The Politics Thread 2020

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, Abrasive fox said:

How Sunak navigates this will be a far bigger issue than the handling of the pandemic and DC's movement, but it may leave some scars. Be interesting to see how this is navigated.

Yes, this is going to very interesting, as I assume his credit in the bank will not last for long should he take steps to balance the books with tax rises. An unwanted and unanticipated secondary round of austerity seems inevitable at some point. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

Bit odd to say ‘move on’. Polls suggest a majority of the people think he’s done wrong and should be sacked. Tory MPs and even apolitical religious heads think he should stand down. The only person at fault for this dragging out is the guy bullheaded enough not to just apologise day one. It’s been exacerbated by the flawed stories and contradictory accounts and from the point we’re at it won’t end now until there’s decisive action either way. It’s got to the point where the cabinet is ‘reviewing lockdown rules around families’ to get him out of dodge. 
 

I said yesterday, and I maintain that here, that I’m done discussing this because I don’t think there’s much left to convince or persuade others. This is now a matter of damage limitation rather than any kind of debate. All I’m gonna say is claiming this story is ‘old’, ‘stale’ or we all need to ‘move on’ is going to be hard to sell when there’s literally developments by the day and no clear resolution apparent.
 

If you’re bored of it, just discuss something else. There was several other discussions running parallel in the Coronavirus thread you could have participated in whilst not fuelling the Cummings debate by adding that you’re tired of it. I’m not being funny, this argument seems to be trotted out by people who have an interest in the story disappearing, and they’re just as culpable as people regularly posting updates on it.

 

If you don’t like a post and don’t wish to discuss it, talk about something else. It’s really that simple.

For the record I never started this thread, it was moved from the Coronavirus post.

 

Nor have I told anyone to move on (if people are aiming that comment at me?), hence the quotation marks, I think that's the line the Government will spin to try to get us to move on.

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Nor have I told anyone to move on (if people are aiming that comment at me?), hence the quotation marks, I think that's the line the Government will spin to try to get us to move on.

Yep sorry wasn't towards you. Seen it bandied around loads in last 24 hours. 

[Nick]

From some bloke on Twitter....

 

1. Dominic Cummings, one of the few men to have ever been found in contempt of Parliament, moved onto contempt for everything

 

2. When the story broke, and he was accused of doing things that look bad, he said he didn't care how things looked 

 

3. Then ministers said press outrage meant nothing, only the opinion of the people mattered 

 

4. Then polls showed 52% of people wanted Cummings to resign

 

5. So Cummings decided to show the public some respect, by turning up 30 minutes late to make his explanation 

 

6. He began by saying he wasn't speaking for the govt, which must be why he was in the Rose Garden of 10 Downing Street 

 

7. Then the self-styled "enemy of the Islington media elite" said his wife, who works in the media, had been ill in their house in Islington

 

8. But she was only a bit ill, so he popped home, got himself nice and infected, then went back to Downing Street for meetings with lots of vitally important people in the middle of a national crisis

 

9. But then he got ill too, so then it was suddenly important

 

10. Sadly he couldn't get childcare in London, even though 3 immediate relatives live within 3 miles of his London home

 

11. So because he was carrying a virus that can cross a 2 metre distance and kill, he immediately locked himself in a car with his wife and child for 5 hours

 

12. He then drove 264 miles without stopping in a Land Rover that gets maybe 25 MPG

 

13. Then the scourge of the metropolitan elites made himself extra-relatable by describing his family's sprawling country estate, multiple houses and idyllic woodlands

 

14. He explained that he'd warned about a coronavirus years ago in his blog

 

15. Then it was revealed he actually secretly amended old blogs after he'd returned from Durham

 

16. And anyway, if he'd warned years ago, why was he so massively unprepared and slow to react?

 

17. Then he said he was too ill to move for a week

 

18. But in the middle of that week, presumably with "wonky eyes", he drove his child to hospital

 

19. Then he said that to test his "wonky eyes" he put his wife and child in a car and drove 30 miles on public roads

 

20. Then it was revealed his wife drives, so there was no reason for the "eye test", cos she could have driven them back to London 

 

21. Then it was revealed the "eye test" trip to a local tourist spot took place on his wife's birthday

 

22. Then cameras filmed as he threw a cup onto the table, smirked and left

 

23. And then it emerged his wife had written an article during the time in Dunham, describing their experience of being in lockdown in London, which you'd definitely do if you weren't hiding anything 

