The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[Lionator]

Why do Brits still believe they hold the moral authority over N. Ireland? Why do Brits feel that they have the best interests of N. Ireland at heart? Why do we completely ignore the historical oppression of Irish people? 

[Tommy Fresh]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

He’s not currently an MP so it won’t be him. I’d put my money on Yvette Cooper most likely. 

Not sure about how he'd go about replacing a local MP up there but he'd get in anywhere up that way wouldn't he if he wanted to.

[Lionator]

Just now, Tommy Fresh said:

Not sure about how he'd go about replacing a local MP up there but he'd get in anywhere up that way wouldn't he if he wanted to.

Yeah true. I think he’s said publicly he has no interest in it though, he sees Westminster as toxic and is very much enjoying being able to implement real social change at a local level. It’s a shame as I think he’d be good. 

[Jon the Hat]

10 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Why do Brits still believe they hold the moral authority over N. Ireland? Why do Brits feel that they have the best interests of N. Ireland at heart? Why do we completely ignore the historical oppression of Irish people? 

I think you are confusing Brits with the people of northern Ireland 

[Nalis]

11 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Why do Brits still believe they hold the moral authority over N. Ireland? Why do Brits feel that they have the best interests of N. Ireland at heart? Why do we completely ignore the historical oppression of Irish people? 

Northern Ireland is very very complicated and an impossible scenario.

 

Most people in England I've spoken to about it actually think it makes sense that there's a united Ireland. While their sentiments are in the right place, if there was a united Ireland tomorrow we would essentially have the Troubles again as loyalists wouldn't stand for it.

Edited 8 May 2022 by Nalis

[Nalis]

One understated positive from the MLA elections is the rise of the Alliance Party as the clear third biggest party rather than historically being the 5th largest.

 

The group who are steer away from picking a unionism / nationalism flag are growing.

Edited 8 May 2022 by Nalis

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, Nalis said:

One understated positive from the MLA elections is the rise of the Alliance Party as the clear third biggest party rather than historically being the 5th largest.

 

The group who are steer away from picking a unionism / nationalism flag are growing.

Because Northern Ireland at the very least should be allowed to govern itself without the looming threat of Westminster, or the option of essentially passing over leadership to Westminster. Personally, having read lots of balanced sources, I don’t see how there shouldn’t be a United ireland but for a British politician to say that, that would make you unelectable. Which is the main point of my last post. 

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

Because Northern Ireland at the very least should be allowed to govern itself without the looming threat of Westminster, or the option of essentially passing over leadership to Westminster. Personally, having read lots of balanced sources, I don’t see how there shouldn’t be a United ireland but for a British politician to say that, that would make you unelectable. Which is the main point of my last post. 

How would you unite Ireland as one country when so many people in NI wish to remain in the UK? 

[kenny]

32 minutes ago, Lionator said:

He’s not currently an MP so it won’t be him. I’d put my money on Yvette Cooper most likely. 

Doubt they will go for it, but Anas Sarwar would be a good candidate.

[Lionator]

23 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

How would you unite Ireland as one country when so many people in NI wish to remain in the UK? 

I wouldn’t because that would cause a terrible situation, but I’d at the very least reinforce the good Friday agreement, devolve power even further to Stormont and really push for what is essentially independence. Reunification is historically and morally the right thing to do (given where most unionists came from) but it’s obviously also unethical to ship them all back to Scotland. 

[Lionator]

18 minutes ago, kenny said:

Doubt they will go for it, but Anas Sarwar would be a good candidate.

He’s a Scottish MSP so again wouldnt be eligible to stand. But I also do like him! 

[Dames]

3 hours ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Starmer would have got battered for missing an 'open goal' if he hadn't of said anything.

Not if he focused on the cost of living and hammered the Tories over tax rises.

 

He went too hard too early. Surely even the most basic of political advisors would have known the mail, telegraph, express, sun and times would have been digging deep for dirt on Starmer. Because he went so hard so early it leaves him with absolutely no wiggle room in contrast with his previous statements. 
 

Starmer staying is a massive win for the Tories now because they can just use this as false equivalence and it will get lapped up. 

[BlueSi13]

As a political own goal, Starmers must go down as one of the most boneheaded.  Lisa Nandy was completely right to warn Starmer off "partygate" knowing this would likely bite them in the arse down the line.  Clearly Starmer believed that he was in the clear based on Durham Police deciding to not formally investigate previously.    

 

 

Labour has a decision to make now, what do they believe is more valuable, Starmer staying, or the PM resigning.  If Starmer falls on this sword then the pressure on the PM would become absolutely huge.  Conservative MP's would likely move to take action very quickly.  

 

However if he stays, then Labour and the Conservatives will be in the same, very shaky boat.  However Starmer won't have the clean-cut-lawyer moral high ground to fight against Johnsons publicly known maverick persona anymore.  

 

Potentially a strong opportunity for the Liberal Democrats and the Greens (perhaps even Reform).

[Sampson]

Northern Ireland is the same old problems of a lot of colonialism really. Same problem US has with Native Americans - as to how much is it right to reverse things which people's ancestors did in 2022.

