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2 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Precisely what I was talking about in a previous post. The burden of proof is incumbent upon those making a claim. The onus does not lie with another party to search for an absent or a negative. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept of 'Russell's Teapot'.

 

It tragically may very well be the case that suicide rates have increased or will increase, but even in such a depressing scenario, one would need to demonstrate causality. However, to simply say assert that you 'imagine' this to be the case in the absence of data is nothing more than supposition and therefore completely unsubstantiated. 

Yes, your honour :P

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11 minutes ago, joachim1965 said:

Show me some information apart from factchecker that proves suicide rates are not up.

The mental health comment really does deserve to be questioned.

The ons data is here

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/quarterlysuicidedeathregistrationsinengland/2001to2019registrationsandquarter1jantomartoquarter2aprtojune2020provisionaldata

  • Provisional data show there were 10.3 suicide deaths per 100,000 people in Quarter 1 (Jan to Mar) 2020 in England, equivalent to 1,262 registered deaths; in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2020 there were 6.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people, equivalent to 845 registered deaths.

  • The lower number of deaths registered caused by suicide in Quarter 2 of 2020 should be interpreted with caution; this likely reflects delays to inquests because of the impact of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic on the coroner's service.

  • The rate observed in Quarter 1 of 2020 for males is consistent with those observed in previous years, where the rate has seen an upward trend; the rate for females in Quarter 1 of 2020 continues to be like those seen in recent years.

 

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Find it interesting mental health is only really discussed in terms of the restrictions making it worse. Those on the at risk list, or with family members on that list living with them, will probably be getting hugely worried at the current trend. 

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20 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Agree with most of it but mental health suffering as a result of not being able to socialise normally and adapt so wildly because of the restrictions thanks to the virus still being around can not and should not be underestimated. While FB & Twitter and social media generally is shite, it can't account wholly for MH suffering. You don't have to have been on FB/Twitter to have suffered or MH or have it worsened due to lockdown/COVID. 

I didn't say it 'wholly accounted for MH suffering'...

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32 minutes ago, joachim1965 said:

Show me some information apart from factchecker that proves suicide rates are not up.

The mental health comment really does deserve to be questioned.

I already did, it is about 3 pages back. You must have missed it:

 

https://fullfact.org/health/post-comparing-deaths-august-guess/

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I feel as though I have been attacked for some of my views which I have posted over the last couple of days. A lot of them was posted from frustration, but not for no reason - and I shall not apologise for them what so ever. 

 

I don't know how anyone can deny mental health will suffer drastically with further lockdowns. Human beings are a social species, and human contact is a necessity to function normally, and live a happy and prosperous life. We can look at a study by the Health Foundation, who delved in to the effects lockdowns were having on peoples mental state in the United Kingdom. 

 

"More than two-thirds of adults in the UK (69%) report feeling somewhat or very worried about the effect COVID-19 is having on their life. The most common issues affecting wellbeing are worry about the future (63%), feeling stressed or anxious (56%) and feeling bored (49%)."

 

We can also look at the UCL COVID-19 study, in which they monitored the mental health symptoms of 90,000 people. They came to the conclusion that "levels of anxiety and depression fell in early June as lockdown measures began to lift". 

 

Lack of social interaction, job losses and financial losses and a lack of access to mental health services will inevitably increase mental health problems. I can say from personal experience this whole saga has drastically increased my anxiety and depression in which I have openly discussed in other threads. I also know of many people who's mental health has further deteriorated due to lockdowns. So, there I have provided some statistics, facts, figures for those who claim I am talking out of my arse. Thank you, and goodnight. 

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2 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

I feel as though I have been attacked for some of my views which I have posted over the last couple of days. A lot of them was posted from frustration, but not for no reason - and I shall not apologise for them what so ever. 

 

I don't know how anyone can deny mental health will suffer drastically with further lockdowns. Human beings are a social species, and human contact is a necessity to function normally, and live a happy and prosperous life. We can look at a study by the Health Foundation, who delved in to the effects lockdowns were having on peoples mental state in the United Kingdom. 

