The South's pathetic contribution to the industrial heritage of England

[art924]

I was having a conversation with my old man the other week about the decline of industry.

It occurred to me that almost every town in the North and the Midlands can be instantly associated with one or more major industry from over the years. For example: Leicester + hosiery / shoes, Derby + train building / textiles, Manchester and other towns in the North West + cotton mills, Sheffield + steel, various places + coal, etc. etc.

By the same token, with the small exception of the odd shipbuilding town such as Chatham, there are no places in the South of England with which I could make the same connection.

Where the frig did these Southerners work in the olden days? They can't all have been wanking off while the North and Midlands were busy making stuff?

Er London had the largest port in the World. London's growth and wealth from the 1st century onwards was primarily due to the port. Shipyards existed in the East End. Besides that there was plenty of industry in the city itself as well like Chemical manufacture, watch and tool making etc. The port was decimated from the late 60s and was pretty much all gone by the late 70s a spectacular turnaround. Of course regeneration came in the form of the docklands into a financial hub a sort of overflow of the City of London. But all of the blue collar jobs had mostly gone. A reason why working class Londoners largely left the city and immigrants replaced them.

Felixstowe is Britain's largest container port. Swindon has a large Honda plant. Luton is a northern industrial town stuck in the south. Places like Bristol, Portsmouth, Southampton and Plymouth have always had industry in one form or another.The problem with British manufacturing is that it just didn't change with the times. Thatchers cuthroat policies didn't help but neither did the self interest of the trade unions. Germany still has plenty of old school manufacturing going on because they saw how the world was changing and adapted divisified and overcame. The products they make have a good name which counts for a lot.

Intertesting fact is that now if the South East of England was a seperate country it would rank 18th on the GDP ahead of Indonesia and just behind Turkey. Indeed the rather odious former Scum editor Kelvin Mackenzie has called for the south east to breakaway so it doesn't have to subsidise the rest of the country any more. The north/south gap seems to be widening all the time. I have no axe to grind against either region. London and with it the south east has always dominated the UK economically especially on the last 30 years or so. It's one of the most important financial trading centres in the whole world which helps the UK still call itself a 1st world country. It's sad that industrial decline hit northern towns and cities hard, that there are no UK owned companies making anything these days. Education and investment in new hi tech companies might help to bring new skilled jobs in and decent wages but who knows?? Most of the problems with attracting inward investment is caused by the lack of investment in the communications and transport infrastructure, most of that is geared to London and the south-east. HS2 will only extend the range of London commuters, not improve the infrastructure in the rest of the country. The present government doesn't care about anywhere north as it's wins few votes there so there unlikely to be investing in the long term.

[Deucalion]

While it would be a big hit financially for the rest of the country to lose the South East, it would mean that economic policy in the rest of the country could encourage growth.

In the 80s there was the ridiculous situation of high interest rates for the whole country because the South and it's monopoly money industries threatened to overheat, while areas like the North East were still in recession.

This obviously just stamped out growth in the rest of the country.

Let them go I say.

[Charl91]

To those saying 3D printing's too expensive/cumbersome:

That's how new inventions work. All members of this forum should have seen in their lifetime some example of a new gizmo coming out and being stupidly costly before becoming both much more affordable and efficient (computers, memory cards, external hard drives, cameras, cars, printers of the non-3D variety, televisions, telephones, etc ad infinitum).

3D printers will be everywhere a very short period from now in absolute terms

And how are you justifying that? I assume you've been listening to the media hype, because I really doubt that they will be everywhere in the not too distant future, and most people in the industry agree.

3D printing/Rapid Prototyping is not as 'new' as the media makes out, nor is it at useful and efficient. There was an interesting article in TCT the other day (3D printing magazine) explaining how the media has basically got the completely wrong idea about 3D printing, partly because they think it is a new revolutionary technology (it isn't - it's a lot of different technologys, some of which have been around for ages) and partly because they can come up with 'catchy' stories about all the new stuff we do. (This online article also gives a good idea http://www.tctmagazine.com/blogs/guest-column/the-3d-printing-reality-distortion-field/).

People seem to think you can set up a machine and just print something off, not realising that not only does it take a while to set up the machine, but most items that are produced need hours of post processing to get to even an acceptable standard (and even then the standard would be considered shoddy by most expectations). There's a high failure of prints and the machines that print in colour have difficulty even making the whole model the same colour, let alone doing different colours.

Even if it one day becomes more efficient (which, it should do, but I can't see it happening drastically too soon), it's unlikely to become the revolutionary technological phenomenon that the media would like. It's a process that will be pretty good for doing certain specific things, nothing more.

[MooseBreath]

It should be able to make decent spatulas soon though? Spoons, rulers, clothes pegs, anything simple in design and consistant in material?

