Why aren't we making actual substitutions in games?

[phoneticerror]

26 minutes ago, Product of 84 said:

I think Vardy was at risk of picking up an injury. I don't think he can play 90 let alone 100mins. Its not just the running it's the time on feet. Better to get him off, rest him for 3 days then have him back in training ready for the following weekend than injured.

 

I think 

Cannon deserves to be the second choice over Daka.

[jayfox26]

10 hours ago, Product of 84 said:

I think Vardy was at risk of picking up an injury. I don't think he can play 90 let alone 100mins. Its not just the running it's the time on feet. Better to get him off, rest him for 3 days then have him back in training ready for the following weekend than injured.

 

I think 

Other than Chelsea in the fa Cup, which he most likely won't play in, we don't have a game for 3 weeks. Im sure Vardy would have rather stayed on and tried for a hat trick rather than been rested for 15 minutes when he probably won't play for 3 weeks. 

[Product of 84]

2 hours ago, jayfox26 said:

Other than Chelsea in the fa Cup, which he most likely won't play in, we don't have a game for 3 weeks. Im sure Vardy would have rather stayed on and tried for a hat trick rather than been rested for 15 minutes when he probably won't play for 3 weeks. 

I'm sure he would.

 

But you're more likely to pick up a muscle injury in the last 15 mins of a game due to fatigue. 

[deep blue]

On 09/03/2024 at 17:28, Chelmofox said:

Daka was a sub right? Everyone is whinging about that.

 

Uses subs, everyone moans the subs are shit (Kasey Mac against Leeds for example)

Don't use subs, complains there are game changing subs on the bench.

 

Our bench is poor im afriad. Thats the problem.

 

 

The fact that we made 9 changes and won at Bournemouth illustrates that we have very good depth.  The problem is not that our bench is poor ... but rather that it's poorly utilised.

 

We need to see subs used earlier, and selected more astutely.  As Winteriscoming said, "proactively not reactively".

[The Doctor]

On 09/03/2024 at 18:57, Gamble92 said:

It is annoying though. I don't quite get why we are all saying we have no options. You could easily put Marcal and Mcateer out wide to chase down for 15 minutes. I don't see how that's worse than a nackered Mavididi and Fatawu .

 

Fatawu is absolutely class defensively btw

We did that at Leeds and McAteers defending was a part of the reason why we collapsed

[Claudio Fannieri]

I am not defending Enzo here and this is a genuine question, in relation to the lack of use of the subs, I do wonder if there are some appearance based clauses that are trying to be managed/mitigated. Therefore the utilisation of some of the squad is being controlled so not to trigger certain clauses.  
 

people say Enzo doesn’t trust the squad and this may be true, however he seems to use pretty much a shadow squad for the FA cup and the players seem to be putting in a shift for him. Perhaps this isn’t a personal thing with the manager but something else. 

Edited 11 March by Claudio Fannieri

[Chrysalis]

1 hour ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

I am not defending Enzo here and this is a genuine question, in relation to the lack of use of the subs, I do wonder if there are some appearance based clauses that are trying to be managed/mitigated. Therefore the utilisation of some of the squad is being controlled so not to trigger certain clauses.  
 

people say Enzo doesn’t trust the squad and this may be true, however he seems to use pretty much a shadow squad for the FA cup and the players seem to be putting in a shift for him. Perhaps this isn’t a personal thing with the manager but something else. 

Likewise with appearance obligations as well, think you might be on to something.

[Ric Flair]

On 09/03/2024 at 17:28, Chelmofox said:

Daka was a sub right? Everyone is whinging about that.

 

Uses subs, everyone moans the subs are shit (Kasey Mac against Leeds for example)

Don't use subs, complains there are game changing subs on the bench.

 

Our bench is poor im afriad. Thats the problem.

 

 

Excuses.

 

He made plenty of subs in the first part of the season (had injury problems then too) and we saw games out / scored late goals as good as anyone in the division.

 

The difference back then was he wasn't afraid to replace almost anyone in the team, regularly we'd make subs on 55/60 mins as players had ran themselves in to the ground or we'd ran the opposition in to the ground and the subs came on and applied the pressure to break down their resistance.

 

What's abundantly clear right now is a) we've certain players badly out of form and yet he still won't rest them and b) we've other players who look jaded and he still won't rest them. 

 

Fans moan we've been found out by the opposition but I'm not so sure, more likely our squads fitness levels are not as strong as they were due to work load and our dominance is diluted without it.

