luke Thomas. Conor Tee was exceptional for the U18's and then when he was too old for that age group has proceeded to play about 6 times in 18 months for the U23's. 

 

4) we seem to favour picking up cast offs from Villa, Arsenal, Norwich etc to fill the U23 squad and further stunt the pathway for the best U18's to move up earlier and then U16's in to U18's etc

 

5) the style of football Beaglehole has deployed has been the complete opposite to the first team regimes, Rodgers has said as much and wants that to change.

 

6) U23 players and their agents have criticized the club for refusing loan moves in favour of trying to win some bull shit U23 title. Often our players aren't going on loan until they are 20/21. We also have previous for keeping players until 23/24 when it's blatantly obvious they aren't going to get a first team game for us.

 

I could go on and on but I've got to be up at 5.30am for an early train to London.

 

 

[Stadt]

14 hours ago, Stadt said:

Get your Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall name by:

 

1. Adding a 'n' to the middle of the 1998 most popular boys name the day of your birthday corresponds to

2. Picking the West Yorkshire town you were born closest to

3. Choosing the second word of the most recent National Trust property you've been to

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Trust_properties_in_England

 

 

I'm Mohanmmed Hemsworth-Park

[Bluearmyfox28]

7 hours ago, Mark said:

He’s clocked up 70 games in the u23s over last four seasons and there’s a few others not far behind, where’s the benefit in that? It’s all about league position, they are 2nd but I’d rather be lower like Liverpool and aiming to do it with younger genuine prospects.

100% this, I read a while ago that we focus on a high position in the league to attract better players. That’s all good & well but then they are only getting wasted in the u23’s.

 

Hopefully this is something Brendan has Identified. 

[Bluearmyfox28]

3 hours ago, Stadt said:

Get your Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall name by:

 

1. Adding a 'n' to the middle of the 1998 most popular boys name the day of your birthday corresponds to

2. Picking the West Yorkshire town you were born closest to

3. Choosing the second word of the most recent National Trust property you've been to

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Trust_properties_in_England

 

 

Am I the only one who’s completed confused to what the relevance of this is?  

[Guest]

overrated

[Finnegan]

12 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Agreed. I was quite intrigued by the whole thing until I saw he was 21. He should've been out on loan two years ago at least.

 

Choudhury was out at 18, Chilwell 19, Barnes 19. I feel like we've probably pissed a couple of years away here.

 

Tbf it could just be that he isn't good enough, wasn't ready for Football League football and the club don't think he'll break in to our first team. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Stadt said:

I'm Mohanmmed Huddersfield-Park

Nice to meet you mate, I'm Linam Hemsworth-Edge

[Ric Flair]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Tbf it could just be that he isn't good enough, wasn't ready for Football League football and the club don't think he'll break in to our first team. 

If so, further adds to the frustration of the U18 players such as Tavares who still at 18 hasn't been promoted to the U23's. Now, perhaps he's also not good enough but he ran the show in the FA Youth Cup last season and every time I watch him in the U18's he is vastly above that level. These are crucial years for players, i don't get the fascination with trying to win some fairly meaningless title in the PL2 at the expense of developing younger players.

[Shane]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

overrated

In my opinion, Leshabela and Tavares are both more talented, but maybe Brendan has seen something in training & prefers Dewsbury-Hall.

[TJB-fox]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Tbf it could just be that he isn't good enough, wasn't ready for Football League football and the club don't think he'll break in to our first team. 

Yep. Club might have held onto him going out on loan in the knowledge that he wouldn’t get a game out in the football league at the age of 19, but might do well now and could get a transfer fee if we decide to sell.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Tbf it could just be that he isn't good enough, wasn't ready for Football League football and the club don't think he'll break in to our first team. 

If the club don't believe a player is ever likely to break into our 1st team surely they should be moved on for our benefit and theirs. I think we're actually doing them a disservice and blunting their development by hanging on to them.

 

But then I'm not in favour of the U23 system at best it should be U21 or if they want a PL2 just do it as a reserves set up so you can mix young with experience whilst giving squad payers game time. We then wouldn't get managers moaning that their squad players can't last 90mins when they only play once a month.

[nwl fox]

Well if there's anything the loans of Ndukwu, Hughes & Johnson has taught us, it's that sending players out on loan guarantees their development! 😂

[Bluearmyfox28]

2 hours ago, Shane said:

In my opinion, Leshabela and Tavares are both more talented, but maybe Brendan has seen something in training & prefers Dewsbury-Hall.

I think it’s his overall leadership & professionalism that puts him above the other two.

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

If the club don't believe a player is ever likely to break into our 1st team surely they should be moved on for our benefit and theirs. I think we're actually doing them a disservice and blunting their development by hanging on to them.

