Essay on cancel culture

[Guest Bert Fill]

2 hours ago, Vacamion said:

Beyond acknowledging that the debate is poisonous, I would suggest that this thread is probably not going going to resolve the underlying arguments.

Well that’s not a very optimistic outlook I must say!

If a thread on a football fan forum isn’t going to sort it out, how will it ever get sorted??

[Bellend Sebastian]

I think for a lot of the folk that get stuck in on these debates it's less about the issue itself, more about the cancellation and the power they feel getting someone cancelled

[Captain...]

19 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I think for a lot of the folk that get stuck in on these debates it's less about the issue itself, more about the cancellation and the power they feel getting someone cancelled

"So you've been publicly shamed" by Jon Ronson covers some elements of this behaviour but mainly on the aftemath of being "cancelled" as much as the causes.

 

Generally people piling in on the "victim" genuinely believe they are in the right, and to be fair calling out a racist/bigot is the right thing to do. The problem isn't being called out or even the nature of the calling out, normally it is people piling in with jokes and memes rather than just being aggressive, it is the volume of "flaming" that a victim gets that is damaging. You think reposting one meme doesn't hurt, but thousands of reposts and @ mentions etc and it snowballs into something quite dangerous. I think there is a belief that people aim to get other people cancelled, I would say that is the tiny minority, most people just pile in because of herd mentality and a belief they are right to call someone out.

[doverfox]

5 hours ago, James. said:

What are the main arguments against requiring people to provide a form of identification (passport, driving licence, etc) in order to open a social media account?

 

The lack of accountability is surely one of the main drivers for the toxicity of much of what is posted on social media platforms.

 

 

As long as these arent required to vote?  

[ClaphamFox]

2 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I think for a lot of the folk that get stuck in on these debates it's less about the issue itself, more about the cancellation and the power they feel getting someone cancelled

Yes. And also the feeling of safety that being on this side of the equation - the cancellers rather than the cancelled - gives them. As Adichie says, it is not about goodness but rather the appearance of goodness. It's about being an accepted member of a club and the security that brings. All you have to do is sign up and spout the mantra, and join in the vociferous denunciations of those who don't, and you're in. In reality, it just elevates mob thinking into a kind of puritanical performance art. 

[Dr The Singh]

What is cancel culture, for me it's like me purchasing a subscription and before the free trial is over, I cancel it?

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57517781

 

Interesting article, showing the two sides and why cancel culture exists.

[leicsmac]

And, perhaps there might be another explanation for it all too: our technology has evolved faster than our brains, and we simply haven't evolved enough to get along universally as a species.

 

As we must in the future.

[Smudge]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

And, perhaps there might be another explanation for it all too: our technology has evolved faster than our brains, and we simply haven't evolved enough to get along universally as a species.

 

As we must in the future.

Each generation, as far as I have experienced, cancels some of previous generational concerns. 

Technology might speed up prejudices but it doesn't quell them 

 

 

 

Edited 18 June 2021 by Smudge

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, Smudge said:

Each generation, as far as I have experienced, cancels some of previous generational concerns. 

Technology might speed up prejudices but it doesn't quell them 

 

 

 

It certainly doesn't, right.

 

Might be nice for some of the parts of our brains to catch up with what we do with the other parts, though. (If, indeed, the idea of tribalism is ingrained and I'm most certainly unsure of that.)

[TrickyTrev Benjamin]

Cancel America problem solved 
 

America has turned into one giant South Park episode. Both trump and Biden are beyond embarrassing. 
 

 

[gerblod]

On 17/06/2021 at 11:42, leicsmac said:

Previous generations feeling that newer ones are somehow a disappointment to them has been a thing since antiquity; I guess this is as good a reason as any for the current ones.

Antiquity changed about the time writing became universal and democratised. It became both a glorious form of communicating ideas and soon after a tool of repression.

Same for radio, then television and the great leap forward into the void of enabling every individual access to stating their opinion. 

Parents and adults decrying youth has been as prevalent as parents and adults praising youth. But when your youth can stalk, troll, influence and generally diminish each other at a safe distance, without the mitigating effects of learning how to behave in real, not virtual, society then this kind of poison will spread.

This is no longer traditional society. Old rules don't count for much in a virtual world.

[Lionator]

Emotional intelligence is a good one I think, my generation really, really struggle to put themselves in other peoples shoes and only see the world from their own view. I live with two people, one in their early 20's and one in their mid 30's, and the one in their mid 30's has a pretty strong interest in the environment, good food sources, all that shabang, and where they would (sometimes irritatingly) comment on a lot of things you'd cook. The early 20 something complained to me that their actions were 'triggering their eating disorder', without ever bringing it up with the other person. That somehow the other person would know not to talk about that persons eating disorder triggers. So I sat the early 20 something down and spoke about seeing things from the other person's perspective, that their actions are not designed to hurt them but clearly an obsession on the other persons part and basically to just zone out when they talk about food. 

