Did the club gamble and overreach?

[sacreblueits442]

On 10/01/2023 at 22:49, An Away Move said:

Ah yes! We did. I wonder if my point might still stand for the second season. We didn’t sell then and added Daka and Soumare. 

...this does not read correctly!!!

Are you saying we added Daka and Soumare in the next season after we initially failed to qualify for Champions league or are you stating the we later bolstered our squad further down the line?

[Tommy Fresh]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

But they aren’t countries who can afford hundreds of millions more in wages than if they qualified for the Europa League

 

Our “pull” was barely better once we won the league. Sure maybe players might favour us over say Everton, but it’s not like we’d suddenly be signing players in the same market Spurs or Arsenal were in. Even when Arsenal hadn’t qualified for the CL they were still signing players we never could realistically get.
 

That’s the reality of it. People keep saying we’d have a greater pull on players but what is that next level? We were already snapping up players from Newcastle at the time. Players like Ødegaard were probably the next level and a couple of CL group stages wouldn’t have brought that type of player in.

Yeah but qualifying two years on the bounce having won the league a few years earlier, would have shown we were consistent contenders to be there or thereabouts. 

[Sampson]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Yeah but qualifying two years on the bounce having won the league a few years earlier, would have shown we were consistent contenders to be there or thereabouts. 

Have to agree to disagree. Players would still choose the likes of Spurs and Arsenal regardless. I doubt it would’ve got a particular higher level of player in.

 

And given the absurd money Arsenal have spent the past 2 summers and Newcastle will spend, I think we would’ve only been getting 7th or 8th realistically now anyway regardless. Arsenal have spent £150m+ on players who would still have been out of our league in each of the last 2 or 3 summers to overtake us again, I very much doubt a couple of CL qualifications would’ve been able to counteract or compete with that.

Edited 13 January 2023 by Sampson

[Out Foxed]

On 10/01/2023 at 23:23, Rigga said:

Still frustrates the hell out of me us bottling CL x 2.

I said things wernt right back then and got shot down by plenty of fans..

 

we are just one massive mess and I just can’t wait for the season to end and don’t even care what league we are in next season.

we didn't bottle it. shows how weighted it is to the hundreds of million spending teams. we had to perform at the highest level all season and it still wasn't enough.

[Tommy Fresh]

8 hours ago, Sampson said:

Have to agree to disagree. Players would still choose the likes of Spurs and Arsenal regardless. I doubt it would’ve got a particular higher level of player in.

 

And given the absurd money Arsenal have spent the past 2 summers and Newcastle will spend, I think we would’ve only been getting 7th or 8th realistically now anyway regardless. Arsenal have spent £150m+ on players who would still have been out of our league in each of the last 2 or 3 summers to overtake us again, I very much doubt a couple of CL qualifications would’ve been able to counteract or compete with that.

Where have I said they wouldn't chose them? They will always have the bigger spending power and be bigger names which is why if we aren't competing I'd rather the big 6 occupied all top 6 spots, because teams in our bracket become a bigger pull than us by being in Europe. You realise there will be players that the top 6 probably wouldn't take a risk on or want but the players themselves wouldn't consider other clubs? Additionally you also realise the top 6 can't buy every player known of a certain standard? and it's pretty naive to think we couldn't/wouldn't have brought in a higher standard of player had we consecutively qualified (obviously dependent on us actually having the ability to identify them)

Edited 13 January 2023 by Tommy Fresh

[Rigga]

7 hours ago, Out Foxed said:

we didn't bottle it. shows how weighted it is to the hundreds of million spending teams. we had to perform at the highest level all season and it still wasn't enough.

We were plenty of points in front with about 10 games to go… we bottled it.. 2 years running..

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

When we bottled Champions League twice in a row those that pointed out what a terrible failure it was were all told to "stop moaning", "have some perspective", "we were in League 1 once don't you know?" etc.

 

Well now it's coming home to roost. 

[don_danbury]

On 12/01/2023 at 15:05, deanolegend1989 said:

This.

Spot on. It all started with this. I was on here a lot in 2020/2021 getting pelters for suggesting Brendan was overrated and he was living off the quality squad we had, now it has all shown up.

The reality is 2019 we had built a fantastic young squad that every manager wanted our job. Prime Ricardo and Chillwell at fullbacks, a midfield triangle of prime Wilf and a young Tillemans/madders who are only going to get better and a world class rampant Vards up front. 19/20 season we 100% should of got top 4, we were in fact the 3rd best team in the league that year and Chelsea being so weak with a transfer ban and a useless Man Utd team under Ole meant the door was open and we blew it.