 

But then I'm not in favour of the U23 system at best it should be U21 or if they want a PL2 just do it as a reserves set up so you can mix young with experience whilst giving squad payers game time. We then wouldn't get managers moaning that their squad players can't last 90mins when they only play once a month.

 

If you moved on every player that the coaching staff thought had zero chance of making it to the first team squad then we wouldn't be able to field a team at any level.

 

The system should be about identifying players who have a chance of breaking into the first team squad or fall short of that expectation but can command a fee in the future. The rest of the players and by that I mean the majority are just there to fill the numbers up so we can field a team for them to play with. 

 

The whole system should be conducive for players like Tavares, Pennant, etc to be given every opportunity to develop at the expense of results and the other "makeweight" players. If Tavares is ripping it up at U18 level then he should be moved to a higher level in the U23's even if he is currently inferior to a current U23 player who is three years older but going nowhere in his career. 

[TJB-fox]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

If the club don't believe a player is ever likely to break into our 1st team surely they should be moved on for our benefit and theirs. I think we're actually doing them a disservice and blunting their development by hanging on to them.

 

But then I'm not in favour of the U23 system at best it should be U21 or if they want a PL2 just do it as a reserves set up so you can mix young with experience whilst giving squad payers game time. We then wouldn't get managers moaning that their squad players can't last 90mins when they only play once a month.

Not necessarily. Football wise totally it stunts their growth but financially it is likely to be beneficial to both parties to keep the player at the club. Dewsbury-Hall for example might be on 1-1.5k a week here, whereas if he left for a league 2 / national league club at the age of 19 to pursue first team football he’d be on 400-600 pounds a week. For us, although we’re paying his wages we might be able to sell him now or in the summer for 300-400k to a league one or championship club. That money can then be pumped right back into our academy. 

[davieG]

45 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

If you moved on every player that the coaching staff thought had zero chance of making it to the first team squad then we wouldn't be able to field a team at any level.

 

The system should be about identifying players who have a chance of breaking into the first team squad or fall short of that expectation but can command a fee in the future. The rest of the players and by that I mean the majority are just there to fill the numbers up so we can field a team for them to play with. 

 

The whole system should be conducive for players like Tavares, Pennant, etc to be given every opportunity to develop at the expense of results and the other "makeweight" players. If Tavares is ripping it up at U18 level then he should be moved to a higher level in the U23's even if he is currently inferior to a current U23 player who is three years older but going nowhere in his career. 

I'm referring to those who fill up the u23s for several seasons never looking like getting in the 1st team being moved on and blocking opportunities for those younger early developers which you then go on to mention.

 

[davieG]

53 minutes ago, TJB-fox said:

Not necessarily. Football wise totally it stunts their growth but financially it is likely to be beneficial to both parties to keep the player at the club. Dewsbury-Hall for example might be on 1-1.5k a week here, whereas if he left for a league 2 / national league club at the age of 19 to pursue first team football he’d be on 400-600 pounds a week. For us, although we’re paying his wages we might be able to sell him now or in the summer for 300-400k to a league one or championship club. That money can then be pumped right back into our academy. 

Money wise maybe but players like KDH have no experience of playing professional competitive football in a real life environment, I really don't see how that is beneficial to his career.  By moving to a L2 side earlier and playing regular football they will have the opportunity to show they are good enough for L1 and the Championship. When they move on you can always include a buy back clause to get your £300/400k.

 

Obviously it all depends on the individual players. I just get the feeling we hang on to players too long before giving them that experience as someone who has trained and managed Engineering Apprentices I've learnt never to underestimate their true potential. 

[lgfualol]

Good to see we are loaning him out. I suspected on his cameo that he has been in our academy a bit too long based off some stuff he did.

 

With regards to Ndukwu, Hughes, etc even if players go out on loan and it is shit, it is experience and character building surely? I bet 99% of the over 21 year olds we have trapped in the academy would trade 1 start in senior football over a tinpot youth trophy that you won beating kids in other academies. 

[Guest An Sionnach]

19 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Good to see we are loaning him out. I suspected on his cameo that he has been in our academy a bit too long based off some stuff he did.

 

With regards to Ndukwu, Hughes, etc even if players go out on loan and it is shit, it is experience and character building surely? I bet 99% of the over 21 year olds we have trapped in the academy would trade 1 start in senior football over a tinpot youth trophy that you won beating kids in other academies. 

They have been playing against Div. 1 and Div. 2 first teamers. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

2 hours ago, nwl fox said:

Well if there's anything the loans of Ndukwu, Hughes & Johnson has taught us, it's that sending players out on loan guarantees their development! 😂

Worked OK for Barnes, Chillwell and Hamza! 

[Dan]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Tbf it could just be that he isn't good enough, wasn't ready for Football League football and the club don't think he'll break in to our first team. 

If that's the case then I don't see why we even bothered playing him at Brentford to be honest.