 

This is on Enzo I'm afraid, the last month he's really struggled as a manager and is showing precious little signs of adjusting things. The Bournemouth team selection and performance the outlier and equally the elephant in the room as he's got 3-4 players there he could have drawn confidence and momentum from to rotate with some of our players who are struggling but he's reluctant to. I have little sympathy.

[phoneticerror]

11 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Excuses.

 

He made plenty of subs in the first part of the season (had injury problems then too) and we saw games out / scored late goals as good as anyone in the division.

 

The difference back then was he wasn't afraid to replace almost anyone in the team, regularly we'd make subs on 55/60 mins as players had ran themselves in to the ground or we'd ran the opposition in to the ground and the subs came on and applied the pressure to break down their resistance.

 

What's abundantly clear right now is a) we've certain players badly out of form and yet he still won't rest them and b) we've other players who look jaded and he still won't rest them. 

 

Fans moan we've been found out by the opposition but I'm not so sure, more likely our squads fitness levels are not as strong as they were due to work load and our dominance is diluted without it.

 

This is on Enzo I'm afraid, the last month he's really struggled as a manager and is showing precious little signs of adjusting things. The Bournemouth team selection and performance the outlier and equally the elephant in the room as he's got 3-4 players there he could have drawn confidence and momentum from to rotate with some of our players who are struggling but he's reluctant to. I have little sympathy.

Pretty spot on

[Chelmofox]

50 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Excuses.

 

He made plenty of subs in the first part of the season (had injury problems then too) and we saw games out / scored late goals as good as anyone in the division.

 

The difference back then was he wasn't afraid to replace almost anyone in the team, regularly we'd make subs on 55/60 mins as players had ran themselves in to the ground or we'd ran the opposition in to the ground and the subs came on and applied the pressure to break down their resistance.

 

What's abundantly clear right now is a) we've certain players badly out of form and yet he still won't rest them and b) we've other players who look jaded and he still won't rest them. 

 

Fans moan we've been found out by the opposition but I'm not so sure, more likely our squads fitness levels are not as strong as they were due to work load and our dominance is diluted without it.

 

This is on Enzo I'm afraid, the last month he's really struggled as a manager and is showing precious little signs of adjusting things. The Bournemouth team selection and performance the outlier and equally the elephant in the room as he's got 3-4 players there he could have drawn confidence and momentum from to rotate with some of our players who are struggling but he's reluctant to. I have little sympathy.

If i recall you were very critical of Kasey replacing Mavididi in the Leeds game. Marcal is weak (and was bullied for most the Bournemouth game until they gave him some space) and in these physical games i genuinely don't think he is someone to bring on.

 

The areas where we seem to have enough quality to rotate is in central defence, which he isn't doing (unclear to me why Coady isn't being used), left back (JJ being used when the oppo has pacey attack), and the striker. The midfield has very little for him to play with now. When Ndidi was out, and he was having to start Akgun and KDH (which i am pretty sure he doesn't want to do) who comes on to change the game? There literally is no one.

 

The part that has frustrated me is where he could start Marcal / Akgun / Albrighton on the wing, and then bring on Mavididi / Fatawu. This is what he did with Fatawu in the Bournemouth game and it worked. But at the business end of the season i think he he is fearful of not starting his strongest team. I think that Mavididi and Fatawu are so strong defensively he really worries about not starting them.  I think the best trick he has up his sleeve is to start a slightly weakened lineup and then let our 2 best wingers rip the opposition up.

 

Agree this is on Enzo but i don't recall him making Brendan levels of excuses, and I understand why he is picking the team the way he is.  It amuses me seeing fans proposed Chelsea lineups where 'going strong' is picking the same lineup Enzo made for the Hull game. I am sure a slightly stronger version of what he did for Bournemouth would the be best.

[AKCJ]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Excuses.

 

He made plenty of subs in the first part of the season (had injury problems then too) and we saw games out / scored late goals as good as anyone in the division.

 

Just thought i'd look into that to make sure. Figures below for anyone else curious. I feel like it goes in peaks and troughs.

