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filbertway

Coronavirus Thread

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24 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

It amazes me that people seem so willing to blindly swallow the latest nonsense being spouted on Facebook/Twitter/YouTube, and then just accept it as fact without actually doing any checking that it is even remotely close to being factual. The worrying thing is that so many people actually seem to believe the bullshit, the funniest thing though is when it's followed by coming on here and asking why people believe what they are told, with absolutely no irony whatsoever lol 

 

Just in the last 24 hours we've had claims that:

 

There's been more suicides - no, there haven't

Millions have been made redundant - not in the UK they haven't

Face masks don't work - yes they do

Mental health is suffering - I'd suggest getting off the absolute cesspools of misinformation that are FB and Twitter then, that might help...

Once over the initial anger, I've often found the musings of people who think they know better than actual scientists quite entertaining, but never really understood why. But I think this is it. It's the irony. 

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I haven't stated that masks do not work.  I have stated that in their present guise, they are ineffective.

 

Latest data:

 

image.png.ed990f8167b6d9197162b862b91aad58.png

 

Still miles off Vallance's doomsday prediction, even if you add in the Excel gaff spike.  Van Tam would have you thinking otherwise though at 9am this morning.

Edited by Legend_in_blue
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15 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

There is plenty out there to suggest that they are not effective. 

 

4 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

I haven't stated that masks do not work.  I have stated that in their present guise, they are ineffective.

 

lol Ok, I'll be the one to bite.

 

What is the difference between 'not effective', 'ineffective', and 'do not work'?

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55 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

It amazes me that people seem so willing to blindly swallow the latest nonsense being spouted on Facebook/Twitter/YouTube, and then just accept it as fact without actually doing any checking that it is even remotely close to being factual. The worrying thing is that so many people actually seem to believe the bullshit, the funniest thing though is when it's followed by coming on here and asking why people believe what they are told, with absolutely no irony whatsoever lol 

 

Just in the last 24 hours we've had claims that:

 

There's been more suicides - no, there haven't

Millions have been made redundant - not in the UK they haven't

Face masks don't work - yes they do

Mental health is suffering - I'd suggest getting off the absolute cesspools of misinformation that are FB and Twitter then, that might help...

Outlandish claims > reasoned arguments.

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18 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

I haven't stated that masks do not work.  I have stated that in their present guise, they are ineffective.

 

Latest data:

 

image.png.ed990f8167b6d9197162b862b91aad58.png

 

Still miles off Vallance's doomsday prediction, even if you add in the Excel gaff spike.  Van Tam would have you thinking otherwise though at 9am this morning.

It was a 'worst case scenario' rather than a prediction, there's a clear distinction between the two. Van Tam has made it clear that if we do nothing, we are heading back to where we were in March/April, a situation we are all keen to avoid, surely? 

 

Taken from the Guardian:

 

The UK is at a “tipping point” in the Covid-19 crisis and must act swiftly to avoid history “repeating itself”, the deputy chief medical officer, Jonathan Van-Tam, has said.

In a stark warning highlighting the worst is yet to come if we do not “all act now”, Van-Tam said the country was “at a tipping point similar to where we were in March”, and that the approach of winter made the situation even more grave.

“Winter in the NHS is always a difficult period, and that is why in the first wave our strategy was ‘contain, delay, research and mitigate’ to push the first wave into spring,” he said. “This time it is different as we are now are going into the colder, darker winter months. We are in the middle of a severe pandemic and the seasons are against us. Basically, we are running into a headwind.”

An estimated 224,000 people have contracted the virus this week in the UK, up from 116,000 a week ago, according to the Office for National Statistics. In his statement, Van-Tam asked people to stick to the rules to suppress the resurgence of the virus by washing their hands regularly, wearing face coverings in confined spaces, practising social distancing and self-isolating after testing positive.

“I would say, actually, we are beyond the tipping point. To be perfectly honest, I think it’s perhaps being a little bit optimistic. We are clearly on the path of exponential growth,” said Martin McKee, the professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

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1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

It's just unfortunate that the voices of misinformation seem to be so much louder than those of the truths, at least that's how it seems at present

It's difficult, though. You seem to be implying everything coming from 'official' sources (i.e. government) is always true, which of course is not always the case.

 

If only it were that simple.

 

In fact this is why many people choose to believe whatever they read on social media. Some of it will be true, most of it probably not.

Edited by Nod.E
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16 minutes ago, Fktf said:

 

 

lol Ok, I'll be the one to bite.

 

What is the difference between 'not effective', 'ineffective', and 'do not work'?

 

9 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Haha you beat me to it, I was just about to ask the same thing!