 

24. A govt scientific advisor said "more people will die" as a result of what Cummings had done.

 

25. Boris Johnson said he "wouldn't mark Cummings " down for what he'd done.

 

26. The Attorney General said it was ok to break the law if you were acting on instinct

 

27. The Health Minister said it was OK to endanger public health if you meant well

 

28. Johnson said Cummings' "story rings true" because his own eyesight was fine before coronavirus, but now he needs glasses

 

29. But in an interview with The Telegraph 5 years ago, Johnson said he needed glasses cos he was "blind as a bat"

 

30. Michael Gove went on TV and said it was "wise" to drive 30 miles on public roads with your family in the car to test your eyesight

 

31. The DVLA tweeted that you should never, ever do this

 

32. Then ministers started claiming Cummings had to go to Durham because he feared crowds attacking his home. The streets were empty because we were observing the lockdown.

 

33. And then a minister finally resigned

 

34. Steve Baker, Richard Littlejohn, Isabel Oakeshott, Tim Montgomerie, Jan Moir, Ian Dale, Julia Hartley Brewer, 30 Tory MPs, half a dozen bishops and the actual Daily Mail said Cummings should go

 

35. The govt suggested we can ignore them, because they're all left-wingers

 

36. Then a vicar asked Matt Hancock if other people who had been fined for doing exactly what Cummings did would get their fine dropped. Matt Hancock said he'd suggest it to the govt

 

37. The govt said no within an hour. Cummings' statement had lasted longer than that

 

38. And if the guidelines were so clear, why were people being stopped and fined for driving to find childcare in the first place?

 

39. Then a new poll found people who wanted Cummings sacked had risen from 52% to 57%

 

40. Cummings is considered the smartest man in the govt

 

41. And in the middle of all this, in case we take our eye off it: we reached 60,000 deaths. One of the highest per capita death rates worldwide.

 

42. We still face Brexit under this lot.

 

43. It's 4 years until an election 

 

44. And it's still only Wednesday

Edited 27 May 2020 by Swan Lesta

[Dahnsouff]

You trying to get this thread locked in record time @Swan Lesta ?  

[Nick]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

You trying to get this thread locked in record time @Swan Lesta ?  

Have I done something wrong? I saw people on about Cummings in the first couple of pages so thought this was the place for the amusing time line...

 

Apologies - I’d have put it in funny photos thread but it wasn’t really an image!

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Swan Lesta said:

Have I done something wrong? I saw people on about Cummings in the first couple of pages so thought this was the place for the amusing time line...

 

Apologies - I’d have put it in funny photos thread but it wasn’t really an image!

Not at all! Was a very poor jest is all. Not sure why we don`t have a dedicated Cummings thread, as the topic does not relate to politics beyond him being an advisor to the PM (And its not that he is being rightly panned for)

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097

 

Hopefully this doesn't get uglier than it is.

[StanSP]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097

 

Hopefully this doesn't get uglier than it is.

A lot of double standards coming out of this.

 

They protest the death of a black man. Get treated in return with tear gas and attacks. 

 

In other states, (mainly white?) citizens storm a government office and there's no such force shown in return. 

[Finnaldo]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

For the record I never started this thread, it was moved from the Coronavirus post.

 

Nor have I told anyone to move on (if people are aiming that comment at me?), hence the quotation marks, I think that's the line the Government will spin to try to get us to move on.

None of it was aimed at you in particular, it’s just this rising sentiment of people getting antsy over the Cummings debate. I thought it was a point getting over early in this thread that if you’re bored or don’t want to talk about a subject, don’t comment on it, find a new subject to talk about.
 

If people stopped moaning and were more civil (on both sides) then we could easily have multiple conversations on one thread. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, StanSP said:

A lot of double standards coming out of this.

 

They protest the death of a black man. Get treated in return with tear gas and attacks. 

 

In other states, (mainly white?) citizens storm a government office and there's no such force shown in return. 

Nah.

 

You see Stan, there are "protesting violent thugs" and then there are "concerned citizens" who also happen to be "very fine people". As such, they need to be treated differently...

 

...right?

[Captain...]

Ultimately the biggest issue for me is not what he did, anyone with children should be able empathise. He was in a difficult situation and had access to a remote isolated house close to a support network. If I was in that situation and I had that option I would probably take it. We discussed a number of options to protect our family and some of them included travelling to locations that had better support networks. We didn't take them, but then none of them were as perfect as a house on a family estate. 