We started like a house on fire but firstly, as you said above, giving Brendan that huge contract was mental. Not even hindsight either, I remember vividly at the time thinking 'Really? the job isnt even done yet..thats not like our owners to make silly decisions, I trust they know what there doing'. Vichai wouldnt of allowed that I dont think.

Big gamble which was stupid before we had achieved CL football. If he left for Arsenal who cares, the squad we had was the reason and at that time we'd of got another manager in of quality as we'd of been an attractive option at that point.

Absolutely no reason to get desperate with such an average manager just because we won 8 in a row and looked great because we had such a good squad.

 

This was definitely the start of what we are seeing now and it didnt help that almost straight away we hit a brick wall in form, Vards pulled up vs Liverpool on new years day and was never prime Vardy again, Ricardo broke his leg and then lock down stopped which I seem to remember helped Utd get injuries back from the break and didnt help us.

It also hurt King Power at the pocket due to lockdown which means a number of events and issues all came at the same time to put huge pressure now on achieving CL football for the money.

We blew it by a combination of injuries, poor management and bottle, so it felt like we missed our chance.

The summer of 20/21 though was the anomaly. Signing Castange and Fofana both great signings was great business and helped booster the squad for 20/21. We were not as fluent as 19/20 due to Chillwell leaving, Ricardo broken leg and Vards past his raw peak - all 3 such raw pace now we were much less paceless so more workman like and a solid spine with Evans Fofana and prime Ndidi.

In general we did well to hold it up the upper echelons with the injury list and troubles we had but with a bit of luck from Liverpool falling off a cliff with VVD injury and Chelsea bieng poorly managed by Frank before Tuchel came in, we had another opening. Again we bottled it but it felt less of a bottle this time and winning the FA Cup was a great achievement to at least show something for the quality squad we had for 2/3 years.

Since then though its all gone downhill. Firstly losing Fofana to leg break forcing us to waste money on Vesty, stupid signing of Betrand which is Brendan at his useless best and poor other recruitment in Daka and Soumare reminded me of summer 2016 with Musa Silva and Slimani. This happens but with a club like us we CANT get any wrong, even more so because of the poor decision to gamble huge on Brendan before we had the CL money in our hands.

Maybe Top worked out it would be ok but couldnt foresee Covid coming which would be very unfortunate timing but nevertheless it was poor desperate decision to pump hard on Brendan when its clear as day from his time at Pool that hes no good at rebuilding a team just lives off other peoples work.

 

We are now in a huge mess because of it, I cannot see also how we dont go down in 23/24 if we someone survive this season. Youri and Madders are both gone, Vards and Evans will all be retired and so unlike in 17/18-18/19 when whilst we were rebuilding we had the spine of quality in Kasper Evans Vardy Mahrez to hold us midtable whilst we re built, this time the spine behind these guys above who will go/retire are bloody useless. So next season with Amartey and Thomas in our back 4 and Daka running about up top. we are nailed 20th.

Youri is the reason we are just about holding up this year. Him and Madders aside we are imo the worst squad in the league now and itll show next year.

Id say as we stand we are absolute bankers to get relegated next year if we somehow survive this year.

was that not last season v liverpool on decemeber the 28th? pretty sure we spanked newcastle on new years day that season.

[weller54]

4 hours ago, Rigga said:

We were plenty of points in front with about 10 games to go… we bottled it.. 2 years running..

 

It was spursyesque!!

[Guy]

On 11/01/2023 at 03:51, MPH said:

I wouldn’t say we gambled and overreached but it’s probably no coincidence that things started to go wrong soon after Vichai died. Having said that we did win the FA cup, however I feel like that masked a steady decline in decision making and thus on field performances..

Yes. we were also lucky with winning the FA Cup re the lucky route to the final - with only a Man.Utd side in decline on the fifth round under Solskjaer as notable scalps - and of course with the way we rode our luck v Chelsea in the final with Kasper effectively saving the day! There was also that false slant to the whole competition that seaon from a crowd and atmosphere perspective IMO with the empty stadiums the team were playing in front of at the time which must have been a bizarre experience to all the players concerned and that you cannot help but think was responsible for a lot of freak results in the 2020-21 season. Anyway I agree that the win also papered over the cracks of the time that would become more evident the following season (last season) of course....

[Babylon]

On 10/01/2023 at 22:49, Freeman's Wharfer said:

No. We didn’t gamble enough.

 

Either January that season an extra £30m would have made a world of difference.

 Not if spent on Soumare and Vestergaard

[Babylon]

On 10/01/2023 at 22:52, SecretPro said:

The time to gamble was after the title winning season and we didn't do it. Should have gone big. 

