Stop the LCFC Loyalty Tax - UFS statement

[Wolfox]

I heard that chant go up at 25 mins…. It wasn’t a ‘full throated’  chant….  But loud enough to be heard…

 

I’m not personally bothered as I prefer it on my phone, but I am bothered that others are bothered (if that makes sense?!)

[FOXSE]

I don't really know what has been discussed between the supporters groups and the club: but the discussion about the card itself, and the £25 charge, isnt very helpful. 

 

I would like to see the numbers, but my guess is there are very few people who want a physical card, just because its a card. And most people have smart phones, so there will be a small minority of supporters who need to have a card.

 

So it's useful to have the analysis of what fans functionally get from the card.

 

On the other side, the club may mention the environmental factors of the physical card, but again this isn't really to the point, and leads, correctly to fans calling out environmental hypocrisy. Whilst calling this out is accurate, it doesn't really lead to a resolution and this is the clubs fault for introducing justifications that arent really to the point.

 

The whole point about the £25 charge isn't about raising revenue for the club: they have to set it at a value to be dissuasive, or it won't dissuade people from having a physical ticket! So attacking the club on this cost isn't really the point and allows the club to deliver a 'gotcha' by saying 'we are giving the money to charity'. The Club would ideally raise £0 from the charge, as that would mean everyone has gone to digital cards: which is the clubs objective.

 

This is really about what the club functionally don't like, and can't control, about physical cards, and do like about the digital card. And what the fans functionally like about having the physical card.

 

What fans like about a physical card? 

 

1. If you can't go, you can give it to someone else (either at face value, or at a profit)

 

2. Physical souvenir

 

3. People who dont/can't have smart phones, or need a physical card for some practical reason.

 

Any others? I can think of any, but that's not to say there aren't other valid ones. 

 

What the club want

1. To know the identity of every person in every seat in the stadium on a match day.

 

The reasons the club might want to know this is: A)highlight anyone who causes trouble,

B)prevent people entering the stadium who are trouble makers (who have already have a Banning order),

C) easier targeted marketing.

 

 

2. Reduce admin costs

Having everything electronic will be cheaper to manage and administer.

 

again, there may be others...

 

So the negotiations shouldn't be around the price of the card, it should be how can we retain the features fans want from the physical card whilst also achieving what the club wants to achieve with going digital. There will always be some exceptional reason some fans will need to have a physical card, so the club should accommodate that, but the number should be small.

 

This is the basis the discussion must be on, or this will just be a non-productive back and forth around emotive issues which do not address the underlying fundamentals or the issues.

 

How can we retain the functionality and convenience of a physical season ticket, but with it being a digital ticket? This has to be the basis of the discussion.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[Snik-Snok]

12 minutes ago, FOXSE said:

I don't really know what has been discussed between the supporters groups and the club: but the discussion about the card itself, and the £25 charge, isnt very helpful. 

 

I would like to see the numbers, but my guess is there are very few people who want a physical card, just because its a card. And most people have smart phones, so there will be a small minority of supporters who need to have a card.

 

So it's useful to have the analysis of what fans functionally get from the card.

 

On the other side, the club may mention the environmental factors of the physical card, but again this isn't really to the point, and leads, correctly to fans calling out environmental hypocrisy. Whilst calling this out is accurate, it doesn't really lead to a resolution and this is the clubs fault for introducing justifications that arent really to the point.

 

The whole point about the £25 charge isn't about raising revenue for the club: they have to set it at a value to be dissuasive, or it won't dissuade people from having a physical ticket! So attacking the club on this cost isn't really the point and allows the club to deliver a 'gotcha' by saying 'we are giving the money to charity'. The Club would ideally raise £0 from the charge, as that would mean everyone has gone to digital cards: which is the clubs objective.

 

This is really about what the club functionally don't like, and can't control, about physical cards, and do like about the digital card. And what the fans functionally like about having the physical card.

 

What fans like about a physical card? 

 

1. If you can't go, you can give it to someone else (either at face value, or at a profit)

 

2. Physical souvenir

 

3. People who dont/can't have smart phones, or need a physical card for some practical reason.

 

Any others? I can think of any, but that's not to say there aren't other valid ones. 

 

What the club want

1. To know the identity of every person in every seat in the stadium on a match day.

 

The reasons the club might want to know this is: A)highlight anyone who causes trouble,

B)prevent people entering the stadium who are trouble makers (who have already have a Banning order),

C) easier targeted marketing.

 

 

2. Reduce admin costs

Having everything electronic will be cheaper to manage and administer.

 

again, there may be others...

 

So the negotiations shouldn't be around the price of the card, it should be how can we retain the features fans want from the physical card whilst also achieving what the club wants to achieve with going digital. There will always be some exceptional reason some fans will need to have a physical card, so the club should accommodate that, but the number should be small.

