Covid passports

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

And neither has any government or scientist claimed that having the jab stops you from getting it or passing it on. That is not an opinion that is a fact. Nowhere has it ever been claimed that any vaccine prevents infection from Covid or prevents you passing it on. If it did then it could actually claim to be a vaccine ( which it clearly is not ) Please tell me one instance where the government or any scientist has said it will prevent it? you won't find it anywhere because if you had the jab and then contracted it you could sue the government for misinterpretation.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v1

 

"....Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant."

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

 

"...Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection."

 

So yes, more than one scientific group have said that vaccinations do help stop you from either transmitting or contracting it.

 

Unless you're talking about removing the risk entirely, which would be both a little unrealistic and not entirely relevant to the original point being made which inferred that the vaccine made no difference at all.

 

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Bert said:

So why even bother commenting at all then?

One could reasonably ask that question of a sizeable number of posts. 

 

My point was I didn't think the thread was likely to end well. Happy now? 

[HighPeakFox]

17 hours ago, Harrydc said:

I'm not getting involved 

Bert will not be impressed. 

[Captain...]

I have no issue in principle to a covid passport, vaccination passports are not new concepts. There has been a requirement around yellow fever vaccines in certain countries for a long time now. 

 

Should it be applied to pubs and venues? again not against it in principal, but it does seem a bit pointless when there are no other restrictions around and the waning effect of the vaccine. If it had been implemented as part of the easing then it would have made a lot more sense but doing it now when we've all been mixing for months is pointless. The government have never seemed to have the belief they can beat this disease just manage the numbers with as little collateral as possible.

[FoxesDeb]

21 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

And neither has any government or scientist claimed that having the jab stops you from getting it or passing it on. That is not an opinion that is a fact. Nowhere has it ever been claimed that any vaccine prevents infection from Covid or prevents you passing it on. If it did then it could actually claim to be a vaccine ( which it clearly is not ) Please tell me one instance where the government or any scientist has said it will prevent it? you won't find it anywhere because if you had the jab and then contracted it you could sue the government for misinterpretation.

 

Many vaccines do not prevent infection completely, they merely reduce the risk, and the covid vaccine is no different from others in this regard. 

 

 

[jgtuk]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Many vaccines do not prevent infection completely, they merely reduce the risk, and the covid vaccine is no different from others in this regard. 

 

 

This is the issue with some people though, they refuse to aknowledge that it's not on or off but that there are other degrees of success the effects of mass vaccination will have, such as reducing the risk of illness to everybody but particularly those who might be vulnerable, plus lower transmissibility of the virus.

[FoxesDeb]

24 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

This is the issue with some people though, they refuse to aknowledge that it's not on or off but that there are other degrees of success the effects of mass vaccination will have, such as reducing the risk of illness to everybody but particularly those who might be vulnerable, plus lower transmissibility of the virus.

I agree. It would also be a fabulous irony if the very same people who were telling me, as a Covid vulnerable person, that I should stay at home so that lockdown could be lifted and therefore they could enjoy their freedom 'because it's not fair for the majority to be restricted for the sake of the minority',  now find those freedoms restricted themselves. 

[Bert]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

One could reasonably ask that question of a sizeable number of posts. 

 

My point was I didn't think the thread was likely to end well. Happy now? 

Well why not just say that instead of digging out the OP.

[Legend_in_blue]

The cat is out amongst the pigeons I see. 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v1

 

"....Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant."

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

 

"...Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection."

 

So yes, more than one scientific group have said that vaccinations do help stop you from either transmitting or contracting it.

 

Unless you're talking about removing the risk entirely, which would be both a little unrealistic and not entirely relevant to the original point being made which inferred that the vaccine made no difference at all.

 

It reduces the risk to the person who has had the vaccine in terms of severity it does not reduce the risk of passing it on to others . Therefore jabbed or not jabbed it makes no difference to passing it on at a venue like a football match. As I said what then is the point of having to show some poof of having the vaccine to get into venues when even those who have had the vaccine can still get it themselves and can still pass it on?

[FoxesDeb]

3 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

It reduces the risk to the person who has had the vaccine in terms of severity it does not reduce the risk of passing it on to others . Therefore jabbed or not jabbed it makes no difference to passing it on at a venue like a football match. As I said what then is the point of having to show some poof of having the vaccine to get into venues when even those who have had the vaccine can still get it themselves and can still pass it on?

What you have quoted literally disagrees with what you have said 

 

"....Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant."

 

 

 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

What you have quoted literally disagrees with what you have said 

 

"....Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant."

 

 

 

It would if I believed that statement in the first place. But that does not alter the fact that jabbed or not jabbed you can still pass it on.

[Legend_in_blue]

This thread requires a data input:

 

 

We're nowhere near the doomsday scenarios without restrictions imposed.  The argument for proof of vaccine status is wafer thin.  

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

It would if I believed that statement in the first place. But that does not alter the fact that jabbed or not jabbed you can still pass it on.

Which should be the end of the argument for the need for vaccine passports because they're pointless.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

It would if I believed that statement in the first place. But that does not alter the fact that jabbed or not jabbed you can still pass it on.