 

"More than two-thirds of adults in the UK (69%) report feeling somewhat or very worried about the effect COVID-19 is having on their life. The most common issues affecting wellbeing are worry about the future (63%), feeling stressed or anxious (56%) and feeling bored (49%)."

 

We can also look at the UCL COVID-19 study, in which they monitored the mental health symptoms of 90,000 people. They came to the conclusion that "levels of anxiety and depression fell in early June as lockdown measures began to lift". 

 

Lack of social interaction, job losses and financial losses and a lack of access to mental health services will inevitably increase mental health problems. I can say from personal experience this whole saga has drastically increased my anxiety and depression in which I have openly discussed in other threads. I also know of many people who's mental health has further deteriorated due to lockdowns. So, there I have provided some statistics, facts, figures for those who claim I am talking out of my arse. Thank you, and goodnight. 

This. I know my own mental health, which has often been troublesome for me, has been so up and down due to the lockdown. I know so many people who, to the best of my knowledge, have never suffered mental health issues who have been all over the place since this pandemic came about. You don't need stats and figures to show a very prevelant problem which is sweeping through the population in front of my very eyes. The 'well give me proof' in this issue, is borderline callous, yes the burden of proof should always be on the person making a claim. But this isn't some unsubstantiated quibble, its the very real mental impact a global pandemic is having on a huge amount of people. If you're someone who's lucky enough to not to have been negatively affected by covid then I'm genuinely pleased for you. Just because you haven't suffered doesn't mean a swathe of people haven't and aren't doing. The real impact is, I fear, a way away as a lot of people will really struggle with further restrictions, never mind the mental implications the first one had. No I don't have proof, I have a sympathetic and empathetic view of things and it's common bloody sense the current situation of the world is going to cause a horrendous and long standing mental health issue that just isn't being taken anywhere near seriously enough by a hell of a lot of people. You can think restrictions are necessary but not be blind to the fact of the issues it will cause. 

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14 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

I don't know how anyone can deny mental health will suffer drastically with further lockdowns.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody on this thread has. 

 

20 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I don't need to go find data to show that suicides are up. Of course they are, just common sense that a global pandemic and lockdown would cause a huge spike in mental health issues, which would cause a rise in suicides. Don't need a doctorate to work that one out. 

Although this is possibly the case, if you wish to make the claim then I'm afraid that you do. Otherwise it is nothing more than conjecture. 

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30 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I don't need to go find data to show that suicides are up. Of course they are, just common sense that a global pandemic and lockdown would cause a huge spike in mental health issues, which would cause a rise in suicides. Don't need a doctorate to work that one out. 

Agreed but I think the posts that caused the issue indicated that more people had died from suicide that covid over the last few months ..... this seemed to be quite a strange claim but there is a possibility that if you were looking at July/aug/sept, it might not be far from the case 

 

if you’re looking at it from the outset of the pandemic then it’s indeed nonsense .......

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2 hours ago, Harrydc said:

I feel as though I have been attacked for some of my views which I have posted over the last couple of days. A lot of them was posted from frustration, but not for no reason - and I shall not apologise for them what so ever. 

 

I don't know how anyone can deny mental health will suffer drastically with further lockdowns. Human beings are a social species, and human contact is a necessity to function normally, and live a happy and prosperous life. We can look at a study by the Health Foundation, who delved in to the effects lockdowns were having on peoples mental state in the United Kingdom. 

 

"More than two-thirds of adults in the UK (69%) report feeling somewhat or very worried about the effect COVID-19 is having on their life. The most common issues affecting wellbeing are worry about the future (63%), feeling stressed or anxious (56%) and feeling bored (49%)."

 

We can also look at the UCL COVID-19 study, in which they monitored the mental health symptoms of 90,000 people. They came to the conclusion that "levels of anxiety and depression fell in early June as lockdown measures began to lift". 