 

Of course, this generation is a product of those who raised them (sorry any parents on here). As someone who was over parented, I feel like this is a massive contributing factor and perhaps a 90/00's drive on what makes a good parent is an issue? And then of course the education system. Too much English and Maths and working towards exams and not enough critical thinking therefore emotional intelligence is lacking.   

 

I'll also just add to another post that the baby boomer generation certainly has it's own issues. My 'patriot' uncle is supporting anyone but England in this Euro's because of the taking this knee issue, such a patriot that a little bit of anti-racism puts him off his team. That's what you called 'triggered'. Pathetic. This is a common theme, the real snowflakes are comfortably between the ages of 50 and 75.

[leicsmac]

36 minutes ago, gerblod said:

Antiquity changed about the time writing became universal and democratised. It became both a glorious form of communicating ideas and soon after a tool of repression.

Same for radio, then television and the great leap forward into the void of enabling every individual access to stating their opinion. 

Parents and adults decrying youth has been as prevalent as parents and adults praising youth. But when your youth can stalk, troll, influence and generally diminish each other at a safe distance, without the mitigating effects of learning how to behave in real, not virtual, society then this kind of poison will spread.

This is no longer traditional society. Old rules don't count for much in a virtual world.

Yeah, agreed there. Plays into the earlier discussion about technology evolving much, much faster than the human psyche has.

[foxile5]

There are 9 years between the two authors here. People making this into a 'grr the young uns' argument are deftly missing the point. 

 

They're both from the same generation. This is about the wanky hoardes on twitter braying to show some moral superiority. And she's bang on. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

There are 9 years between the two authors here. People making this into a 'grr the young uns' argument are deftly missing the point. 

 

They're both from the same generation. This is about the wanky hoardes on twitter braying to show some moral superiority. And she's bang on. 

The point is not that she's wrong about those "wanky hordes", but wrong about it being somehow a new social phenomenon among people as opposed to technology merely acting as a force multiplier for an issue that has been there for a very long time.

[foxile5]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The point is not that she's wrong about those "wanky hordes", but wrong about it being somehow a new social phenomenon among people as opposed to technology merely acting as a force multiplier for an issue that has been there for a very long time.

Correct. But people have turned this into a discussion about generational disagreement, thereby lending credence to cancel culture when actually it's nothing to do with age. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Correct. But people have turned this into a discussion about generational disagreement, thereby lending credence to cancel culture when actually it's nothing to do with age. 

 

 

That's fair to say.

 

Cancel culture has nothing to do with age, nor is it a new phenomenon.

[yorkie1999]

Blame the sony walkman. Ever since this harmless device was invented, people have developed a progressively introverted outlook? on life which has consequently led to a generation that are so into themselves that they do not know how to show respect and humility to others. People are educated up to the eyeballs, but lack the basics of human education, which is to show respect and be a morally good person. The solution, in my humble opinion, is to give back the power of discipline to teachers in schools, teach the 10 commandments and introduce national service.  Know thy fvckin place.

Edited 19 June 2021 by yorkie1999

[gerblod]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, agreed there. Plays into the earlier discussion about technology evolving much, much faster than the human psyche has.

I use "psyche" as a catch-all word to denote something I'm still very vague about. For me it denotes the emotional being of an individual and their response to the world surrounding them. 

I have thought long about this disconnect between being a human, with an evolution which adapted well enough to avoid extinction over x million years, in a (mostly) slowly changing environment - and the rapid development, over three hundred years, of the technology which has been force fed to all but the most remote people.

I'm not convinced by any of it (except perhaps medicine) and I've lost the delusion I had as a youth that technology meant progress. I think we're living in a world that's forcing us to adapt to it, rather than vice-versa.

I believe this environment is damaging and dangerous, because it's turned us into quasi-automatons, and in so doing has damaged our psyches.

I think Philip Pullman was hinting at this in his trilogy.

 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, gerblod said:

I use "psyche" as a catch-all word to denote something I'm still very vague about. For me it denotes the emotional being of an individual and their response to the world surrounding them. 

I have thought long about this disconnect between being a human, with an evolution which adapted well enough to avoid extinction over x million years, in a (mostly) slowly changing environment - and the rapid development, over three hundred years, of the technology which has been force fed to all but the most remote people.

I'm not convinced by any of it (except perhaps medicine) and I've lost the delusion I had as a youth that technology meant progress. I think we're living in a world that's forcing us to adapt to it, rather than vice-versa.

I believe this environment is damaging and dangerous, because it's turned us into quasi-automatons, and in so doing has damaged our psyches.