[MC Prussian]

What hinders people in Britain to re-discover and re-implement the industries that once existed? I see the pricing issue, but is government blocking attempts by coming up with a plethora of unjustified regulations?

I can't see it all getting back to where it once was, but surely there must be space and talent enough to specialize in certain areas.

For instance, textile manufacturing has been in steady decline over here as well, yet Swiss lace is very sought after in America, Asia and Africa these days.

[Charl91]

It should be able to make decent spatulas soon though? Spoons, rulers, clothes pegs, anything simple in design and consistant in material?

Yes, basically! Though at current prices, they'd be bloody expensive spatulas

[MooseBreath]

Yes, basically! Though at current prices, they'd be bloody expensive spatulas

There's a lot of things like that being mass produced at the moment. Even if we're a long way off having a 3d printer in every home, do you think its conceivable that in the relatively short term, you might get shops setting up with a 3D printer, and customers going in with their spatula design on a memory stick and having it printed off?

[Finnegan]

There's a lot of things like that being mass produced at the moment. Even if we're a long way off having a 3d printer in every home, do you think its conceivable that in the relatively short term, you might get shops setting up with a 3D printer, and customers going in with their spatula design on a memory stick and having it printed off?

That'd be ridiculously niche though if they did. Only a handful of people (likely all living in Putney, Streatham, Muswell Hill or Chelsea & Kensington!) are going to give enough of a crap aboutmenial household items that they'd pay over market value to have their own custom designed one.

[21st Century Fox]

That'd be ridiculously niche though if they did. Only a handful of people (likely all living in Putney, Streatham, Muswell Hill or Chelsea & Kensington!) are going to give enough of a crap aboutmenial household items that they'd pay over market value to have their own custom designed one.

I thought that, I could imagine that sort of scenario working in high end kitchenware shops, where you could "print off" Philippe Starck's latest spatula design but your average shopper probably wouldn't have the 'time', forethought or care. When the technology is at its absolute cheapest, I could see some kind of instant, multiple choice type vending machines in places like Ikea.

[surrifox]

surely the car industry is a model for what we should be doing manufacturing-wise . Make high quality , technologically advanced, reliable vehicles (goods) that people not only want to buy but will pay premium prices for. The UK is the HQ for most of the worlds car makers research facilities because it's something we are good at and earns a lot of foreign currency , the fact that all our car makers are owned by foreign companies does not detract from the value added here

[Charl91]

There's a lot of things like that being mass produced at the moment. Even if we're a long way off having a 3d printer in every home, do you think its conceivable that in the relatively short term, you might get shops setting up with a 3D printer, and customers going in with their spatula design on a memory stick and having it printed off?

Yes and no. Technically that's what the company I work for does - it's a rapid prototyping company, so people send us their designs in CAD (and we do get things like spatulas/brush handles and the like fairly often) and we print them.

However, if you mean would there be a highstreet business model where you could you quickly pop to the shops and get one printed same day, then I can't see that happening with the machines we have at the moment, simply because of time and expense. Even something like a spatula would probably take a few hours to print, and then there would be another hour or so involved in post processing the thing (mainly cleaning off the support material - the models don't come out ready to go like people think), and some prints can take up to 20 hours to do, so you can imagine with a few orders the queue would build up pretty quickly. The chance of getting something back on the same day is very unlikely.

It's also probably too expensive/specialised for the average person in the street; firstly you'l have to either designed the thing in CAD yourself or pay a CAD engineer to do it for you. Then the company will have to charge a premium price, since they have to factor in the cost of the material + support material, the running time of the machine (because while this £30k + machine is being used for a couple of hours to print your spatula/model it's probably not printing anything else), the man hours in post processing aswell as being able to earn back the cost of the machines/make a profit for the company. For a working spatula at the moment, you'd probably be talking a couple of hundred quid at least.

I can only see 3D printing getting bigger, and I'd say it's very possible that there will be rapid prototyping companys on the highstreet in the future where you can just pop in with your designs. But you'd most likely still be looking at a 3-5 day waiting period to get your order. Not unless there is massive advances in the technology & reduction in costs.

I thought that, I could imagine that sort of scenario working in high end kitchenware shops, where you could "print off" Philippe Starck's latest spatula design but your average shopper probably wouldn't have the 'time', forethought or care. When the technology is at its absolute cheapest, I could see some kind of instant, multiple choice type vending machines in places like Ikea.

Even cost aside, the technology would have to change massively for something like that to happen. Like I said above, print times for small things can be a couple of hours. Also, models come out the machine like this.....

The one on the left is how it comes out the machine, with the support material on, which has to be manually cleaned off (normally first with a water jet and then put in a tank of acid). You can't really print without support but at the same time I can't really imagine how you would automate the process.