 

Lack of social interaction, job losses and financial losses and a lack of access to mental health services will inevitably increase mental health problems. I can say from personal experience this whole saga has drastically increased my anxiety and depression in which I have openly discussed in other threads. I also know of many people who's mental health has further deteriorated due to lockdowns. So, there I have provided some statistics, facts, figures for those who claim I am talking out of my arse. Thank you, and goodnight. 

Where has anyone said this?

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cant be arsed to look through loads on the thread and its probaby already been said but alot of the spikes have been around areas that have Uni's and such

on the mental health thing, think its clear that everyones mental health has took a massive hit during the whole pandemic, i think the media and such with it all doesnt help in some sense

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8 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Basically, it's where people are rammed together.

 

The more rural the county, the lower the cases per 100k.

 

The simplest solution is just stay out of each other's faces.

 

Which isn't difficult.

I wish you were Boris’s speech writer 

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5 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

The 'worst case scenario' was ridiculous and wildly inaccurate. By closing pubs an hour or two earlier and halting gatherings of more than 6 they've prevented that scenario? No chance. It was created purely to scare people into obeying, which is all well and good, but the opposite side is that people are losing the plot over it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've got friends who are on depression tablets over all of this, one was meant to meet us all socially for the first time in over 7 months a couple of weeks ago, but those graphs ensured they stayed away because 'cases are doubling'.

 

Was it? Vallance stated 50000 cases a day by the 15th October. The official test figures, no where near. The REACT figures already put it at 45000 infections a day. The ONS figures to the 1st October put it at 17200 a day, a doubling from the previous week. Another doubling and then a 50% increase puts you at 50000 a day by 15th October. The two best gauges of actual infection rates will probably end up showing us not too far from Valance's 'ridiculous and wildly inaccurate' scenario.

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4 hours ago, Stivo said:

The ons data is here

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/quarterlysuicidedeathregistrationsinengland/2001to2019registrationsandquarter1jantomartoquarter2aprtojune2020provisionaldata

  • Provisional data show there were 10.3 suicide deaths per 100,000 people in Quarter 1 (Jan to Mar) 2020 in England, equivalent to 1,262 registered deaths; in Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2020 there were 6.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people, equivalent to 845 registered deaths.

  • The lower number of deaths registered caused by suicide in Quarter 2 of 2020 should be interpreted with caution; this likely reflects delays to inquests because of the impact of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic on the coroner's service.

  • The rate observed in Quarter 1 of 2020 for males is consistent with those observed in previous years, where the rate has seen an upward trend; the rate for females in Quarter 1 of 2020 continues to be like those seen in recent years.

 

 

We won't know the sad effects in terms of sucide deaths as a result of lockdown for a while. But just remember, when we do know them all that anyone with an agenda wrt those deaths needs to do is display them as a daily per million rate to trivialise the situation. 

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It's just so sad that we all sacrificed a huge amount in the first part of the year in order to give the whole governing machine of the UK time to create a system to deal with Covid going forward but that was wasted by all involved. Now we're at a point where we're heading back towards the situation that forced us into a sacrifice, only in a better position because of a greater understanding of the virus and a cheap, generic steroid. Public policy wise, no leap forward. We are yet to enter the period of the year when we have our annual 'NHS crisis' and yet already parts of the country are getting terribly close to running out of critical care beds, the impending shitshow is likely to be grim. 

 

On the one hand, I can't help but feel there are very few options to keep the health service functioning, on the other hand I'm frightened but the prospect of protecting the health service as I struggle to see how my mind will let me see out the next few months. It'd be great to be German.

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Mental health has a much greater impact than we might think,  because of the impact of dementia.   Estimated 850,000 people in the UK have dementia,  mild or severe,  with another quarter of a million developing it every year.   And whether it's mild or severe,  the universally recommended treatment is to keep busy,  to be sociable,  to get out and meet people,  to have a regular routine, to keep close to family.   Sitting in your room for a year or two isn't part of the prescription. 