 

This is the basis the discussion must be on, or this will just be a non-productive back and forth around emotive issues which do not address the underlying fundamentals or the issues.

 

How can we retain the functionality and convenience of a physical season ticket, but with it being a digital ticket? This has to be the basis of the discussion.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

What the fans want: A method of entry that works. In 3 decades of having a card, it's never failed. 3 times I've had to use a digital ticket, twice it worked, once it didn't. I don't want to have to be forced to arrive an hour before kick off to give me time to join the queue when it fails.

 

What the club want: to prevent people giving their ticket to friends and family (something that's always happened and is facilitated most clubs) when they can't go, forcing them to use the resale option (which by the way think should be boycotted), so make an extra markup on the seat.

Edited 5 May by Snik-Snok

[FOXSE]

1 minute ago, Snik-Snok said:

What the fans want: A method of entry that works. In 3 decades of having a card, it's never failed. 3 times I've had to use a digital ticket, twice it worked, once it didn't. I don't want to have to be forced to arrive an hour before kick off to give me time to join the queue when it fails.

 

What the club want: to prevent people giving their ticket to friends and family (something that's always happened and is facilitated most clubs) when they can't go, forcing them to use the resale option (which by the way think should be boycotted), so make an extra markup on the seat.

I think this is already a better position to base discussions on!

[davieG]

21 minutes ago, FOXSE said:

What the club want

1. To know the identity of every person in every seat in the stadium on a match day.

Surely they know the owner of each card as you enter, yes they can be passed on but if that proves problematic then they know who to punish. Besides they surely know that fans can and are passing on the digital passes.

 

You missed out that no other club is taking such a draconian approach to introducing phone entry, most of them seem to be using the positive version of incentivising buy offering inducements and rewards for changing. They're offering a dual system of card and phone to enable fans to familiarise themselves with the system. Even the clubs approach to allowing passing on to family and friends is significantly poorer compared to most clubs

 

Overall a hearts and minds approach rather than what comes across as 'fans' who needs them?

[FOXSE]

2 minutes ago, davieG said:

Surely they know the owner of each card as you enter, yes they can be passed on but if that proves problematic then they know who to punish. Besides they surely know that fans can and are passing on the digital passes.

 

You missed out that no other club is taking such a draconian approach to introducing phone entry, most of them seem to be using the positive version of incentivising buy offering inducements and rewards for changing. They're offering a dual system of card and phone to enable fans to familiarise themselves with the system. Even the clubs approach to allowing passing on to family and friends is significantly poorer compared to most clubs

 

Overall a hearts and minds approach rather than what comes across as 'fans' who needs them?

Some good points here.... I think it is easier to share cards than digital passes though.

 

Regarding other clubs approaches, I think it's a really important point. I think some analysis was done on this that showed we are an outlier.

 

I think the hearts and minds approach is a good way of looking at it, but I really think as a group it's better to have the debate with the club about the functionality the fans want to retain on the context of a digital ticket, rather than focusing on the £25 aspect.

[davieG]

12 minutes ago, FOXSE said:

Some good points here.... I think it is easier to share cards than digital passes though.

 

Regarding other clubs approaches, I think it's a really important point. I think some analysis was done on this that showed we are an outlier.

 

I think the hearts and minds approach is a good way of looking at it, but I really think as a group it's better to have the debate with the club about the functionality the fans want to retain on the context of a digital ticket, rather than focusing on the £25 aspect.

They've had debates with the club and been shunned and dismissed at both meetings and left them with a 'We're not backing down' 

What would you suggest the 3 fans groups should do next?

[LaCiudad]

When do we start focusing on the root cause of the issues in football: The bushes model of the Premier League and how it's set up, and the actions of the EFL?

[FOXSE]

16 minutes ago, davieG said:

They've had debates with the club and been shunned and dismissed at both meetings and left them with a 'We're not backing down' 

What would you suggest the 3 fans groups should do next?

I am not sure what the actual ask was. What I would say is framing the discussion on the functionality of the digital ticket would be more productive than focusing on the £25 pound charge. 

 

Then, when armed with fan requirements, it would be possible to compare on the offer of other clubs.

 

For example, for season ticket holders at Liverpool, there is unlimited times a match tickets can be put up for sale, or Forwarded on to family and friends in a season. Leicester are offering 5 resale and 5 forwarding a season. Why is this different? And would this be a major help in winning over fans?

 

Liverpool have a cut off date that you have to have your family and friends list finalised to by the start of the season, which is a bit restrictive. But I guess that would help control ticket touting?

 

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/tickets/ticket-forwarding-and-ticket-exchange-faq-s#:~:text=One hour before kick-off,of 3 times per game.