The Politics Thread 2020

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Sorry, I just don`t like the presidential style referencing.

It wasn't though was it. As I pointed out, a large amount of people wanted him as the next PM, were talking him up to take the job when May quit. It's not talking in presidential terms if you asking those people why they wanted him to take that role.

[Spudulike]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

This is basically just descending into if you're a Tory then you believe he's done nothing wrong and everything is the fault of lefty scum, or if you're not a Tory then he needs hanging.

 

This is exactly why Starmer wants to move the conversation on, he needs to destroy this ridiculous tribalistic, take a side at all costs attitude in order to have any chance in 2024. For Cummings this is perfect, he wants the us v them narrative. 

Well I'm not a Tory or anything else politically (I spoiled my paper at the last GE) and I can see through all this media driven bullshit bias.

 

So bloody obvious and I'm glad the BBC has been pulled up on it. As for C4 news....

[LiberalFox]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is basically just descending into if you're a Tory then you believe he's done nothing wrong and everything is the fault of lefty scum, or if you're not a Tory then he needs hanging.

 

This is exactly why Starmer wants to move the conversation on, he needs to destroy this ridiculous tribalistic, take a side at all costs attitude in order to have any chance in 2024. For Cummings this is perfect, he wants the us v them narrative. 

Pretty much, the damage has been done and carrying on will serve no purpose. 

[Chocolate Teapot]

5 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is basically just descending into if you're a Tory then you believe he's done nothing wrong and everything is the fault of lefty scum, or if you're not a Tory then he needs hanging.

 

This is exactly why Starmer wants to move the conversation on, he needs to destroy this ridiculous tribalistic, take a side at all costs attitude in order to have any chance in 2024. For Cummings this is perfect, he wants the us v them narrative. 

Completely agree with this. Fed up with this ridiculous tribalism.

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

It wasn't though was it. As I pointed out, a large amount of people wanted him as the next PM, were talking him up to take the job when May quit. It's not talking in presidential terms if you asking those people why they wanted him to take that role.

Fair enough, maybe I missed all the pro-Boris stuff 

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

Interesting you mention this. 

 

Keir Starmer seems to have united a Labour party in disarray and found valid points to target his opposition with so far but when he did it, it was 'easy pickings' and expected of him, with little credit attributed to him. 

 

With Boris doing the same for the Tories (galvanising them) and stomping a general election where, let's face it, wasn't exactly difficult when Corbyn is the opposition leader, he's commended for it and praised, being a 'decent leader'. 

 

I think if Boris is a decent leader in just the aspect of Brexit, I think Starmer has to be given similar credit for how he's handled the job so far at a time like this. 

 

Well May tried the same thing and got a beating? Easy to pass it off as an easy win after the fact, but the lead up to it was looking closer than the finish surely. 

 

And I think Starmer has been given similar credit? I saw a fair few tory fans liking posts in the starmer thread mentioning the recent tory turnarounds. 

[Voll Blau]

 

7 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is basically just descending into if you're a Tory then you believe he's done nothing wrong and everything is the fault of lefty scum, or if you're not a Tory then he needs hanging.

 

This is exactly why Starmer wants to move the conversation on, he needs to destroy this ridiculous tribalistic, take a side at all costs attitude in order to have any chance in 2024. For Cummings this is perfect, he wants the us v them narrative. 

 

Not quite sure you can frame it that way when dozens of Tory MPs, acting on the feedback they've had from the people who elected them, have now publicly called for his resignation. There are plenty of Tory voters across the land who have stuck to the rules despite undergoing awful hardships in the past couple of months, but will rightly feel betrayed by his actions and lack of contrition.

Edited 28 May 2020 by Voll Blau

[David Guiza]

2 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is basically just descending into if you're a Tory then you believe he's done nothing wrong and everything is the fault of lefty scum, or if you're not a Tory then he needs hanging.

 

This is exactly why Starmer wants to move the conversation on, he needs to destroy this ridiculous tribalistic, take a side at all costs attitude in order to have any chance in 2024. For Cummings this is perfect, he wants the us v them narrative. 

Easier said than done, unfortunately. The Labour left won't accept Starmer until he gets the hammer and sickle tattoed on his chest, the Tory right won't accept Boris until he drives builds a wall around the UK to stop anybody coming in. It's a total and utter mess.

 

Mine, and I think many others, biggest concern about the whole Cummings story is the lack of transparency (again) and how easy it is for the Government to dismiss their own rules when it suits them. Yes his actions were hardly the worst thing that's happened to this country in even the past 7 days, but it represents the 'do as we say, not as we do' cavalier attitude that builds mistrust in any government. 

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Well May tried the same thing and got a beating? Easy to pass it off as an easy win after the fact, but the lead up to it was looking closer than the finish surely. 

 

And I think Starmer has been given similar credit? I saw a fair few tory fans liking posts in the starmer thread mentioning the recent tory turnarounds. 

There were some if I remember correctly who couldn't bring themselves to do so! 

 

Anyway, it was just an observation and I don't want to turn it in to an argument or anything of the kind. This new Politics thread is doing well and don't want to ruin that! 

[Guesty]

9 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

Durham Police sound like they don’t want anything to do with it really. Done the investigation to avoid accusations they let it fly because it was a government official, but they’ve released a fairly light statement on it. I can’t blame them, right now the last thing you’d think they’d want to be dragged into is a political scandal.

Does sort of bring the Attorney General into it now; which makes it harder for them. She's put herself in a bad spot. She tweeted defending him; yet the police say he's broken the guidlines and they would have sent him home. His speech looked like it had had legal advice. Be even worse if she's advised him; she's in charge of the people who made the law and would've been prosecuting him if a fine had been issued and he'd fought it. Some lawyers saying that she might have made her position untenable. 

 

[Finnaldo]

9 minutes ago, Guesty said:

Does sort of bring the Attorney General into it now; which makes it harder for them. She's put herself in a bad spot. She tweeted defending him; yet the police say he's broken the guidlines and they would have sent him home. His speech looked like it had had legal advice. Be even worse if she's advised him; she's in charge of the people who made the law and would've been prosecuting him if a fine had been issued and he'd fought it. Some lawyers saying that she might have made her position untenable. 

 

This really has spiralled out of control. Too many went in to fight the fire and came out burned. It’s a shame because this could have all been but to bed by Saturday with some honesty, transparency and integrity. It’s my opinion Cummings got what was coming to him, but this is beginning to completely undermine several functions of government. It needs a solution soon for the good of the country and the pandemic response effort.

[Strokes]

My take on the Cummings saga, as I always said, depended upon the validity of the second event.

I always felt a little bit of compassion with the first as even though it was a bit daft, I could see myself doing the same. The second one is beyond reproach, and I’m disappointed that it’s been deemed acceptable by the government. I’m not fussed by him being sacked but acknowledgment of the rules being broken would go along way.

Have I lost faith in the conservatives and Boris, yeah a little bit.

[RobHawk]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

My take on the Cummings saga, as I always said, depended upon the validity of the second event.

I always felt a little bit of compassion with the first as even though it was a bit daft, I could see myself doing the same. The second one is beyond reproach, and I’m disappointed that it’s been deemed acceptable by the government. I’m not fussed by him being sacked but acknowledgment of the rules being broken would go along way.

Have I lost faith in the conservatives and Boris, yeah a little bit.

I think that's spot on tbf, breaking the lockdown is one thing, but the response from the government and Cummings himself have made the situation 10 times worse. 

 

Even as a leftie, I want the government to succeed during this time and for to swallow some pride and admit I was wrong because it means they've done an amazing job through this pandemic and countless lives have been saved. 

 

Unfortunately that's not the case and I dont think history will be kind to Boris. This could be his Iraq.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

All that is true, but it doesn't stop people thinking he's a good leader. People were chomping at bit for him to replace May, before he actually fought an election. So I think it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask those people, who wanted him to be PM, even though they couldn't directly vote for him as an MP, why they wanted it, and what they saw in him that thought he make a good leader.

OK if you insist.  I voted Conservative with Boris as PM, and if I were an MP I might also have voed for him to lead the party.

He has a clear vision of Britain in the world, including leaving the EU and the essential principles under which we should trade with the EU in future.

He doesn't get lost in the detail (or indeed pay much attention to it)

He has confidence in the capability of our country to overcome the challenges of Brexit, and that confidence is good for the country - will also come into play with the economic recovery post COVID-19 lockdown.

He isn't afraid to change his mind on details - as we have seen with the NHS workers excluded from the levy last week - when it is the right thing, and costs little.

Far from being weak, he is showing commendable loyalty to his key man in the face of massive poltical pressure.  This shows that he is not a pushover / pure populist.

 

I will be clear and say Boris is not the leader for every situation - and we might look back and say he and his team screwed up some things on the COVID-19 response, but my strong feeling is just as he was the man to take us out of the EU, he is well placed to pull us out of the coming recession, with bold and ambitous plans.

That said, we were lacking credible alternatives last year, and I strongly hope both Labour and the other parts of the Tory party can develop talent to be our next leader.  Sunak looks a candidate, and I hope we see others shining in the coming years.

Edited 28 May 2020 by Jon the Hat

[Facecloth]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

OK if you insist.  I voted Conservative with Boris as PM, and if I were an MP I might also have voed for him to lead the party.