 

Coventry - 3

Huddersfield - 3

Cardiff - 3

Rotherham  - 3

Hull  - 4

Southampton - 5

Norwich - 5

Bristol - 4

Blackburn - 4

PNE - 5

Stoke - 5

Swansea - 3

Sunderland - 4

QPR - 4

Leeds - 2

Middlesbrough - 2

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 5

WBA - 2

Plymouth - 5

Milwall - 3

Birmingham - 4

Rotherham - 5

Ipswich - 3

Cardiff - 2

Huddersfield - 3

Coventry - 2

Ipswich - 3

Swansea - 5

Stoke - 5

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 3

Middlesbrough - 5

Leeds - 2

QPR - 2

Sunderland - 3

Hull - 2

 

 

of the games we've only made 2 subs we're  W2, D1, L5. One of the wins was a last kick of the game job as well. I think that points to him not trusting his bench to change a game.

Edited 11 March by AKCJ

[AKCJ]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

Just thought i'd look into that to make sure. Figures below for anyone else curious. I feel like it goes in peaks and troughs.

 

Coventry - 3

Huddersfield - 3

Cardiff - 3

Rotherham  - 3

Hull  - 4

Southampton - 5

Norwich - 5

Bristol - 4

Blackburn - 4

PNE - 5

Stoke - 5

Swansea - 3

Sunderland - 4

QPR - 4

Leeds - 2

Middlesbrough - 2

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 5

WBA - 2

Plymouth - 5

Milwall - 3

Birmingham - 4

Rotherham - 5

Ipswich - 3

Cardiff - 2

Huddersfield - 3

Coventry - 2

Ipswich - 3

Swansea - 5

Stoke - 5

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 3

Middlesbrough - 5

Leeds - 2

QPR - 2

Sunderland - 3

Leicester - 2

 

[SpacedX]

On 09/03/2024 at 17:22, LFox99 said:

I mean 

.

[Les-TA-Jon]

6 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Just thought i'd look into that to make sure. Figures below for anyone else curious. I feel like it goes in peaks and troughs.

 

Coventry - 3

Huddersfield - 3

Cardiff - 3

Rotherham  - 3

Hull  - 4

Southampton - 5

Norwich - 5

Bristol - 4

Blackburn - 4

PNE - 5

Stoke - 5

Swansea - 3

Sunderland - 4

QPR - 4

Leeds - 2

Middlesbrough - 2

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 5

WBA - 2

Plymouth - 5

Milwall - 3

Birmingham - 4

Rotherham - 5

Ipswich - 3

Cardiff - 2

Huddersfield - 3

Coventry - 2

Ipswich - 3

Swansea - 5

Stoke - 5

Watford - 4

Sheff Wed - 3

Middlesbrough - 5

Leeds - 2

QPR - 2

Sunderland - 3

Hull - 2

 

 

of the games we've only made 2 subs we're  W2, D1, L5. One of the wins was a last kick of the game job as well. I think that points to him not trusting his bench to change a game.

 

4 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

FFS looks like we've both had the same Monday morning....

 

 

Slight downward trend but nothing major. Averages 3.7 subs per game. 

 

Average minute of each sub:

• 1st sub 59mins
• 2nd sub 72mins
• 3rd sub 79mins
• 4th sub 80mins
• 5th sub 83mins

Number of subs:

• 0 subs 0/37
• 1 subs 0/37
• 2 subs 7/37 matches (19%)
• 3 subs 9/37 matches (24%)
• 4 subs 10/37 matches (27%)
• 5 subs 11/37 (30%)

Of course none of this accounts for non-tactical subs (injuries) or benchmarks it against any other team. 

 

Interestingly, the 7 matches where he only made 2 subs all occurred from matchday 15 onwards and the results were:

 

 

Earlier on in the season there was a run where he made 4 or 5 subs each game, from matchday 4 to 14. We won 10 out of 11 games. 

 

But of course, if you're already winning you're probably more likely to make more subs and feel you can risk it! 

 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Chelmofox said:

If i recall you were very critical of Kasey replacing Mavididi in the Leeds game. Marcal is weak (and was bullied for most the Bournemouth game until they gave him some space) and in these physical games i genuinely don't think he is someone to bring on.

 

The areas where we seem to have enough quality to rotate is in central defence, which he isn't doing (unclear to me why Coady isn't being used), left back (JJ being used when the oppo has pacey attack), and the striker. The midfield has very little for him to play with now. When Ndidi was out, and he was having to start Akgun and KDH (which i am pretty sure he doesn't want to do) who comes on to change the game? There literally is no one.

 

The part that has frustrated me is where he could start Marcal / Akgun / Albrighton on the wing, and then bring on Mavididi / Fatawu. This is what he did with Fatawu in the Bournemouth game and it worked. But at the business end of the season i think he he is fearful of not starting his strongest team. I think that Mavididi and Fatawu are so strong defensively he really worries about not starting them.  I think the best trick he has up his sleeve is to start a slightly weakened lineup and then let our 2 best wingers rip the opposition up.

