Coronavirus Thread

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I still don't get this. Surely you either die from Covid or you don't? (or maybe it's not that straight forward )

 

I mean surely if you get tested positive for Covid one day and get ran over and killed by a bus the next, it's not counted as a Covid death?

A friend of mine lost his father to a heart attack a month ago. He had tested positive for COVID 19 at least 14 days before the heart attack - he had a negative test and was sent home. The cause of death on the death certificate was COVID 19 (he died within the 28 days of the positive test). The hospitals reasoning is that his heart attack may have been brought on due to the negative impact of having COVID 19 even though at the time of his death, he was not a carrier of the virus.  

[dsr-burnley]

11 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I still don't get this. Surely you either die from Covid or you don't? (or maybe it's not that straight forward )

 

I mean surely if you get tested positive for Covid one day and get ran over and killed by a bus the next, it's not counted as a Covid death?

Yes it is, and some alleged Covid deaths are certainly overstated as a result.  However, there are also some Covid deaths being missed, though probably not many as that is the main emphasis of all death certifications.  Overall it's not a big issue because the overstatement won't be by a huge number - at worst I wouldn't put it above say 10% of "official" covid deaths where the covid was incidental.

 

What we don't know is how many covid deaths were where covid just hurried it along.  Eg. people with terminal cancer who died sooner than they would have, or people who (even though they may not have known it) were going to die of the next thing they caught.  

 

By and large, excess deaths are a good "blunt instrument" approach to counting the effect of covid, and that gives a similar result to the other ways of counting covid deaths.  So broadly speaking, even though it's easy to find errors in the system, the system does give broadly accurate numbers.

[Col city fan]

51 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Yes it is, and some alleged Covid deaths are certainly overstated as a result.  However, there are also some Covid deaths being missed, though probably not many as that is the main emphasis of all death certifications.  Overall it's not a big issue because the overstatement won't be by a huge number - at worst I wouldn't put it above say 10% of "official" covid deaths where the covid was incidental.

 

What we don't know is how many covid deaths were where covid just hurried it along.  Eg. people with terminal cancer who died sooner than they would have, or people who (even though they may not have known it) were going to die of the next thing they caught.  

 

By and large, excess deaths are a good "blunt instrument" approach to counting the effect of covid, and that gives a similar result to the other ways of counting covid deaths.  So broadly speaking, even though it's easy to find errors in the system, the system does give broadly accurate numbers.

[Col city fan]

51 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Yes it is, and some alleged Covid deaths are certainly overstated as a result.  However, there are also some Covid deaths being missed, though probably not many as that is the main emphasis of all death certifications.  Overall it's not a big issue because the overstatement won't be by a huge number - at worst I wouldn't put it above say 10% of "official" covid deaths where the covid was incidental.

 

What we don't know is how many covid deaths were where covid just hurried it along.  Eg. people with terminal cancer who died sooner than they would have, or people who (even though they may not have known it) were going to die of the next thing they caught.  

 

By and large, excess deaths are a good "blunt instrument" approach to counting the effect of covid, and that gives a similar result to the other ways of counting covid deaths.  So broadly speaking, even though it's easy to find errors in the system, the system does give broadly accurate numbers.

Good post and one of the major knock ons from Covid is this sheer number of people not having treatment when they need it. I’m suffering from this personally. 
I’m sure I read that there estimated as many people dying from untreated physical illness as have died from Covid 19.

This is another reason why we must get control of this disease. The back log of people not getting treatment WHEN THEY NEED IT is apparently huge. 
I’m afraid the covid deniers and the rule breakers etc etc won’t have even thought of this...

Of course, until THEY need treatment, then they’ll realise.. maybe

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I still don't get this. Surely you either die from Covid or you don't? (or maybe it's not that straight forward )

 

I mean surely if you get tested positive for Covid one day and get ran over and killed by a bus the next, it's not counted as a Covid death?

 

You may recall Muzzett that I posted ages ago about my friends chat with two people who owned Funeral Parlours ...  he was trying to drum up business from existing clients and thought (tongue in cheek) that surely their 'business' must be booming.  They both said it wasn't and mentioned how the incidence of death due to flu or pneumonia has dropped to near non existent levels this year compared to previous years ...   due to Covid appearing on death certificates. 

 

One also mentioned the young man who died in a car crash but the death certificate said Covid ...   and how this upset his parents who tried to change it.  I know virtually no one believed me but sadly it was true.

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

4 hours ago, Col city fan said:

We now have the highest number of Covid related deaths, per capita, in the world

And are in the top 5 for cumulative deaths in the world

A very very sad set of stats

And you accused me of being negative in here  

[ealingfox]

3 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

You may recall Muzzett that I posted ages ago about my friends chat with two people who owned Funeral Parlours ...  he was trying to drum up business from existing clients and thought (tongue in cheek) that surely their 'business' must be booming.  They both said it wasn't and mentioned how the incidence of death due to flu or pneumonia has dropped to near non existent levels this year compared to previous years ...   due to Covid appearing on death certificates. 

 

One also mentioned the young man who died in a car crash but the death certificate said Covid ...   and how this upset his parents who tried to change it.  I know virtually no one believed me but sadly it was true.

 

 

I have to apologise, but my partner is a doctor and I believe her when she says this stuff categorically does not happen.

 

Who do you think is leveraging doctors to lie, breaching their code of ethics and risking being struck off? It's the same thing as sabotaging a murder investigation.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Feeling 400K vaccinations today 

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

 

I have to apologise, but my partner is a doctor and I believe her when she says this stuff categorically does not happen.

 

Who do you think is leveraging doctors to lie, breaching their code of ethics and risking being struck off? It's the same thing as sabotaging a murder investigation.

 

I don't think anyone is lying I think if someone has tested positive for Covid in the last how ever many days it is, that goes down as the cause of death ...  

[ealingfox]

39 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

I don't think anyone is lying I think if someone has tested positive for Covid in the last how ever many days it is, that goes down as the cause of death ...  

 

If someone is mangled in a car crash and the doctor writes on their death certificate that the cause of death was Covid-19, that would be a lie. It wouldn't happen.

Edited 19 January 2021 by ealingfox

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Zoe App reckons new infection rates have almost halved from their peak. Schools closing, vaccinations and staying in are really eating into the infection numbers now. 

[fuchsntf]

18 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

If someone is mangled in a car crash and the doctor writes on their death certificate that the caus of death was Covid-19, that would be a lie. It wouldn't happen.

Not if he/she was coughing so badly or so weak because of the virus, it causes the accident.....Autopsy discovered connection...

always mitigating cirumstances...!!

[Col city fan]

17 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Zoe App reckons new infection rates have almost halved from their peak. Schools closing, vaccinations and staying in are really eating into the infection numbers now. 

It really isn’t rocket science is it. 
Personally I think shutting schools will have made a huge difference. The impact of vaccinations will occur over a longer period.

[Countryfox]

30 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

If someone is mangled in a car crash and the doctor writes on their death certificate that the cause of death was Covid-19, that would be a lie. It wouldn't happen.

 

Thats fair enough and the next time I speak to him I will mention that ...  but, out of interest, would it still go down as a covid death on the governments statistics (as opposed to the death certificate)  ? ...  

[ealingfox]

9 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Thats fair enough and the next time I speak to him I will mention that ...  but, out of interest, would it still go down as a covid death on the governments statistics (as opposed to the death certificate)  ? ...  

 

It would go down as a death within 28 days of a positive Covid test, which would be correct. That is not the same as the doctor recording the cause of death as Covid-19 despite knowing that to be untrue. The issue here is people feeling that the uncritical use of deaths within 28 days of a positive test as a ready indicator of the number of deaths caused by the pandemic is flawed, and I have some sympathy with that.

 

My guess would be that deaths and positive Covid tests are both recorded as a matter of public record, but an individual's cause of death is not. So deaths within 28 days of a positive test is the best approximator readily available using public information. 

[RobHawk]

My best mates dad recently passed away. He suffered from dementia and was rushed to hospital and died a few hours later. His covid test was negitive so was diagnosed with pneumonia which is a common killer in dementia sufferers. 

 

Even though the covid test was negitive, the death certificate stated the cause of death was covid 19. My mate has been given no reason or explanation why this was the case and plans to fight it.

 

Now they are both conditions that effect the lungs but this is something that's happened (I've seen the death certificate) and appears to be completely wrong from the drs in question

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

My best mates dad recently passed away. He suffered from dementia and was rushed to hospital and died a few hours later. His covid test was negitive so was diagnosed with pneumonia which is a common killer in dementia sufferers. 

 

Even though the covid test was negitive, the death certificate stated the cause of death was covid 19. My mate has been given no reason or explanation why this was the case and plans to fight it.

 

Now they are both conditions that effect the lungs but this is something that's happened (I've seen the death certificate) and appears to be completely wrong from the drs in question

No one seems to be dying of flu or pneumonia these days, the two things which usually push hundreds of the thousands of ill people over the edge every year. I suspect things are setup to report Covid so covid reports is what they get.  This is why only excess deaths vs the 5 year average are really a useful measure, along with numbers in hospital etc.

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, Col city fan said:

We now have the highest number of Covid related deaths, per capita, in the world

And are in the top 5 for cumulative deaths in the world

A very very sad set of stats

In the current week, not overall.

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

My best mates dad recently passed away. He suffered from dementia and was rushed to hospital and died a few hours later. His covid test was negitive so was diagnosed with pneumonia which is a common killer in dementia sufferers. 

 

Even though the covid test was negitive, the death certificate stated the cause of death was covid 19. My mate has been given no reason or explanation why this was the case and plans to fight it.

 

Now they are both conditions that effect the lungs but this is something that's happened (I've seen the death certificate) and appears to be completely wrong from the drs in question

 

Purely out of curiosity, why? Does it really matter?

[reynard]

1 hour ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Feeling 400K vaccinations today 

God your arm must be sore

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

I still don't get this. Surely you either die from Covid or you don't? (or maybe it's not that straight forward )

 

I mean surely if you get tested positive for Covid one day and get ran over and killed by a bus the next, it's not counted as a Covid death?

It absolutely is, although obviously that would be a tiny tiny number.  What this confuses is those who would have died of pneumonia etc in that period anyway, but it happened to be Covid that pushed them over the edge.

[reynard]

21 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Just don’t think people who live in glass houses should throw stones

If you’ve, as much as you can, kept yourself safe, kept others safe, stuck at least mainly within the rules etc etc then you’ve got an argument to make. If you haven’t, you’ve not helped yourself or others and are equally as culpable as the government, I’d argue more so personally. What this pandemic has shown me are a few things. That some people are more daft and selfish than I thought they were, that people don’t take self responsibility anywhere near as seriously as they should and that they blame game’ is alive and well in the UK

There are some who have been amazing throughout.. the frontline NHS, the care workers, that old geezer who did all those laps on his Zimmer frame. There have unfortunately also been those who haven’t changed their behaviour and mindsets at all. That’ll also be something I’ll not forget going forward 

The vast majority of people have been obeying the rules. Whilst there are undoubtedly some idiots who haven't these are the ones the media will pick up. Depsite your impeccable behaviour I'm afraid Col city fan stays inside doesn't make great reading and isn't newsworthy.

The Government have serious questions to answer and I hope these will be addressed when this is over in a proper reviews. Right now though they finally seem to be getting their act together and the sheer hard work of those administering the vaccines is to be applauded.

[ealingfox]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It absolutely is, although obviously that would be a tiny tiny number.  What this confuses is those who would have died of pneumonia etc in that period anyway, but it happened to be Covid that pushed them over the edge.

 

Someone hit by a bus would not be recorded as a Covid death. That would be ludicrous.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, reynard said:

The vast majority of people have been obeying the rules. Whilst there are undoubtedly some idiots who haven't these are the ones the media will pick up. Depsite your impeccable behaviour I'm afraid Col city fan stays inside doesn't make great reading and isn't newsworthy.

The Government have serious questions to answer and I hope these will be addressed when this is over in a proper reviews. Right now though they finally seem to be getting their act together and the sheer hard work of those administering the vaccines is to be applauded.

The people have done everything they have been asked to do, and any suggestion that a lack of following the rules had been at fault is utter nonsense.  The government are fully 100% accountable and should be held to that.  We will judge them once this is over, and see how we performed.  So far it looks like a pretty poor outcome overall.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

 

Someone hit by a bus would not be recorded as a Covid death. That would be ludicrous.

They literally take a list of deaths, and compare that to the list of positive tests, and if they match that is counted.  They don't have time or ability to start delving into whether Covid was the primary cause or not.