Sorry for hijacking the thread!!

[Carl the Llama]

And how are you justifying that? I assume you've been listening to the media hype, because I really doubt that they will be everywhere in the not too distant future, and most people in the industry agree.

3D printing/Rapid Prototyping is not as 'new' as the media makes out, nor is it at useful and efficient. There was an interesting article in TCT the other day (3D printing magazine) explaining how the media has basically got the completely wrong idea about 3D printing, partly because they think it is a new revolutionary technology (it isn't - it's a lot of different technologys, some of which have been around for ages) and partly because they can come up with 'catchy' stories about all the new stuff we do. (This online article also gives a good idea http://www.tctmagazi...stortion-field/).

People seem to think you can set up a machine and just print something off, not realising that not only does it take a while to set up the machine, but most items that are produced need hours of post processing to get to even an acceptable standard (and even then the standard would be considered shoddy by most expectations). There's a high failure of prints and the machines that print in colour have difficulty even making the whole model the same colour, let alone doing different colours.

Even if it one day becomes more efficient (which, it should do, but I can't see it happening drastically too soon), it's unlikely to become the revolutionary technological phenomenon that the media would like. It's a process that will be pretty good for doing certain specific things, nothing more.

I was very careful about my phrasing "absolute terms" because, well, obviously 3D printing isn't a mere few years from being a commonplace thing.

I give you the Z1 Computer:

As the German words hanging above it imply, this is the first ever computer of the sort that went on to eventually become what we now have in pretty much every household.

The people of 1936 probably thought such monstrosities would never become efficient or practical enough for widespread usage, but somewhere along the line, innovations in components that make up the whole machine (resistors, silicon chips and the like) meant that an unexpected transformation of the technology took place, making it more efficient and affordable. 3D printing hasn't had its silicon chip moment yet, but I wouldn't bet against a similar thing happening in the next 50 odd years.

[Charl91]

I was very careful about my phrasing "absolute terms" because, well, obviously 3D printing isn't a mere few years from being a commonplace thing.

3D printing hasn't had its silicon chip moment yet, but I wouldn't bet against a similar thing happening in the next 50 odd years.

Ok, in the next 50 years, it may possibly happen, I agree - you never know what technological advancements will happen in that space of time! I misunderstood your point (since I haven't come across the phrase "absolute terms" before) I thought you were implying in the next couple of years!

[Deucalion]

There is one ingredient which guarantees a new technology will be successful...

porn!

Find an application which marries porn to 3-D printers and the money to develop them will be flowing in!!

[The Doctor]

There is one ingredient which guarantees a new technology will be successful...

porn!

Find an application which marries porn to 3-D printers and the money to develop them will be flowing in!!

In volatile market, only stable investment is porn!

[Deucalion]

Conclusive proof all mainstream media outlets checkout Foxestalk.*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934564

* Not conclusive proof.

[MC Prussian]

In the end, it's all about finding market-worthy product ideas, making sure they cut the grade and establishing sustainable companies that offer clever solutions for your everyday life.

Also, the government is called to action - it's important to offer attractive grounds for people who want to create new business, instead of putting obstacles in their way.

Also, does the UK have a bi-modular educational system? Over here, we're proud of being able to offer kids an alternative to the regular education, by hosting schools that are close to the manual labour market.

Young adults have the chance/option to learn a trade via schooling and participating in placement programs with local businesses. And after three to four years, they're well-trained enough to either stick with the company they've done their apprenticeship with or move on to another.

And these people are still very much sought after.

And all of this doesn't have to take place in London.

It can happen anywhere in the UK - I do hope that with better train connections, less people are lured away to the capital and are able to claim back their hometown or current area of living for working purposes.

[Webbo]

Also, does the UK have a bi-modular educational system? Over here, we're proud of being able to offer kids an alternative to the regular education, by hosting schools that are close to the manual labour market.

Young adults have the chance/option to learn a trade via schooling and participating in placement programs with local businesses.

In theory . My youngest has learning difficulties so at the start of this school year she was sent to Brooksby College to learn animal care. All she did for 3 months was to muck out the animals. Fair enough if it's half a day mucking out half a day learning something useful or 2 months mucking out and then moving on to something more useful, but no all she did was muck out , learning nothing. We pulled out after Christmas as she wasn't learning anything.

The school was also running a hairdressing course that she applied to get on but it seems that only the disruptive kids get to go on that, the school keep telling us that there isn't a place for her.

It appears to us that these schemes are just a way to pass the buck on some of the harder to teach cases on to some one else.

[Zingari]

In the end, it's all about finding market-worthy product ideas, making sure they cut the grade and establishing sustainable companies that offer clever solutions for your everyday life.

Also, the government is called to action - it's important to offer attractive grounds for people who want to create new business, instead of putting obstacles in their way.