 

Agree this is on Enzo but i don't recall him making Brendan levels of excuses, and I understand why he is picking the team the way he is.  It amuses me seeing fans proposed Chelsea lineups where 'going strong' is picking the same lineup Enzo made for the Hull game. I am sure a slightly stronger version of what he did for Bournemouth would the be best.

He ignored Yunus pretty much from the moment he'd scored vs Birmingham and Swansea up to the Bournemouth game and Ricardo's injury. Again, we finally got some end product from Yunus and then he ignored him at a time when KDH was looking jaded.

 

I grant you there's weaknesses in certain areas and I've been critical of the use of McAteer out wide, I'd always opt for Albrighton over Kasey and use him as a replacement for one of the 8's. 

 

 

[Chelmofox]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

He ignored Yunus pretty much from the moment he'd scored vs Birmingham and Swansea up to the Bournemouth game and Ricardo's injury. Again, we finally got some end product from Yunus and then he ignored him at a time when KDH was looking jaded.

 

I grant you there's weaknesses in certain areas and I've been critical of the use of McAteer out wide, I'd always opt for Albrighton over Kasey and use him as a replacement for one of the 8's. 

Yes true about Yunus but then he's played in 5 of the last 6 games but not in his best position (except for the Bournemouth game).

 

I think the real question behind this thread is 'why don't our substitutions change games'. 

[Ric Flair]

Just now, Chelmofox said:

Yes true about Yunus but then he's played in 5 of the last 6 games but not in his best position (except for the Bournemouth game).

 

I think the real question behind this thread is 'why don't our substitutions change games'. 

Yunus changed the game vs Swansea, we'd been pretty wasteful after KDH's early opener and then were toiling until Yunus came on and him and Daka seemingly caused some chaos and energy between them to get two quickfire goals.

 

It is a question though that has to be considered, certainly in 2024 where really only Vardy or Yunus has come on and made a difference in the league. But I'm of the opinion it's mindset in the team and manager, we previously wanted to apply the same intensity airy for 90 minutes and the subs came on to do that and we got the rewards. Seems to me we now look to take our foot off and coast to victory with a slender lead and are unable to control possession and/or pick teams off.

 

I hope Enzo does what he's done well already this season in the international breaks, and have a plan for the final 9 games. Mavididi, KDH, Justin, Faes and Winks have been off it for a while IMO and if he can't remedy their form then he needs to find alternatives.

[Headcase]

On 09/03/2024 at 17:38, Hammo said:

What and risk an immediate club ban?

The minute theres doubt "he walks" 

It was a nice little threat that worked, nobody seems to be asking the nitty gritty questions, and now hes untouchable.

[Chelmofox]

10 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Yunus changed the game vs Swansea, we'd been pretty wasteful after KDH's early opener and then were toiling until Yunus came on and him and Daka seemingly caused some chaos and energy between them to get two quickfire goals.

 

It is a question though that has to be considered, certainly in 2024 where really only Vardy or Yunus has come on and made a difference in the league. But I'm of the opinion it's mindset in the team and manager, we previously wanted to apply the same intensity airy for 90 minutes and the subs came on to do that and we got the rewards. Seems to me we now look to take our foot off and coast to victory with a slender lead and are unable to control possession and/or pick teams off.

 

I hope Enzo does what he's done well already this season in the international breaks, and have a plan for the final 9 games. Mavididi, KDH, Justin, Faes and Winks have been off it for a while IMO and if he can't remedy their form then he needs to find alternatives.

Enzo's stubbornness seems to come from the view that there needs to be 2 players in each position. I think Yunus was seen as the KDH alternative (and occasional winger) but the downside here is that because KDH is the stonewall first choice unless he is WAY off it, he is likely not getting subbed off. After losing Praet, RIccy, Ndidi and Casadei, Yunus gets shoehorned into that position, and he and KDH don't work well together. Most of our issues stem from being weak in midfield and then over relying on KDH / Winks. 

 

Fun fact, when Yunus hit that goal against Swansea my son had the sh1ts after a dodgy Nando's and we missed the moment whilst he was moaning in a concourse toilet. Maybe him having the trots brings Yunus good luck.