 

This is the crucial part, if we had taken one of those options and got caught we would have held our hands up and said fair cop. We looked to bend/break the rules to our advantage. Like a friend who drove to Cardiff to stay with a friend so she could go shopping for her parents and disabled sister. She agonised over that decision because she knew it was wrong but put her family first. Or other friends who used their parents/in laws to look after their child. They knew they shouldn't, but needs dictated. I have loads of examples of people knowingly breaking the rules, and I doubt I'm the only one, the big difference is that DC has refused to accept he has done anything wrong. 

 

Boris and his motley crew, who stood behind a podium stating "STAY AT HOME" for weeks, have all supported him. The refusal for any of these people to say he has done anything wrong is the most damaging aspect of all of this for the government. Just highlighting the difference between them and the public.

 

The correct way to handle this would have been with a mitigated apology, offering of resignation that Boris refuses, a reprimand and some sort of token gesture. Story blows over.

[fuchsntf]

24 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Ultimately the biggest issue for me is not what he did, anyone with children should be able empathise. He was in a difficult situation and had access to a remote isolated house close to a support network. If I was in that situation and I had that option I would probably take it. We discussed a number of options to protect our family and some of them included travelling to locations that had better support networks. We didn't take them, but then none of them were as perfect as a house on a family estate. 

 

This is the crucial part, if we had taken one of those options and got caught we would have held our hands up and said fair cop. We looked to bend/break the rules to our advantage. Like a friend who drove to Cardiff to stay with a friend so she could go shopping for her parents and disabled sister. She agonised over that decision because she knew it was wrong but put her family first. Or other friends who used their parents/in laws to look after their child. They knew they shouldn't, but needs dictated. I have loads of examples of people knowingly breaking the rules, and I doubt I'm the only one, the big difference is that DC has refused to accept he has done anything wrong. 

 

Boris and his motley crew, who stood behind a podium stating "STAY AT HOME" for weeks, have all supported him. The refusal for any of these people to say he has done anything wrong is the most damaging aspect of all of this for the government. Just highlighting the difference between them and the public.

 

The correct way to handle this would have been with a mitigated apology, offering of resignation that Boris refuses, a reprimand and some sort of token gesture. Story blows over.

If People Think this will blow over....noway..!

At present the UK govt, has wiped its nonchelent,arrogant feet over the British law abiding public,in these most awkward & important a times in their own experienced life's history.

Even hardened Consevative full blue members,will mark this down. Their Party is still more important than the Johnson public-distaining Set up.

There will be Internal consequences, that has to be seen,and shown to the potential electorate,even if that 'E' word is 4 years away....

The Top Running Ministers are Falling over themselves,in Making awkward pathetic excusing statements...others have resigned. If nothing comes out of this,then their Shame knows no bounds....I

Clever-arses ,wont be forgotten....UK electorate & General public who suffered/sacrificed more on more decisive making decisions Wont forget...!

 

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097

 

Hopefully this doesn't get uglier than it is.

The video of the killing is quite confronting. The “police officer” basically just kept his knee on the guy in what looked like quite deliberate murder. He didn’t seem to be making any attempt to cuff him or anything.

[Dahnsouff]

52 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Removed as in total agreement

 

The correct way to handle this would have been with a mitigated apology, offering of resignation that Boris refuses, a reprimand and some sort of token gesture. Story blows over.

The last bit though, I am not so sure on.

I agree he would be better to say "you got me, I did what I thought was best, but accept it did not match recommendations, sorry!", but if he had offered to resign and Boris rejected the offer, I suspect that the public would be on Boris' back demanding he sack him regardless.

[MC Prussian]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097

 

Hopefully this doesn't get uglier than it is.

Two wrongs:

a) Excessive police force while apprehending a suspect.

b) Rioting, breaking & entering and looting. People had a field day disguising themselves with masks. I thought mass gatherings were still not allowed, even in the US?

Edited 27 May 2020 by MC Prussian

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MC Prussian said:

Two wrongs:

a) Excessive police force while apprehending a suspect.

b) Rioting, breaking & entering and looting. People had a field day disguising themselves with masks. I thought mass gatherings were still not allowed, even in the US?

I thought they were too - but evidently it depends on where you are, who you are and the Wisconsin tooled-up-with-assualt-rifle lockdown protestors didn't seem to mind; they didn't get the long handle despite being armed to the teeth.