 

If lockdown results in the saving of 50,000 lives but results in 50,000 more people who no longer know their own name,  then what have we really gained? 

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1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

Mental health has a much greater impact than we might think,  because of the impact of dementia.   Estimated 850,000 people in the UK have dementia,  mild or severe,  with another quarter of a million developing it every year.   And whether it's mild or severe,  the universally recommended treatment is to keep busy,  to be sociable,  to get out and meet people,  to have a regular routine, to keep close to family.   Sitting in your room for a year or two isn't part of the prescription. 

 

If lockdown results in the saving of 50,000 lives but results in 50,000 more people who no longer know their own name,  then what have we really gained? 

It isn't just about saving lives though, is it?

 

Edit: I assume you mean covid deaths? It is of course all about saving lives, like keeping icu beds free to treat all the non covid stuff that happens 

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3 minutes ago, Fktf said:

It isn't just about saving lives though, is it?

 

Edit: I assume you mean covid deaths? It is of course all about saving lives, like keeping icu beds free to treat all the non covid stuff that happens 

Of course lockdown is all about saving lives.  Lockdown has no other purpose. 

 

Lockdown has plenty of negative results, including millions of jobs lost, millions of operations cancelled, the closure of doctors' surgeries and the reduction of tests for serious illnesses, and of course the bad news for dementia sufferers I mentioned above.  Not to mention the effects on people abroad who can no longer sell us their goods.  All these negative effects have been accepted as a valid price to pay for saving an unknown number of lives.

 

50,000 lives saved is a random guess.  It may be that if we hadn't had lockdown, 250,000 would have died.  It may be that lockdown made no difference at all.  The answer is surely between those extremes.  100,000 deaths (ie. 50,000 lives saved by lockdown) would put us way out at the top of all countries, ahead even of Peru (who had the strictest lockdown of all and the worst death rate, incidentally.)

 

(There's an article in the Sunday Telegraph today that reports from Manaus, Brazil, as one of the worst hit areas of Brazil and saying what a tragedy for the area that Brazil basically carried on as usual.  And at the end it said there have been 2,000 excess deaths, meaning deaths this year are about 107% of the average.  The UK figure is 13% over the year so far.)

 

But either way, the positive effect of lockdown is the loves it has saved, and the negative effects are significant.  It's time the government gave proper consideration to both.

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8 hours ago, Line-X said:

I dedicate an hour each day to battle with conspiracy believers online. As Tim Berners Lee despairingly observed, the advent of the internet has proved disastrous for objectivity and critical thinking. A search engine will return whatever you wish it to. Add to this, the post truth era and rampant populism we have a disenchantment with science and genuine expertise which are regarded as the preserve of 'elites' and a rejection of education which has ironically eluded these Dunning Kruger afflicted dullards who instead substitute the word of online charlatans in place of actual knowledge. Very simply, internet connectivity and social media have afforded a voice for those with very little worthwhile to say that are for that reason insignificant in the real world. This rampant illusory superiority is drowning out rational discourse and genuine insight. Stupidity already has the answer. As Carl Sagan opined, knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgement, the manner in which information is coordinated and used.

 

Conspiracy believers are completely emotionally invested in their fraud so unlikely to ever critically question it and knowing nothing the actual subjects that they declare armchair authority over, uncritically lap up and regurgitate baseless claims of Farcebook and twitter about subjects that they are wholly ignorant about. These people are absolutely immune to empirical evidence. It all seems to stem from a massive distrust of evidence based science, authority and MSM. Whilst the online conspiracy theory that they mindlessly parrot is of course unfailingly accurate, honest, truthful, not in the least bit deceptive, manipulative or exploitative is entirely devoid of agenda and has their best interests at heart. Any attempt to explain that although governments and media have and do distort the truth, but does not in turn legitimise any random conspiracy theory of one's arbitrary choice or devising, is greeted by an angry bleating of "sheep" and "shill".

