Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[breadandcheese]

29 minutes ago, bmt said:

But Israel are directly murdering civilians (right now) in response. Flattening "entire neighborhoods" (bbc) in the worst bombing in decaded; no water, food or electricity for anyone in Gaza. If Hamas can't be included then how can Netanyahu's Israel? 

 

 

I'm not going to defend no water or food for Gaza because I can't (although I'm sure Israel would say it can come across the Egyptian border, so there will be questions to that).

 

It is horrendous that Palestinian civilians are being killed and I don't know what the answer is. But it is not murder. Manslaughter yes, but they are not the targets. And I appreciate it is a small legal point which doesn't comfort anyone suffering the desperate loss of a loved one but it is important in terms of language that is used in such an emotive conflict.

 

Again, I think it's needs a military strategist to provide their knowledge of how you undertake a military operation to overthrow Hamas from a heavily guarded enclave in which they have embedded all their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure. Because I suspect all options for undertaking such an operation are depressingly bad and probably look similar to what Israel is doing / going to do.

 

I don't think Netanyahu survives politically from this. He won't be included.

[bmt]

26 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not going to defend no water or food for Gaza because I can't (although I'm sure Israel would say it can come across the Egyptian border, so there will be questions to that).

 

It is horrendous that Palestinian civilians are being killed and I don't know what the answer is. But it is not murder. Manslaughter yes, but they are not the targets. And I appreciate it is a small legal point which doesn't comfort anyone suffering the desperate loss of a loved one but it is important in terms of language that is used in such an emotive conflict.

 

Again, I think it's needs a military strategist to provide their knowledge of how you undertake a military operation to overthrow Hamas from a heavily guarded enclave in which they have embedded all their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure. Because I suspect all options for undertaking such an operation are depressingly bad and probably look similar to what Israel is doing / going to do.

 

I don't think Netanyahu survives politically from this. He won't be included.

Fair points. I'm not sure I agree on the murder vs manslaughter point though and think there will be countless of examples which fall firmly into the first label perpetrated by both sides.

[Finnegan]

43 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

But it is not murder. Manslaughter yes, but they are not the targets

 

Oh fvck man. I know you're not being deliberately cold but I'd love to see you argue that distinction to some Palestinian mother roaring over the body of her baby because it had the accident of birth of being born in the same Gaza postcode some Hamas commander once passed through on his way to do his weekly shop. 

 

Dead civilians are dead civilians and it's horrific whether you walk in to a festival ground and start firing or you lob rockets at them from a mile away. 

 

Quibbling over the semantics to literally downplay one set of civilian deaths while emphasising how horrific another is is exactly the sort of hypocrisy people are objecting to. 

 

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I'd have a word with your dad too, flogging merchandise after a gig indeed!

Well if they aren't going to sell half and half scarves inside, where else you gonna go?

[String fellow]

When I was young, Israel was in the Near East. Did they move it to the Middle East one day without telling us?

[AKCJ]

That Iron Dome thing is some bit of kit.

[Muzzy_no7]

Wonder if the protesters at the Meridian will protest against the actions of Hamas? 

[Zear0]

1 minute ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Wonder if the protesters at the Meridian will protest against the actions of Hamas? 

They throwing bricks at Harvester?

[Trav Le Bleu]

31 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Well if they aren't going to sell half and half scarves inside, where else you gonna go?

Do you think half and half scarves would sell on the Gaza border?

[Trav Le Bleu]

12 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

They throwing bricks at Harvester?

There's a protest camp in the business park outside a company that makes parts for military drones.

[CheeseHead]

14 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Wonder if the protesters at the Meridian will protest against the actions of Hamas? 

I work a 100yds from where they are protesting. Seems to have picked up somewhat this week, unsurprisingly.

[Finnegan]

17 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

They throwing bricks at Harvester?

 

Jokes on them, the Harvester staff are throwing Harvester bread rolls back and I know which is tougher. 

[Wortho]

How can the massacring of 260 of festival goers and abducting families, children and elderly will any way alleviate the very real plight of the people of Gaza?

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Do you think half and half scarves would sell on the Gaza border?

 

And just like that, Trav Le Bleu solved the Palestine crisis. 

[breadandcheese]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Oh fvck man. I know you're not being deliberately cold but I'd love to see you argue that distinction to some Palestinian mother roaring over the body of her baby because it had the accident of birth of being born in the same Gaza postcode some Hamas commander once passed through on his way to do his weekly shop. 

 

Dead civilians are dead civilians and it's horrific whether you walk in to a festival ground and start firing or you lob rockets at them from a mile away. 

 

Quibbling over the semantics to literally downplay one set of civilian deaths while emphasising how horrific another is is exactly the sort of hypocrisy people are objecting to. 

 

 

I agree with what you're saying and appreciate it sounds cold and heartless. It is not meant like that even if it sounds it.

 

It sounds silly to quibble over semantics but I think it rather important to use correct language as this an emotive and inflammatory subject that has led to this country having to step up security at communities around the country. So it might seem semantic pointing out the distinction that our legal system makes here in UK, but it is important because language matters.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Why would a respectable state stop a neighbouring country driving aid trucks into an area heavily populated with civilians. Why, especially so given that neighbouring country is an ally who warned you of the threat of attack 10 days prior. 

[Costock_Fox]

44 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

They throwing bricks at Harvester?

Getting ugly at the salad bar, got confused with Hamas and Hummus apparently.

[bmt]

31 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

 

I agree with what you're saying and appreciate it sounds cold and heartless. It is not meant like that even if it sounds it.

 

It sounds silly to quibble over semantics but I think it rather important to use correct language as this an emotive and inflammatory subject that has led to this country having to step up security at communities around the country. So it might seem semantic pointing out the distinction that our legal system makes here in UK, but it is important because language matters.

I agreed with you on a lot of the rest of your comment but I don't understand how the semantics of the UK legal system matters at all, with it being an emotive and inflammatory subject. 

 

I do actually agree that language is important and historically important in this, mostly the 'othering' of Palestinians, but the difference in murder or manslaughter when indiscriminately blowing up a tiny area of land where people are forced to live doesn't seem to matter.

 

Interesting that Hamas are now giving Israeli civilians time to leave Ashkelon in a gesture Israel has often used before obliterating people's houses as it shows how comparable they are.

[fuchsntf]

Nearly 50 yrs ago in my naive youth…I worked in Israel then did VSO in Palestine..

I had then my hardenned beliefs,what we in the west consider fair,and in life to give & take.

Neither then,and right upto now, have I found anything sensible in all questions in theological & cultural differences.

 

People falling either on the  Israel table of  life historic or modern,not what’s spititual but their everyday life

snd the same for Palestians, one can listen to all their lifés excuses and demands,they can’t pull away from

gravital pull of theological/cultural opinions despite feeling empathy for others.

 

I have had,still do have Muslim,Hindu,Jewish friends & aquiantances over all these years,many of those in UK,if not intigrated

still fall into those good balanced  human theological thoughts,but also those good friends still living their lives at their own

Various Ground-zero..

 

On a insurgent,aggressive theological conflicts,just like any other discrimatory conflicts, those ( IMHO) group of gangsters using their situation to work the system under thoelogical/cultural grounds are really in the minority..But any moment someone steps on someone’s shared religious /holy grounds toes,or cross swords on that slight or main body of opinion..That minority needle-pointer,has a natural swerve into the majority,while wise heads from across all conflict-calls,slip into the minority…

 

This is the same across all wave lengths,in the human society. The challenges of bearing children over 9 months,building decades of friendships across each others divide & boundaries, and across the political red & blue lines..is somehow put on hold. The evils of who does what to whom,seems to dig in and take priority. The ,hypocrocy of the hand that reaches out is buried in that rubble of hypocrocy…The need for power ( gangster,criminal mentality) or belonging to some righteous ideology and idol ,seems too strong to resist. It controls even those considered to be free states/nations because of those various strong political lobbies,easily supported by outside corrupt Politicians & business-men, chasing the power or the money,or both it brings.

Strange thing is whether you follow,the bible,  the Koran,  Bhagavad Gita / Mahabharata , Tripitaka, just Brudes and helps at all levels of society,  and don’t forget that non-commital twists of being that quiet  Partner the atheist. If we have one little drop of any type of discrimination,we allow the hypocrocy of all our lives to be taken advantage of…Being like our western comfortable lives,and desire to enjoy our freedom of a turning a blind-eye ignorance,only adds to and feed the fires of conflict. Where occasionally because of our multicultural travelling, modern living partnerships,we experience closely our own losses,that crosses into that divide or those divides.
what hurts most we can’t seemingly do a damn thing against it..No matter if we believe we have the simple solutions.

Forgiving is really easy,but forgetting & forgiving,the last of many acts becomes impossible,and prejudices any hopes towards permanent solution.

 

 

 

 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

How can the massacring of 260 of festival goers and abducting families, children and elderly will any way alleviate the very real plight of the people of Gaza?

 

 

I dont think they see it that way.. i think they are more interested in avenging deaths/ suffering.

 

A Music festival calling for peace?   Bad target to choose if you're wanting to sway public opinion

Edited 10 October 2023 by MPH

[breadandcheese]

15 minutes ago, bmt said:

I agreed with you on a lot of the rest of your comment but I don't understand how the semantics of the UK legal system matters at all, with it being an emotive and inflammatory subject. 

 

I do actually agree that language is important and historically important in this, mostly the 'othering' of Palestinians, but the difference in murder or manslaughter when indiscriminately blowing up a tiny area of land where people are forced to live doesn't seem to matter.

 

Interesting that Hamas are now giving Israeli civilians time to leave Ashkelon in a gesture Israel has often used before obliterating people's houses as it shows how comparable they are.

 

I guess the point I am making is re: intent. We place huge importance on it when judging crimes and it helps to form our judgement.

 

So I don't believe the term murder fits.

 

As pointed out, it does nothing to console an innocent Palestinian who has lost a loved one, but when we are debating, with the inflammatory nature of the conflict, I believe it is important.  Primarily because it has consequences here in UK with police presence having to be stepped up in smaller communities due to raised threats. I'm not suggesting anyone from here is going to do anything daft but I am wary of terminology and inflammatory rhetoric, even if it seems minor, nit-picking and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

[Wortho]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

I dont think they see it that way.. i think they are more interested in avenging deaths/ suffering.

 

A Music festival calling for peace?   Bad target to choose if you're wanting to sway public opinion

Hamas knew exactly how the IDF would react. This just demonstrates how they feel about their own people, knowing they will be bombed.

 

I suppose the terrorists will remember the day they slaughtered 1000 Israelis, and no doubt will be proud of all the women and children they raped.

[HighPeakFox]

As a man both of Jewish descent, and having also been ostracised by former friends that happen to be Jewish, can I just state that I have a lot to say but will choose not to say it.

 

What I will say is that it is a total c**t of a situation and nobody comes out of it well.

[SecretPro]

1 hour ago, Costock_Fox said:

Getting ugly at the salad bar, got confused with Hamas and Hummus apparently.

Underrated post. 

[Scotch]

38 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

As a man both of Jewish descent, and having also been ostracised by former friends that happen to be Jewish, can I just state that I have a lot to say but will choose not to say it.

 

What I will say is that it is a total c**t of a situation and nobody comes out of it well.

Tbh, Jewish heritage or not, I think a LOT of people could benefit from keeping their mouth shut on this. 

 

In my younger days I was quite outspoken on the issue but with age, I realised that, it's an intricately complicated issue that like most people, i don't fully understand. Look at the Celtic fans at the weekend for example...