 

Is there any actual evidence for the breaking, entering and looting part wrt civilian buildings or should I run and get some more straw?

[MC Prussian]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I thought they were too - but evidently it depends on where you are, who you are and the Wisconsin tooled-up-with-assualt-rifle lockdown protestors didn't seem to mind; they didn't get the long handle despite being armed to the teeth.

 

Is there any actual evidence for the breaking, entering and looting part wrt civilian buildings or should I run and get some more straw?

Quote

"I would like to consider myself an active participant in the protest simply by being there, but I did not participate in any throwing of rocks or looting.

"I was there from before the time the cops showed up until the crowd began to disperse, probably 3.5 hours total.

"I personally think this protest got out of hand, it was a very frightening environment.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/minneapolis-police-fire-flash-grenades-200000916.html

 

On a sidenote, I think many of the links you post in politics threads aren't political per se, and I do hope you're not using socio-economic or cultural issues in the US for example as a mean to imply it has something to do with the current government.

Now that'd be clinging onto straws.

 

Police brutality in the US has been around for a long time, and so does one-sided media coverage.

Look up "Kelly Thomas, Orange County" and ask yourself why we've hardly ever heard of him.

Edited 27 May 2020 by MC Prussian

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/minneapolis-police-fire-flash-grenades-200000916.html

 

On a sidenote, I think many of the links you post in politics threads aren't political per se, and I do hope you're not using socio-economic issues in the US as a mean to imply it has something to do with the current legislation.

Now that'd be clinging onto straws.

Hmmm...due to some kind of cookie anomaly, I can't view that Yahoo site. If you copy and paste the text I'll have a look.

 

WRT the second sentence, I think that the current and past socioeconomic situation in the US is inextricably political, seeing as it is political decisions throughout society that result in it being in the way it is. This current administration doesn't bear full responsibility for things being the way they are - the story goes back far longer than that - but given the polarisation that currently exists between various factions in the US I don't think they're helping make it much better.

[StanSP]

Anyone watching this meeting with the liaison committee? 

 

Boris isn't really answering the questions

 

[MC Prussian]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Hmmm...due to some kind of cookie anomaly, I can't view that Yahoo site. If you copy and paste the text I'll have a look.

 

WRT the second sentence, I think that the current and past socioeconomic situation in the US is inextricably political, seeing as it is political decisions throughout society that result in it being in the way it is. This current administration doesn't bear full responsibility for things being the way they are - the story goes back far longer than that - but given the polarisation that currently exists between various factions in the US I don't think they're helping make it much better.

If the polarization were such an issue (and I do believe the US media play a big part as an often despicable third party with their sensationalist and selective take on issues), then how come US crime rates have decreased lately?

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2019-preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-released-012120

Crime rates since 2017 have gone down each year (with the odd exception in the report on 2017).

 

All of that whilst the US population keeps increasing, it rose by three million in between 2017 and 2019.

As for the Yahoo UK report, just google it ("Minneapolis, looting").

https://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+looting&client=safari&rls=en&sxsrf=ALeKk02tDQmQ96vhlcOm8MqCGjeq0RvjhA:1590592471787&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWkY3aqtTpAhXKsaQKHWM1D0kQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1440&bih=789

 

Maybe this one works:

https://newsone.com/playlist/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-protest-photos-video/

Edited 27 May 2020 by MC Prussian

[Mike Oxlong]

5 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Anyone watching this meeting with the liaison committee? 

 

Boris isn't really answering the questions

 

He did when he said he wouldn’t commit to another appearance before the summer recess  

[StanSP]

Meg Hillier with her best Jeremy Paxman impression there! 

 

Interesting that Johnson says 'if it pleases you, I'll say yes' when questioned if he saw evidence of Cummings actions in their 6-hour meeting. He won't provide that evidence to cabinet sec still though. 

[Jon the Hat]

 

2 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

From some bloke on Twitter....

12. He then drove 264 miles without stopping in a Land Rover that gets maybe 25 MPG

I can confirm that a Land Rover Discovery 4 (like mine) has a range of well over 300 miles, and comfortably more than that on motorway journeys.

[Mike Oxlong]

Johnson wants the people to “move on” with him to the next stage but seems oblivious to the notion that it may be difficult to trust in government when there is a lack of consistency, honesty and openness