 

The long term ethos of being self-sustaining and restricted budgets just isn't going to cut it at the top level. Heavy, heavy investment in playing staff is required to sustain achievement at this level and now we can all clearly see what happens when we don't have it.

Spending for one or two seasons would age done little but given a short term boost, potentially.
 

It takes consistent spending to stay at that level pretty much, because all clubs make mistakes with transfers and you need to be endless pots of cash to just get rid and buy more new ones. Even then it’s not good enough, look at the “big 6” currently. 

 

Few clubs are either big enough or have state investors to keep that up. It’s pie in the sky stuff.

[Babylon]

On 11/01/2023 at 00:48, FoxTimmy2 said:

The club is paying CL wages for players that are performing like low-mid table championship side. At £85M/year, relegation would bankrupt us without the much needed PL revenue.

We aren’t paying CL wages and our wage bill is vastly bigger than £85m.

 

I can only pray Rudkin put relegation wage clauses in contracts. That might be his final **** up that sees us go under.

[smudger63]

7 hours ago, Guy said:

Yes. we were also lucky with winning the FA Cup re the lucky route to the final - with only a Man.Utd side in decline on the fifth round under Solskjaer as notable scalps - and of course with the way we rode our luck v Chelsea in the final with Kasper effectively saving the day! There was also that false slant to the whole competition that seaon from a crowd and atmosphere perspective IMO with the empty stadiums the team were playing in front of at the time which must have been a bizarre experience to all the players concerned and that you cannot help but think was responsible for a lot of freak results in the 2020-21 season. Anyway I agree that the win also papered over the cracks of the time that would become more evident the following season (last season) of course....

Please don't belittle our FA Cup win, and take away some of the achievement for winning it. Its what the media and pundits like to do with our Premier league win.  Saying we only won it because everyone else was crap, despite the fact we only lost 3 times, and to only 2 teams that season, Liverpool away and Arsenal twice, and the Arsenal away game in which they scored the winner in the last few seconds. We also had Kante, Mahrez and Vardy in their pomp. Top top players. We all know that had Tottenham or Arsenal won the league that year, it wouldn't be seen as "because all the other teams were crap".  I'm fed up of them trying to diminish our achievement. Now you are suggesting we only won the FA Cup, something I had dreamt of us winning for 50 odd years, because there were no crowds, and we had a fortunate draw in getting there! Despite the mess we seem to be in at the moment, and despite us blowing the top 4  two seasons running, (more down to injuries and lack of investment in those January windows for me) the years we have had since our promotion have been absolutely amazing, and our achievements should be acknowledged properly and shouted from the rooftops, as a celebration of what can still be achieved without having the money and resources of many other clubs in this modern era of football.

Edited 14 January 2023 by smudger63

[Gazza M]

No, just guilty of handing out silly contracts to very average players and manager. We are the football charity that keeps on giving at times. 

[Finnaldo]

22 hours ago, Out Foxed said:

we didn't bottle it. shows how weighted it is to the hundreds of million spending teams. we had to perform at the highest level all season and it still wasn't enough.

The second time in isolation I can appreciate that we perhaps didn’t bottle, it was weak form after a season including Europe and the teams around us just had too much over us. The first time, however, we literally hit relegation form. If we had the most bang average, or even under average form we would have got enough points to qualify for CL. But it was an utter pathetic collapse. I wasn’t Brendan Out at that point, but to completely lose all cohesion and team spirit to throw away the points gap we’d accumulated was dire, and from then I was wary. The next year, as I said not as severe but we did ultimately give up a good position. Pressure and ghosts of season past get to us? This again pointed to the manager unable to shake us into form. FA Cup clouded this somewhat, but everything that happened after that it was clear that as a club we’re simply not up to form.

 

A lot of folk laughed at us pre-season when it was said relegation was on the cards this season, but if you paid any attention whatsoever it was clear this is the path we’ve been on since we first bottled CL and in all those years the rot hasn’t been detected or arrested. Utter failure from manager and board.

[Guy]

13 hours ago, smudger63 said:

Please don't belittle our FA Cup win, and take away some of the achievement for winning it. Its what the media and pundits like to do with our Premier league win.  Saying we only won it because everyone else was crap, despite the fact we only lost 3 times, and to only 2 teams that season, Liverpool away and Arsenal twice, and the Arsenal away game in which they scored the winner in the last few seconds. We also had Kante, Mahrez and Vardy in their pomp. Top top players. We all know that had Tottenham or Arsenal won the league that year, it wouldn't be seen as "because all the other teams were crap".  I'm fed up of them trying to diminish our achievement. Now you are suggesting we only won the FA Cup, something I had dreamt of us winning for 50 odd years, because there were no crowds, and we had a fortunate draw in getting there! Despite the mess we seem to be in at the moment, and despite us blowing the top 4  two seasons running, (more down to injuries and lack of investment in those January windows for me) the years we have had since our promotion have been absolutely amazing, and our achievements should be acknowledged properly and shouted from the rooftops, as a celebration of what can still be achieved without having the money and resources of many other clubs in this modern era of football.