He has a clear vision of Britain in the world, including leaving the EU and the essential principles under which we should trade with the EU in future.

He doesn't get lost in the detail (or indeed pay much attention to it)

He has confidence in the capability of our country to overcome the challenges of Brexit, and that confidence is good for the country - will also come into play with the economic recovery post COVID-19 lockdown.

He isn't afraid to change his mind on details - as we have seen with the NHS workers excluded from the levy last week - when it is the right thing, and costs little.

Far from being weak, he is showing commendable loyalty to his key man in the face of massive poltical pressure.  This shows that he is not a pushover / pure populist.

 

I will be clear and say Boris is not the leader for every situation - and we might look back and say he and his team screwed up some things on the COVID-19 response, but by strong feeling is just as he was the man to take us out of the EU, he is well placed to pull us out of the coming recession, with bold and ambitous plans.

That said, we were lacking credible alternatives last year, and I strongly hope both Labour and the other parts of the Tory party can develop talent to be our next leader.  Sunak looks a candidate, and I hope we see others shining in the coming years.

@Stan here's an answer for you finally.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

@Stan here's an answer for you finally.

Sorry meant to reply to stan!

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Sorry meant to reply to stan!

No problem. I just thought he might not see it 

[StanSP]

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

Got to say that I’m genuinely gobsmacked by the laissez faire attitude to mandatory isolation of people infected with the virus as displayed in these pages. Not just by those that are obviously just trying to defend Cummings and Johnson because they’re on their team, but by others who seem to think it’s just a technical breach.

 

Attitudes here In Perth (Australia) are totally different. The guy in the article below breached quarantine in order to see his girlfriend, after travelling from Victoria (also in Australia). He was not symptomatic, but WA state authorities had implemented a mandatory 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving from other Australian states. It is still in effect.
 

He was arrested, charged and sentenced to 6 months, partially suspended, and everyone I’ve spoken to was pleased to see him punished.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-15/man-jailed-for-breaching-coronavirus-quarantine-by-leaving-hotel/12149908

 

I guess you can have a disciplined, effective response to this virus or you can have 60,000 deaths.

 

Probably time I shut up, perhaps I’ve been out of the UK too long to understand the national psyche any more.

 

 

Edited 28 May 2020 by WigstonWanderer

[MC Prussian]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

WRT voter suppression, I have but one question; why wait until such tactics can be used in a key election before addressing it? "There's not enough time" doesn't seem good enough to me when the democratic process itself is being subverted like this.

Well, why putting the idea of mail-in voting forward only now? The Democrats and particular, Dem-dominated states have had three years to come up with something more "just".

The timing now, in the year of the presidential election, seems rather odd.

[Innovindil]

3 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Well, why putting the idea of mail-in voting forward only now? The Democrats and particular, Dem-dominated states have had three years to come up with something more "just".

The timing now, in the year of the presidential election, seems rather odd.

Dunno man, gonna guess because there's a global pandemic going on and there's literally a hundred thousand people dead across america because they got close to someone else. 

[MC Prussian]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Dunno man, gonna guess because there's a global pandemic going on and there's literally a hundred thousand people dead across america because they got close to someone else. 

Well, some may see that as an explanation or a reason, some may call it an excuse.

[Innovindil]

Just now, MC Prussian said:

Well, some may see that as an explanation or a reason, some may call it an excuse.

Either way, not having large gatherings of people when there is no legitimate reason why there shouldn't be SHOULD be seen as a positive, surely.

[MC Prussian]

11 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Either way, not having large gatherings of people when there is no legitimate reason why there shouldn't be SHOULD be seen as a positive, surely.

It's possible to stick to the current system: You can guide people with regular voting booths accordingly, but only if you prepare it correctly, of course.

[Jon the Hat]

30 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Got to say that I’m genuinely gobsmacked by the laissez faire attitude to mandatory isolation of people infected with the virus as displayed in these pages. Not just by those that are obviously just trying to defend Cummings and Johnson because they’re on their team, but by others who seem to think it’s just a technical breach.

 

Attitudes here In Perth (Australia) are totally different. The guy in the article below breached quarantine in order to see his girlfriend, after travelling from Victoria (also in Australia). He was not symptomatic, but WA state authorities had implemented a mandatory 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving from other Australian states. It is still in effect.
 

He was arrested, charged and sentenced to 6 months, partially suspended, and everyone I’ve spoken to was pleased to see him punished.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-15/man-jailed-for-breaching-coronavirus-quarantine-by-leaving-hotel/12149908

 

I guess you can have a disciplined, effective response to this virus or you can have 60,000 deaths.

 

Probably time I shut up, perhaps I’ve been out of the UK too long to understand the national psyche any more.

 

 

Australia can afford to cut itself off, it is cut off anyway!