 

It's true that N. Ireland largely only exists because English and Scottish colonists went over and for all intents and purposes stole the land of the Irish people and forced them to work on it for little money or charged them obscene rents to stay there.

 

Objectively you're right it would be the moral thing to do to allow for a united Ireland, but it's the same argument as to how can you really tell people to uproot their identity and their homes based on what their great great grandparents did?

 

It's the same problem with a lot of Native American land stolen by American settlers, I think we know it's immoral, but at the same time, most people don't feel like they should be punished for something their ancestors did.

 

I think what Nalis says is right, I think a lot of people in England, Scotland and Wales think that we either should cede N. Ireland back to Ireland or they wouldn't be opposed to it at least, but at the same time, the worry is inciting the violence again.

 

The GFA before Brexit largely worked and was probably one of the best achievements in modern British and Irish history. To give people dual citizenship or the choice of either citizenship and for both UK and Ireland to sign an agreement saying they see the people of Northern Ireland as legally and culturally to be both or either British and Irish depending on the individual person's choice was pretty unheard of anywhere in the world in modern times.

Of course, Boris went and stuck a goods border right through the Irish Sea and clearly doesn't give a toss about N. Ireland has really scuppered that process and it is starting to feel like the needle in the region is coming back.

 

It's such a shame either way, been to Belfast a few times and it's such a nice part of the world and the people are so friendly. I think most people there just want a life free from violence above anything else, regardless of whether they lie in the borders of Ireland or the UK.

Edited 8 May 2022 by Sampson

[Tommy Fresh]

24 minutes ago, Dames said:

Not if he focused on the cost of living and hammered the Tories over tax rises.

 

He went too hard too early. Surely even the most basic of political advisors would have known the mail, telegraph, express, sun and times would have been digging deep for dirt on Starmer. Because he went so hard so early it leaves him with absolutely no wiggle room in contrast with his previous statements. 
 

Starmer staying is a massive win for the Tories now because they can just use this as false equivalence and it will get lapped up. 

He'd still be getting called out for not holding him to account, like when Boris joked Rashford was doing a better job like it's a good thing. 

Also it's easy to avoid questions on cost of living and taxes.

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

I wouldn’t because that would cause a terrible situation, but I’d at the very least reinforce the good Friday agreement, devolve power even further to Stormont and really push for what is essentially independence. Reunification is historically and morally the right thing to do (given where most unionists came from) but it’s obviously also unethical to ship them all back to Scotland. 

Is there any appetite within NI for independence from both Ireland and the UK? I'd be surprised if there is. And obviously yes, it's very difficult to send people to a completely different country from the one they were actually born in, I'm not sure why you say 'back' to Scotland, given that generations of families in NI were born in NI ... 

 

Out of curiosity do you feel similarly about the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Melita and so on? 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

Is there any appetite within NI for independence from both Ireland and the UK? I'd be surprised if there is. And obviously yes, it's very difficult to send people to a completely different country from the one they were actually born in, I'm not sure why you say 'back' to Scotland, given that generations of families in NI were born in NI ... 

 

Out of curiosity do you feel similarly about the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Melita and so on? 

a) I don’t know enough about the historical significance of these places to have an opinion.

b) it’s likely a completely different situation and incomparable to Ireland if we’re being honest given their respective population sizes. We’re talking about the historic oppression of millions. 

[LiberalFox]

5 hours ago, Lionator said:

Why do Brits still believe they hold the moral authority over N. Ireland? Why do Brits feel that they have the best interests of N. Ireland at heart? Why do we completely ignore the historical oppression of Irish people? 

You seem to be the only one here who fits the description on your first two points. As for the last one I think it should be something children learn about more but I think most people are aware of it. 

[Strokes]

6 hours ago, Lionator said:

a) I don’t know enough about the historical significance of these places to have an opinion.

b) it’s likely a completely different situation and incomparable to Ireland if we’re being honest given their respective population sizes. We’re talking about the historic oppression of millions. 

Should we send back all migrants too their ancestors birthplace or just Brits out of Northern Ireland?

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

[foxes1988]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

 

Brave move.  Bet Boris hopes Starmer isn't found to of been breaching the rules now 

[Zear0]

Bold, but predictable when thinking about it.  Given he's been calling for Boris' head for being fined (irrespective of the specifics), he'd have to walk if got a fine anyway.  Given his pre-politics job, he must have a fairly good idea of where he stands legally.

 

Might also have put a bit of pressure on the police if they're aware of the consequences of a fine which puts them in an awkward position.

[Voll Blau]

Absolutely the right thing to do but let's not kid ourselves, it won't put Johnson in an awkward position because he's a shameless cvnt. One ruffle of his hair in the next two years and the electorate will gleefully forgive him.

[Sampson]

“Unlike the former Leader of the Opposition, I will not give up on this country and will get down to the more important matters of the War in Ukraine.”

 

You can guarantee Boris comes out with something like that if Starmer resigns and won’t follow suit.

[LVFox]

The only move Starmer could really make, but it’s a beautifully brave one. If he doesn’t get fined he comes out of it beautifully