For the record then I wasn't belittling our Premier League win which you seem to be dragging me into saying I was! - who would? Only anybody who didn't like "little Leicester" winning it would say the above! I was just stating that I thought we had a very straightforward run to the final and Kasper played a blinder in it which ensured we held onto our slender lead after Youri's wonder strike of course....and which led to our long overdue triumph in the competition. Even by then though the team was beginning to wane a bit - as last season completely proved. I think the lack of crowds had a massive effect between January-April that season too, it really did! - but quite what effect we'll never know as we weren't there and we weren't the players. Meanwhile our Premier League win remains the greatest sporting miracle of all time!! 

[smudger63]

1 minute ago, Guy said:

For the record then I wasn't belittling our Premier League win which you seem to be dragging me into saying I was! - who would? Only anybody who didn't like "little Leicester" winning it would say the above! I was just stating that I thought we had a very straightforward run to the final and Kasper played a blinder in it which ensured we held onto our slender lead after Youri's wonder strike of course....and which led to our long overdue triumph in the competition. Even by then though the team was beginning to wane a bit - as last season completely proved. I think the lack of crowds had a massive effect between January-April that season too, it really did! - but quite what effect we'll never know as we weren't there and we weren't the players. Meanwhile our Premier League win remains the greatest sporting miracle of all time!! 

I didn`t say you were belittling our Premier league win, if you read it again, you will see that i said it sounded like you were belittling our FA Cup win, which is what the media and pundits like to do with our Premier league win.  You say we had a fortunate route to the final, and yet we played Stoke and Brentford away, 2 championship teams at the time, and both notoriously difficult places to get a result, then followed up with Brighton, Man Utd and Southampton, 3 premier league sides, before beating Chelsea another Premier league side in the final.  I wouldnt say that was an easy route to the final, it was a tough one.  Anyway thats in the past now.  We have more pressing concerns to worry about!

[Dahnsouff]

No, even worse, they stood still.

[Guy]

12 minutes ago, smudger63 said:

I didn`t say you were belittling our Premier league win, if you read it again, you will see that i said it sounded like you were belittling our FA Cup win, which is what the media and pundits like to do with our Premier league win.  You say we had a fortunate route to the final, and yet we played Stoke and Brentford away, 2 championship teams at the time, and both notoriously difficult places to get a result, then followed up with Brighton, Man Utd and Southampton, 3 premier league sides, before beating Chelsea another Premier league side in the final.  I wouldnt say that was an easy route to the final, it was a tough one.  Anyway thats in the past now.  We have more pressing concerns to worry about!

Yes, just slightly differing opinions re our run to the FAC final two seasons ago I guess......tough in some ways but I just personally think the lack of any crowds in the stadiums made a fundamental difference to all of the games at the time, not just ours. Anyway as for our present plight then I think it's just as well there are five poor teams beneath us! 

[smudger63]

25 minutes ago, Guy said:

Yes, just slightly differing opinions re our run to the FAC final two seasons ago I guess......tough in some ways but I just personally think the lack of any crowds in the stadiums made a fundamental difference to all of the games at the time, not just ours. Anyway as for our present plight then I think it's just as well there are five poor teams beneath us! 

Problem is some of those five teams are picking up, where as we are just getting worse.

[Guy]

41 minutes ago, smudger63 said:

Problem is some of those five teams are picking up, where as we are just getting worse.

Yes, plus they've signed players! We were unlucky to lose against Liverpool and Fulham over the festive period but have been a distant second best in the other two league fixtures played. A narrow win in between against the football league's bottom side at present can quickly be written off/not count in the present circumstances! 

[southfox66]

No bad signings and poor tactics 

Edited 14 January 2023 by southfox66

[Dave Fishwick]

We didn't gamble at all and then covid restricted what King Power could do. Couldn't foresee that, but the time to gamble was the season we were in a title race at Christmas

[westernpark]

Just now, Dave Fishwick said:

We didn't gamble at all and then covid restricted what King Power could do. Couldn't foresee that, but the time to gamble was the season we were in a title race at Christmas

Yeah and we signed Ryan Bennett to maintain the title bid.