I think Philip Pullman was hinting at this in his trilogy.

 

It's a bloody interesting debate and probably belongs in another thread tbh.

 

But to give my two pennyworth on this briefly: that humans haven't gone extinct yet is down to luck and ingenuity in times of crisis as our own evolutionary response, and that includes using what we make to adapt our environment. Technology still means progress for me simply because without it, that timeline to human extinction will be much shorter than it might be with it.

 

I certainly share the worries regarding the way things are playing out expressed here, but I'm reminded of a quote: "I feel I must remind you that it is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable"

[Carl the Llama]

Honestly reading that description of young people out of context I'd have assumed she was talking about my mum.  These discourse issues are not new, it's something we've very much inherited from our elders and which has had a light shone on it by the internet age.  

[Fightforever]

The way I see it people are just bored these days. Everyone goes work then just comes home to either watch TV or scroll social media. A bored population is how you breed extremism. This will only get worse as people get more and more lonely. Twitter is where all these angry people congregate and cancel culture is a byproduct of that.

[Fightforever]

On 17/06/2021 at 09:45, ClaphamFox said:

The Nigerian author Chimamanda Adichie has published an essay on cancel culture that has inevitably caused something of a stir online. She raises some interesting points. The essay is in three parts, the third of which reads:

"In certain young people today like these two from my writing workshop, I notice what I find increasingly troubling: a cold-blooded grasping, a hunger to take and take and take, but never give; a massive sense of entitlement; an inability to show gratitude; an ease with dishonesty and pretension and selfishness that is couched in the language of self-care; an expectation always to be helped and rewarded no matter whether deserving or not; language that is slick and sleek but with little emotional intelligence; an astonishing level of self-absorption; an unrealistic expectation of puritanism from others; an over-inflated sense of ability, or of talent where there is any at all; an inability to apologize, truly and fully, without justifications; a passionate performance of virtue that is well executed in the public space of Twitter but not in the intimate space of friendship.

"I find it obscene.

"There are many social-media-savvy people who are choking on sanctimony and lacking in compassion, who can fluidly pontificate on Twitter about kindness but are unable to actually show kindness. People whose social media lives are case studies in emotional aridity. People for whom friendship, and its expectations of loyalty and compassion and support, no longer matter. People who claim to love literature – the messy stories of our humanity – but are also monomaniacally obsessed with whatever is the prevailing ideological orthodoxy. People who demand that you denounce your friends for flimsy reasons in order to remain a member of the chosen puritan class.

"People who ask you to ‘educate’ yourself while not having actually read any books themselves, while not being able to intelligently defend their own ideological positions, because by ‘educate,’ they actually mean ‘parrot what I say, flatten all nuance, wish away complexity.’

"People who do not recognize that what they call a sophisticated take is really a simplistic mix of abstraction and orthodoxy – sophistication in this case being a showing-off of how au fait they are on the current version of ideological orthodoxy.

"People who wield the words ‘violence’ and ‘weaponize’ like tarnished pitchforks. People who depend on obfuscation, who have no compassion for anybody genuinely curious or confused. Ask them a question and you are told that the answer is to repeat a mantra. Ask again for clarity and be accused of violence. (How ironic, speaking of violence, that it is one of these two who encouraged Twitter followers to pick up machetes and attack me.)

"And so we have a generation of young people on social media so terrified of having the wrong opinions that they have robbed themselves of the opportunity to think and to learn and to grow.

"I have spoken to young people who tell me they are terrified to tweet anything, that they read and re-read their tweets because they fear they will be attacked by their own. The assumption of good faith is dead. What matters is not goodness but the appearance of goodness. We are no longer human beings. We are now angels jostling to out-angel one another. God help us. It is obscene."

 

Full article

This is very accurate not just young people though this is most people these days. I think its because there is no shared moral structure between people so no one has any interest in chasing anything apart from your own desires. Likes and follows are a personification of this culture.

[Wolfox]

Interesting discussion

 

You can be a lot braver behind a keyboard of course…. Consequently people’s  normal politeness deserts them…. Also so much in communication is missed when reading flat text

 

However, we’ve generally been moulded by a certain age to hold certain values…. My kids (in the main) have similar views to me on many topics…. They simply have a rather clunky way of expressing them and can be quite forthright…. The need to be outraged!  I was certainly a lot more of a zealot when younger but didn’t have access to a phone keyboard…

 

The key point in this is that people spend very little time listening as we are all so keen to share, protest and emote….
 

I find myself trotting the same time honoured responses on a number of topics…. Brexit, the Tories and whether Wellens was a misunderstood genius…. A lot of it hasn’t really been thought through and is simply a muscle memory reaction to an input and I don’t have to think about how to respond…

 

I think we’d all be better to served to stop, think and listen…. Not challenge others views but our own more regularly