 

The WHO states the following on the effectiveness of masks:

 

image.png.eea5ccc8bf919adb5109aeef37f249ab.png

 

0.7% of particles filtered out would suggest a mask works, but surely this is ineffective.  Even at a level of 60%, it can hardly be described as effective.  It's satisfactory at best. 

 

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Just now, Legend_in_blue said:

 

 

The WHO states the following on the effectiveness of masks:

 

image.png.eea5ccc8bf919adb5109aeef37f249ab.png

 

0.7% of particles filtered out would suggest a mask works, but surely this is ineffective.  Even at a level of 60%, it can hardly be described as effective.  It's satisfactory at best. 

 

That talks about homemade cloth masks, cotton handkerchiefs, and cotton knit sweaters?!? I asked about your claim that masks were ineffective, not clothing out the wardrobe...

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Is there still the chance for China to get investigated and potentially charged over its initial outbreak of this virus (no matter whether it was 'man-made' started from a dog-meat market)?

Edited by Wymsey
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1 minute ago, Wymsey said:

Is there still the chance for China to get investigated and potentially charged over its initial outbreak of this virus (no matter whether it was 'man-made' started from a dog-meat market)?

Yes I’m sure if we tell them that they now owe the rest of the world ten trillion dollars then that will mean we now only owe them five trillion ......

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7 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

 

The WHO states the following on the effectiveness of masks:

 

image.png.eea5ccc8bf919adb5109aeef37f249ab.png

 

0.7% of particles filtered out would suggest a mask works, but surely this is ineffective.  Even at a level of 60%, it can hardly be described as effective.  It's satisfactory at best. 

 

You'll have tell me mate, I've not read up on it. But there's an idea that the severity of symptoms is related to the viral load at infection, so perhaps a 60 percent reduction isn't enough to stop people catching it, but is enough to keep them from developing the worse symptoms and requiring hospital admission :dunno:

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8 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

That talks about homemade cloth masks, cotton handkerchiefs, and cotton knit sweaters?!? I asked about your claim that masks were ineffective, not clothing out the wardrobe...

 

The govt has made it clear that a face covering can be made of a cloth mask, taking a handkerchief secured with elastic bands or even a simple piece of cloth raised to the face from around your neck.

 

If you're going to make mask wearing mandatory, at least offer advice to people on what constitutes an effective mask.  

 

The govt has failed to do that.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Is there still the chance for China to get investigated and potentially charged over its initial outbreak of this virus (no matter whether it was 'man-made' started from a dog-meat market)?

There's no way such a thing could actually be enforced.

 

And China has the square sum of zero responsibility for how another country contains a disease once it's within their borders, and any international lawyer would likely tell you the same.

 

So...no. (Though keep banging the drum.)

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4 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

The govt has made it clear that a face covering can be made of a cloth mask, taking a handkerchief secured with elastic bands or even a simple piece of cloth raised to the face from around your neck.

 

If you're going to make mask wearing mandatory, at least offer advice to people on what constitutes an effective mask.  

 

The govt has failed to do that.

 

 

Here you go:

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#

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6 hours ago, filbertway said:

I've decided to stop worrying about it till February, it's getting me down thinking of the potential consequences of it all. I will be annoyed with the government if they don't support anyone who is forced out of work because of this. They've already lost any potential vote from me in the next election. All I'm hoping is that there's still a life worth living on the other side of this. We're sacrificing a lot in our future to attempt to save an incredibly small amount of lives in the grand scheme of things (that could be saved if they took precautions anyway).

 

Average age of deaths is 82 is it? If you're 75+, try and avoid contact with large amounts of people. Have neighbours, family or friends do your shopping. See family from a distance outside. My grandparents have been doing this Feb. They don't need the government to tell them what to do - they know they're doing it for their own safety.

 

Hopefully we more positive news of a vaccine in the next month or two.

 

Amen. Common sense.

 

One of the unbrainwashed few.

 

Stay sane, brother.

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How does the NHS COVID app actually work? I was idly dismissing the notifications on my phone and I THINK there might have been one that said I'd been in contact with a case, but naturally the app itself tells me nothing at all. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do if it did actually tell me that?

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Just now, Bellend Sebastian said:

How does the NHS COVID app actually work? I was idly dismissing the notifications on my phone and I THINK there might have been one that said I'd been in contact with a case, but naturally the app itself tells me nothing at all. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do if it did actually tell me that?

I think that probably means imminent death.

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1 minute ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

How does the NHS COVID app actually work? I was idly dismissing the notifications on my phone and I THINK there might have been one that said I'd been in contact with a case, but naturally the app itself tells me nothing at all. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do if it did actually tell me that?