It's all about reducing risk, we can't 100% protect people from covid, but if you have a room full of vaccinated people and a room full of unvaccinated people the room full of unvaccinated are more likely to be hospitalised/die of covid and that is the primary objective here. First prevent deaths, second prevent hospitalisation, third prevent cases. The vaccine and therefore covid passports will do that. You can argue to what degree and is it worth the restriction on civil liberties, but all statistical evidence supports vaccines saving lives. Look at cases vs deaths after the vaccine roll out. Cases are really quite high at the moment, but hospitalisation and deaths are proportionally much lower than the pre vaccine levels.

 

Should hospitalisations start to increase to unmanageable levels, then I would prefer proper covid passports and checks to football behind closed doors and pubs and bars shutting.

[HighPeakFox]

2 hours ago, Bert said:

Well why not just say that instead of digging out the OP.

Rather than answer you fully here, I'll concede it was a bad idea.

[hejammy]

2 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

It would if I believed that statement in the first place. But that does not alter the fact that jabbed or not jabbed you can still pass it on.

As in what don't you get? It's about likely hood. Likely hood of a vaccinated person getting it, longevity of infectious period, how severe it hits someone. Think of it this way perhaps, I do not want to be the one who is vaccinated, then go somewhere unknowingly being infectious due to lack of symptoms and then passing it onto someone who is not vaccinated (bigger risk of hospitalisation and death) - its actually to protect both sides! 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

It's all about reducing risk, we can't 100% protect people from covid, but if you have a room full of vaccinated people and a room full of unvaccinated people the room full of unvaccinated are more likely to be hospitalised/die of covid and that is the primary objective here. First prevent deaths, second prevent hospitalisation, third prevent cases. The vaccine and therefore covid passports will do that. You can argue to what degree and is it worth the restriction on civil liberties, but all statistical evidence supports vaccines saving lives. Look at cases vs deaths after the vaccine roll out. Cases are really quite high at the moment, but hospitalisation and deaths are proportionally much lower than the pre vaccine levels.

 

Should hospitalisations start to increase to unmanageable levels, then I would prefer proper covid passports and checks to football behind closed doors and pubs and bars shutting.

People who have had the jab can pass it on to other people who have had the jab and still die of it so what is the point? Excluding people who have not had the jab does not alter that. If it's all about levels of risk them we should be saying no one allowed in over the age of 60 or with underlying health problems regardless of whether they have had the jab or not. It's a very dangerous road we are heading for if it is implemented.

Edited 2 November 2021 by PAPA LAZAROU

[SpacedX]

7 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

People who have had the jab can pass it on to other people who have had the jab and still die of it so what is the point? Excluding people who have not had the jab does not alter that. If it's all about levels of risk them we should be saying no one allowed in over the age of 60 or with underlying health problems regardless of whether they have had the jab or not. It's a very dangerous road we are heading for if it is implemented.

That's 'Mad'.

 

Medical Insurance "is what allows people to be ill at ease". 

[st albans fox]

4 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

This thread requires a data input:

 

 

We're nowhere near the doomsday scenarios without restrictions imposed.  The argument for proof of vaccine status is wafer thin.  

When is a case not a case ?

 

if a positive case isn’t registered or measured by a test, is it still a case ??

[Sly]

The issue with the entire thing was it could be fudged, so it fell apart pretty quickly.

 

The hopes originally that the vaccine would stop transmission, was wiped out by delta. 
 

It’s slowed the tide, however now the storm is increasing again. More and more people are catching COVID, some for the 2nd time, or still feeling the impacts of long covid. 
 

I was in favour of lockdowns, masks, vaccinations etc, in the hope we’d eventually be able to regain some form of normality. Passports or not, it’s down to an individuals choice on if they want to enter a pub, club, event etc. We didn’t do it right in the first place, so the horse has bolted on the opportunity to do it correctly. 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

It would if I believed that statement in the first place. But that does not alter the fact that jabbed or not jabbed you can still pass it on.

...and so we arrive at the point at last, that the entire scientific method in this particular case is untrustworthy. And yes,  that *is* what is being heavily inferred here. 

 

Well, it's a free country, but personally I'd trust that method about understanding the natural world over any other source because it's both wrong less and self correcting. It's sad that so many people seem not to trust it for their own purposes these days.

[Suzie the Fox]

If it makes for everything to go back to normal faster and it can be policed, i am not again it. 

[yorkie1999]

55 minutes ago, Suzie the Fox said:

If it makes for everything to go back to normal faster and it can be policed, i am not again it. 

It can’t be policed because the very people doing the policing are the people who make money from people entering their venue, apart from something like football where you pay up front and, as we’ve seen, it’s not feasible to check everyone entering a large gathering of 30000 people.

 Plus, anything and everything the government has done has been a complete fvck up, so anything they come up with, think of the opposite and it’ll be the right thing.

Edited 3 November 2021 by yorkie1999

[CosbehFox]

6 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

It can’t be policed because the very people doing the policing are the people who make money from people entering their venue, apart from something like football where you pay up front and, as we’ve seen, it’s not feasible to check everyone entering a large gathering of 30000 people.

 Plus, anything and everything the government has done has been a complete fvck up, so anything they come up with, think of the opposite and it’ll be the right thing.

It’s possible at football grounds and indoor events if it’s a pre qualification to buying a ticket. Ie the check doesn’t happen at the stadium but actually before. EDIT: My bad just re-read your post 
 

It’s doomed to fail though because it puts a huge emphasis on smaller / medium sized businesses to do the checking etc. Economic suicide for them. Public transport as well is hard to track 
 

 

Edited 3 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox