Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[Mickyblueeyes]

As usual, British politicians offer absolutely nothing of value to this conflict. Happily running sound bites for votes suggesting they are offering some sort of value. In reality, they’ve caused nothing but harm to both sides for years. The best option for Britain is to sit in the corner on this one and let someone else add some value if they possibly can.

[CosbehFox]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And, if I may be frank, a state with a very strong Jewish history and its representatives really should know where such "othering" ends and so perhaps think twice about using it on others.

His language yesterday - and the action of cutting off power, water and supply was chilling to that point. 

 

 

9 hours ago, SecretPro said:

Correct, but the Western world has and only ever will take the side of Israel. 

 

Someone compared it yesterday to same way Saudi and UAE 'sports wash' except its media washing with tons of money to do it with. 

[Lionator]

EU suspending aid and building projects to Palestine was an extremely disappointing step. Fortunately it seems like Macron and Sanchez have veto'ed it. There would've been zero reason for doing this.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

As usual, British politicians offer absolutely nothing of value to this conflict. Happily running sound bites for votes suggesting they are offering some sort of value. In reality, they’ve caused nothing but harm to both sides for years. The best option for Britain is to sit in the corner on this one and let someone else add some value if they possibly can.

I don't think they, or anyone else with such power, really want a solution to the problem and the headache that it would entail to get there tbh. Easier and better for realpolitik for the status quo to continue, as sad as that sounds.

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And, if I may be frank, a state with a very strong Jewish history and its representatives really should know where such "othering" ends and so perhaps think twice about using it on others.

 

This has happened endlessly throughout human history. Vin Garbutt, God rest him, was one of England's greatest ever folk singers. He used to sing, usually a capella, a piece called When Oppressed Becomes Oppressor about exactly that. Often springs in to my head when this shit cracks off. 

 

[Lionator]

2 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

As usual, British politicians offer absolutely nothing of value to this conflict. Happily running sound bites for votes suggesting they are offering some sort of value. In reality, they’ve caused nothing but harm to both sides for years. The best option for Britain is to sit in the corner on this one and let someone else add some value if they possibly can.

A lot of it is just manoeuvring for domestic policy. Pathetic really. To be fair Tony Blair (yeah I know) has been working on this for years and basically sees no prospect of peace anytime soon as the will is just not there from either side (unlike NI in the 90's where peace was genuinely important for both sides).

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

His language yesterday - and the action of cutting off power, water and supply was chilling to that point. 

 

 

Indeed.

 

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

This has happened endlessly throughout human history. Vin Garbutt, God rest him, was one of England's greatest ever folk singers. He used to sing, usually a capella, a piece called When Oppressed Becomes Oppressor about exactly that. Often springs in to my head when this shit cracks off. 

 

Yeah. It's the "cycle of abuse", but on the scale of a people, not individual.

 

And it takes a lot to break that cycle.

[Lionator]

Netanyahu is a facist by the way.

[SecretPro]

2 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Netanyahu is a facist by the way.

It wasn't that long ago most progressive Israelis wanted him gone. He loves a crisis, this will keep him in a job.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

I’m way over my head with all this all i know is people I know and tend to agree with politically seem to think there’s a lot more to it than feeling bad for Israel.

[breadandcheese]

25 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But it's been extremely easy for Hamas to get this point of being the dominant force in Gaza (OK, partly because of Iranian support) because of reactions like Israel's now. 

 

It's the same thing every time, othering Palestinians, literally calling them animals, committing war crimes on mass against civilian population centres, bombing the shit out of them and then cutting off their food and utilities when they try to recover as if Gaza is one large military base and everyone in it is a Hamas soldier. 

 

What a fvcking surprise when the victims of this get radicalised. 

 

Nobody (bar the odd crack pot) is celebrating loss of Israeli life but it is galling to see normal, sensible people (not on here of course) defend Israel's response by buying in to the narrative that Palestinian = Hamas and completely overlooking that @SecretPro is almost certainly right, if the Palestinian death toll isn't already much higher than the Israeli one then it imminently will be.

 

They're not "animals" thanks Mr Netanyahu, they're human beings and they're overwhelmingly innocent victims. 

 

I'm not going to defend Netanyahu. The guy's a c*nt. And the points you make provide context to the war but it was red lines over any sense of what we could call humanity. It is evident that Hamas aren't fighting to get Israel to the negotiating table.

 

As callous as it is to say, all the events of the last 70 years are irrelevant. Because I think everyone can agree that Hamas needs to be removed from power and cannot be left to rule over the Gaza Strip if we want to think about the future or any prospect of peace. 

 

Which as I say is depressing because I don't know how that happens without huge loss of life, due to Hamas's military infrastructure being embedded within the civilian infrastructure.

 

At this point, it would be interesting if anyone with military knowledge at a strategic level could provide information as to how a modern military would undertake such an operation. Which I hate myself for typing as it presents an unfolding military operation in a very sterile way as if talking football tactics.

 

All in all it's depressing.

[SpacedX]

12 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

This has happened endlessly throughout human history. Vin Garbutt, God rest him, was one of England's greatest ever folk singers. He used to sing, usually a capella, a piece called When Oppressed Becomes Oppressor about exactly that. Often springs in to my head when this shit cracks off. 

 

The Teesside Troubadour. I've very rarely come across anyone that is familiar with his work. His discography isn't huge but he thrived as a live musician and raconteur - particularly in his second home, Australia. A wonderful talent and criminally overlooked by the majors. That didn't bother him in the slightest, he was happy in the world he created. 

 

Inspired by Freire's 'Pedagogy of the Oppressed' and as you suggest, hugely apposite and poignant in times such as these. 

[breadandcheese]

6 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

It wasn't that long ago most progressive Israelis wanted him gone. He loves a crisis, this will keep him in a job.

Netanyahu's political career is finished. Make no mistake of that. 

[Lionator]

2 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

It wasn't that long ago most progressive Israelis wanted him gone. He loves a crisis, this will keep him in a job.

They had managed to with their last government. Having read about Lapid last night, he seems genuine about wanting to find a peace solution but this just gets hampered by Hamas and internal Israeli's who see peace as not possible, and subsequently gets democratically overthrown.

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Netanyahu's political career is finished. Make no mistake of that. 

Fingers crossed, the Egyptian warning in particular will get downplayed but if true it's borderline treason.

[SpacedX]

6 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

It wasn't that long ago most progressive Israelis wanted him gone. He loves a crisis, this will keep him in a job.

Not necessarily.

 

As I suggested on the 'Also in the News' thread, he knows full well that Israeli PMs do not long survive military debacles. Think Meir after the Yom Kippur war, Begin following the first Lebanon War and Olmert after the second. Netanyahu will already be searching for scapegoats and blaming his generals/Mossad for an appalling lack of intelligence. This was anything but a means to deliver some grand plan or nefarious scheme. I am certain that his was an attack orchestrated by Iran to destabilise the region in terms of the emergent alignment/interests between Riyadh and Washington focussed on Israel.  

[bmt]

1 hour ago, breadandcheese said:

I understand what you're saying and I think if Hamas had made an assault on an Israeli army base and stopped at that, you could say this as it would be a military operation in the context of a war that has been going on for decades.

 

But this wasn't that. This was an operation to murder. It goes beyond anything any of us should consider acceptable. And even with the nuance of the pressure cooker of Gaza, it doesn't take away from their agency in the situation with regards their decisions.

 

The realised point I made is more the world realizing that Hamas cannot be part of any conversation on the future and in Israel's case, the status quo of the last decade (Hamas running the Gaza Strip in a quiet stalemate)

But Israel are directly murdering civilians (right now) in response. Flattening "entire neighborhoods" (bbc) in the worst bombing in decaded; no water, food or electricity for anyone in Gaza. If Hamas can't be included then how can Netanyahu's Israel? 

 

 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

The Teesside Troubadour. I've very rarely come across anyone that is familiar with his work. His discography isn't huge but he thrived as a live musician and raconteur - particularly in his second home, Australia. A wonderful talent and criminally overlooked by the majors. That didn't bother him in the slightest, he was happy in the world he created. 

 

Inspired by Freire's 'Pedagogy of the Oppressed' and as you suggest, hugely apposite and poignant in times such as these. 

One of the best works I have ever read.

[David Hankey]

Now in my 70's I can't ever remember when there has been real peace in the Middle East and I doubt there ever will be as hatred of both is always simmering underneath.

[Finnegan]

5 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

The Teesside Troubadour. I've very rarely come across anyone that is familiar with his work. His discography isn't huge but he thrived as a live musician and raconteur - particularly in his second home, Australia. A wonderful talent and criminally overlooked by the majors. That didn't bother him in the slightest, he was happy in the world he created. 

 

Inspired by Freire's 'Pedagogy of the Oppressed' and as you suggest, hugely apposite and poignant in times such as these. 

 

Yeah my parents were pretty big folkies, saw him a few times in my life. 

 

Took my dad, who is a huge fan, to one of his last tours and possibly his last gig in Leicester in the Guild Hall before he died (VG that is, my dad's still hanging on bless him.) Got to have a chat with him flogging merch afterwards. Lovely bloke. 

 

Absolutely stunning voice. Genuinely saddened when he passed. 

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah my parents were pretty big folkies, saw him a few times in my life. 

 

Took my dad, who is a huge fan, to one of his last tours and possibly his last gig in Leicester in the Guild Hall before he died (VG that is, my dad's still hanging on bless him.) Got to have a chat with him flogging merch afterwards. Lovely bloke. 

 

Absolutely stunning voice. Genuinely saddened when he passed. 

Many years ago, someone played me 'Wings' and that was job done. Couldn't believe I'd overlooked and was ignorant of such a fine talent. 

[Finnegan]

Just now, SpacedX said:

Many years ago, someone played me 'Wings' and that was job done. Couldn't believe I'd overlooked and was ignorant of such a fine talent. 

 

It's something he'd joke about a lot himself really, England and the English in general just aren't really that big on their folk traditions. If he was from any other country in the UK & Ireland he'd have likely been a much bigger name (relatively speaking.)

 

[Lionator]

18 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Now in my 70's I can't ever remember when there has been real peace in the Middle East and I doubt there ever will be as hatred of both is always simmering underneath.

Despite this, it's probably the closest it's ever been with the recent Saudi-Iranian deal.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Despite this, it's probably the closest it's ever been with the recent Saudi-Iranian deal.

Which may have made the hardliners on both sides so desperate for something like this.

[Trav Le Bleu]

24 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah my parents were pretty big folkies, saw him a few times in my life. 

 

Took my dad, who is a huge fan, to one of his last tours and possibly his last gig in Leicester in the Guild Hall before he died (VG that is, my dad's still hanging on bless him.) Got to have a chat with him flogging merch afterwards. Lovely bloke. 

 

Absolutely stunning voice. Genuinely saddened when he passed. 

I'd have a word with your dad too, flogging merchandise after a gig indeed!