I had this happen on friday, google notification but app not saying anything. After a bit of googling it seems that as bluetooth has a range greater than 2 metres, the app / google will ignore contacts with other phones dependent on distance, signal strength, time in proximity. You still get a notification on the phone but the app wont tell you to take action.

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25 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I dedicate an hour each day to battle with conspiracy believers online. As Tim Berners Lee despairingly observed, the advent of the internet has proved disastrous for objectivity and critical thinking. A search engine will return whatever you wish it to. Add to this, the post truth era and rampant populism we have a disenchantment with science and genuine expertise which are regarded as the preserve of 'elites' and a rejection of education which has ironically eluded these Dunning Kruger afflicted dullards who instead substitute the word of online charlatans in place of actual knowledge. Very simply internet connectivity and social media have afforded a voice for those with very little worthwhile to say that are for that reason insignificant in the real world. This is drowning out rational discourse and genuine insight. Stupidity already has the answer. As Carl Sagan opined, knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgement, the manner in which information is coordinated and used.

 

Conspiracy believers are completely emotionally invested in their fraud so unlikely to ever critically question it and knowing nothing the actual subjects that they declare armchair authority over, uncritically lap up and regurgitate baseless claims of Farcebook and twitter about subjects that they are wholly ignorant about. These people are absolutely immune to empirical evidence. It all seems to stem from a massive distrust of evidence based science, authority and MSM. Whilst the online conspiracy theory that they mindlessly parrot is of course unfailingly accurate, honest, truthful, not in the least bit deceptive, manipulative or exploitative is entirely devoid of agenda and has their best interests at heart. Any attempt to explain that although governments and media have and do distort the truth, but does not in turn legitimise any random conspiracy theory of one's arbitrary choice or devising, is greeted by an angry bleating of "sheep" and "shill".

 

I attempt to impress that I am irrelevant - their contention lies not with me but with known science and independently verifiable facts. When asked to substantiate their claims, utterly unable to comprehend that the burden of proof is incumbent upon them, the go to response appears to be...

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Do_your_own_research

 

...unfortunately failing to understand that "research"does involve self proclaimed 'expertise' following squandered evenings in front of baseless You Tube videos, cherry picked click-bait confirmation bias, out of context quote mining, self-referencing pseudoscientific junk conspiracy websites and echo-chamber reinforcement. It's rather like cult worship. In my experience these people are alongside religious extremists/fundamentalists, amongst the most closed minded individuals on the internet. Psychopaths such as Mason and Rev. Jim Jones would have had a field day in the internet age. 

 

Post 9-11, online 'trutherism' and conspiracy theory has become big business -  a lucrative production line. Easy to blame junk peddled by clowns such as Icke and Alex Jones, but this is the sort of lazy thinking and critical impairment that has paved the way for genuinely dangerous charlatans such as Andrew Wakefield and the associated appeals to authority culminating in a genuine threat to society. Claims on a football forum that "scientific evidence proves that face masks don't work" may seem trivial but are a product of this damaging narrative and chronic critical impairment. 

 

Good post.

 

I think I've at times indulged in some of this behaviour, choosing at times to read and share what I want to believe. Which I'm ashamed to admit.

 

I'll admit I know very little about the ongoing situation. It's more a case of observing broader truths (that death numbers aren't that large in the scheme of things and this in my view not justifying wholesale restrictions), and unfortunately getting dragged into particular arguments around case numbers, false positives, dodgy death attribution etc etc.

 

I hope I've stopped short of conspiracy theories, though! 

Edited by Nod.E
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Just now, The Syrup said:

I had this happen on friday, google notification but app not saying anything. After a bit of googling it seems that as bluetooth has a range greater than 2 metres, the app / google will ignore contacts with other phones dependent on distance, signal strength, time in proximity. You still get a notification on the phone but the app wont tell you to take action.

Oh, that makes sense, cheers.

 

The Bluetooth on my phone is now so flaky at any one time there's probably only a fifty percent chance of it working anyway

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Just now, Bellend Sebastian said:

Oh, that makes sense, cheers.

 

The Bluetooth on my phone is now so flaky at any one time there's probably only a fifty percent chance of it working anyway

I guess if it didn't filter out weaker signals or time in proximity then someone walking past your house, or in another car in traffic  could in theory trigger a warning to self isolate for no good reason 

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39 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

How does the NHS COVID app actually work? I was idly dismissing the notifications on my phone and I THINK there might have been one that said I'd been in contact with a case, but naturally the app itself tells me nothing at all. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do if it did actually tell me that?

It doesn’t really .......does anyone know anyone who has  been notified by the app that they may need to isolate ?   I have someone at work whose daughter and her boyfriend were positive but couldn’t enter a code into the app and also my daughters best friend couldn’t enter her code onto the app ...... not sure what the point of it is ......but it’s very shiny ....

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