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Chelmofox said:

Enzo's stubbornness seems to come from the view that there needs to be 2 players in each position. I think Yunus was seen as the KDH alternative (and occasional winger) but the downside here is that because KDH is the stonewall first choice unless he is WAY off it, he is likely not getting subbed off. After losing Praet, RIccy, Ndidi and Casadei, Yunus gets shoehorned into that position, and he and KDH don't work well together. Most of our issues stem from being weak in midfield and then over relying on KDH / Winks. 

 

Fun fact, when Yunus hit that goal against Swansea my son had the sh1ts after a dodgy Nando's and we missed the moment whilst he was moaning in a concourse toilet. Maybe him having the trots brings Yunus good luck.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[LFox99]

5 hours ago, Chelmofox said:

Enzo's stubbornness seems to come from the view that there needs to be 2 players in each position. I think Yunus was seen as the KDH alternative (and occasional winger) but the downside here is that because KDH is the stonewall first choice unless he is WAY off it, he is likely not getting subbed off. After losing Praet, RIccy, Ndidi and Casadei, Yunus gets shoehorned into that position, and he and KDH don't work well together. Most of our issues stem from being weak in midfield and then over relying on KDH / Winks. 

 

Fun fact, when Yunus hit that goal against Swansea my son had the sh1ts after a dodgy Nando's and we missed the moment whilst he was moaning in a concourse toilet. Maybe him having the trots brings Yunus good luck.

well then you know what to do

get down to your local pharmacy on March 17 and get a couple laxatives 

[Chelmofox]

Just now, LFox99 said:

well then you know what to do

get down to your local pharmacy on March 17 and get a couple laxatives 

Or ask for the next Nando's to be 'medium rare'. 

[SebbyFlyteFox89]

6 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Yunus changed the game vs Swansea, we'd been pretty wasteful after KDH's early opener and then were toiling until Yunus came on and him and Daka seemingly caused some chaos and energy between them to get two quickfire goals.

 

It is a question though that has to be considered, certainly in 2024 where really only Vardy or Yunus has come on and made a difference in the league. But I'm of the opinion it's mindset in the team and manager, we previously wanted to apply the same intensity airy for 90 minutes and the subs came on to do that and we got the rewards. Seems to me we now look to take our foot off and coast to victory with a slender lead and are unable to control possession and/or pick teams off.

 

I hope Enzo does what he's done well already this season in the international breaks, and have a plan for the final 9 games. Mavididi, KDH, Justin, Faes and Winks have been off it for a while IMO and if he can't remedy their form then he needs to find alternatives.

Do you think partly the reason for their loss of form is because of tiredness to KDH, Winks, and Mavididi?
Thankfully the break has come at the perfect time for all of those guys a rest.
Let's face it we have nobody who can do Winks and KDH's roles and Mav has nobody to compete with, Wanya isn't good enough and there's nobody to drive him to earn that spot.
No disrespect to Albrighton because he is a legend, but he's not competing for that spot week in and week out. 
It's clear Enzo doesn't trust his bench because there's a distinct lack of quality in it. Enzo is working with the squad he's been given but they're not HIS squad per se. 
 

[Suzie the Fox]

22 minutes ago, SebbyFlyteFox89 said:

Do you think partly the reason for their loss of form is because of tiredness to KDH, Winks, and Mavididi?
Thankfully the break has come at the perfect time for all of those guys a rest.
Let's face it we have nobody who can do Winks and KDH's roles and Mav has nobody to compete with, Wanya isn't good enough and there's nobody to drive him to earn that spot.
No disrespect to Albrighton because he is a legend, but he's not competing for that spot week in and week out. 
It's clear Enzo doesn't trust his bench because there's a distinct lack of quality in it. Enzo is working with the squad he's been given but they're not HIS squad per se. 
 

I certainly think the decline in form is down to tiredness, (not just the physical side) mental fatigue at this level can be massive. Really hope the break can give a much needed rest and we come back with all guns blazing.

 

 Regarding Albrighton you are right he isnt competing for a spot now, but he could come on as a sub in certain games and make a difference. Just having an older, more experience player on the pitch might have made a difference in games where we conceded late on and lost out on 3 points. 

[Death by Football]

It seems to me that because Enzo is completely fixed on one system the subs he makes are always like for like. As injuries and fatigue kick in then these like for like subs are always going to weaken the team. You’re subbing on an inferior player to do the same job. 
He doesn’t use the bench to ask questions of the opposition (and I don’t mean stick the big lad up front and hit it long).