 

I attempt to impress that I am irrelevant - their contention lies not with me but with known science and independently verifiable facts. When asked to substantiate their claims, utterly unable to comprehend that the burden of proof is incumbent upon them, the go to response appears to be...

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Do_your_own_research

 

...unfortunately failing to understand that "research"does involve self proclaimed overnight 'expertise' following squandered evenings in front of baseless You Tube videos, cherry picked click-bait confirmation bias, out of context quote mining, self-referencing pseudoscientific junk conspiracy websites and echo-chamber reinforcement. It's rather like cult worship. In my experience these people are alongside religious extremists/fundamentalists, amongst the most closed minded individuals on the internet. Psychopaths such as Mason and Rev. Jim Jones would have had a field day in the internet age. 

 

Post 9-11, online 'trutherism' and conspiracy theory has become big business -  a lucrative production line. Easy to blame junk peddled by clowns such as Icke and Alex Jones, but this is the sort of lazy thinking and critical impairment that has paved the way for genuinely dangerous charlatans such as Andrew Wakefield and the associated appeals to authority culminating in a genuine threat to society. Claims on a football forum that "scientific evidence proves that face masks don't work" may seem trivial but are a product of this damaging narrative and chronic critical impairment. 

 

That is all true - unfortunately.

 

However, I still do think that the good outweighs the bad, but perhaps I'm leaning on the deficit model a bit too much here.

 

5 hours ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

This. I know my own mental health, which has often been troublesome for me, has been so up and down due to the lockdown. I know so many people who, to the best of my knowledge, have never suffered mental health issues who have been all over the place since this pandemic came about. You don't need stats and figures to show a very prevelant problem which is sweeping through the population in front of my very eyes. The 'well give me proof' in this issue, is borderline callous, yes the burden of proof should always be on the person making a claim. But this isn't some unsubstantiated quibble, its the very real mental impact a global pandemic is having on a huge amount of people. If you're someone who's lucky enough to not to have been negatively affected by covid then I'm genuinely pleased for you. Just because you haven't suffered doesn't mean a swathe of people haven't and aren't doing. The real impact is, I fear, a way away as a lot of people will really struggle with further restrictions, never mind the mental implications the first one had. No I don't have proof, I have a sympathetic and empathetic view of things and it's common bloody sense the current situation of the world is going to cause a horrendous and long standing mental health issue that just isn't being taken anywhere near seriously enough by a hell of a lot of people. You can think restrictions are necessary but not be blind to the fact of the issues it will cause. 

I can understand it's frustrating being asked to substantiate something one believes to be self-evident.

 

However...please do understand that, as @Line-X eloquently covers above, there is so very much misinformation out there being peddled by the ignorant and the outright malicious. Being able to either substantiate a claim or admit while claiming it that it's purely conjecture based on a hunch is what separates good discourse from well...the bollocks you see across vast swathes of the Internet, really.

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Didn't the government used to advice people to hide under tables incase of a nuclear war?

 

Probably about as helpful as advising us to wear Masks.

 

The whole guidelines, rules and theories are just made up as they go and I think 99% of the public are losing faith & confidence.

 

Its a bit like ghosts to me - I probably won't take it seriously until I experience it.

 

That's probably my ignorance.

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5 hours ago, adejo92 said:

Didn't the government used to advice people to hide under tables incase of a nuclear war?

 

Probably about as helpful as advising us to wear Masks.

 

The whole guidelines, rules and theories are just made up as they go and I think 99% of the public are losing faith & confidence.

 

Its a bit like ghosts to me - I probably won't take it seriously until I experience it.

 

That's probably my ignorance.

tbf think its been proven they help, and wearing a mask isnt that big a deal in all honesty, bill nye did a good video on why masks are important atm(i cant be arsed to find it atm)

masks are here to protect you and to protect everyone else

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