Also, does the UK have a bi-modular educational system? Over here, we're proud of being able to offer kids an alternative to the regular education, by hosting schools that are close to the manual labour market.

Young adults have the chance/option to learn a trade via schooling and participating in placement programs with local businesses. And after three to four years, they're well-trained enough to either stick with the company they've done their apprenticeship with or move on to another.

And these people are still very much sought after.

And all of this doesn't have to take place in London.

It can happen anywhere in the UK - I do hope that with better train connections, less people are lured away to the capital and are able to claim back their hometown or current area of living for working purposes.

Sounds good and i'm fairly sure we had a not too dissimilar system here once.

Our government won't do owt sensible like this though.

[Jon the Hat]

Sounds good and i'm fairly sure we had a not too dissimilar system here once.

Our government won't do owt sensible like this though.

The government are doing all of the above. And cutting corporation tax.

Re Webbo's comment, it seems to me that every goo idea in this country these days gets picked apart by lobbying groups / unions who fuel the media, so it is impossible to come up with any change which doesn;t result in someone pointing out everything they dont like, followed by a media and political shit storm. "Those idiot politicians!!" shout the teaching unions, "they dont know what they are doing". They know exactly what they are doing, you just dont like it becasue change makes you scared, and makes yoru members reaslise you have been pissing about for years.

[leicsmac]

The government are doing all of the above. And cutting corporation tax.

Re Webbo's comment, it seems to me that every goo idea in this country these days gets picked apart by lobbying groups / unions who fuel the media, so it is impossible to come up with any change which doesn;t result in someone pointing out everything they dont like, followed by a media and political shit storm. "Those idiot politicians!!" shout the teaching unions, "they dont know what they are doing". They know exactly what they are doing, you just dont like it becasue change makes you scared, and makes yoru members reaslise you have been pissing about for years.

Sorry Jon, but as an ex-teacher the last part of your comment here just flat out pisses me off.

Teachers get on with the job they're trying to do, hamstrung by 'idiot politicians' who change the rules and regulations every few years in the name of the next 'new thing', which most of the time in fact has no effect on the most important thing: helping the students learn. All the teachers I know work damned hard both in and out of school, for zero appreciation from the public who through biased media reports think they're a bunch of incompetents. Which is so far from the truth it couldn't be seen with the Hubble Space Telescope on a really clear day.

God only knows why people still go into teaching when the lack of due respect for their profession has been eroded (by total know-nothings) so much. It makes me sick to the fvcking stomach.

Get more staff in to reduce class sizes and diversity of learning options for students, encourage respect for teachers in society, and give a little trust!

Rant over. Nothing personal, but bad-mouthing teachers is my beserk button.

Do agree with the idea that the Internet has made every political decision a talking shop. But the leading media opinion in this country (newspaper anyway) is decidedly right wing, not left.

[notnow john]

In theory . My youngest has learning difficulties so at the start of this school year she was sent to Brooksby College to learn animal care. All she did for 3 months was to muck out the animals. Fair enough if it's half a day mucking out half a day learning something useful or 2 months mucking out and then moving on to something more useful, but no all she did was muck out , learning nothing. We pulled out after Christmas as she wasn't learning anything.

The school was also running a hairdressing course that she applied to get on but it seems that only the disruptive kids get to go on that, the school keep telling us that there isn't a place for her.

It appears to us that these schemes are just a way to pass the buck on some of the harder to teach cases on to some one else.

That must be so frustrating. Brooksby used to have a excellent reputation, especially for agriculture and livestock courses.

Sounds like they've descended into the box ticking culture.

[act smiley]

There is one ingredient which guarantees a new technology will be successful...

porn!

Find an application which marries porn to 3-D printers and the money to develop them will be flowing in!!

Hmm. Download-your-own dildos, for those who don't want Amazon to have that much personal info about their shopping habits?

I just can't see how to effectively monetise it, though, as that'll be people who don't want to give out their details as the main target audience. Adverts, perhaps?

I give you the Z1 Computer:

Hmm, dunno - It has a few very important firsts (stored program), but its hardly something you can point at and say "this is the first" (unless you're German, I guess), as Its not really Turing complete and its a bit of a dead end.

The first one that ticks all the possible boxes (electronic, stored program, Turing complete, von Neumann architecture) is the Manchester Baby.

[sphericalfox]

It's been a long while since I've seen the movie, so not sure what it has to do with industrial prowess.

However, I'd say this musical number probably did something on some level. It's got depth:

[davieG]

Many apprenticeships had/have become cheap labour.

Having been an engineering apprentice (5 years) I've seen the time span for them gradually reduced to a point where they have become virtually worthless.

In my last two jobs I was fortunate to be given responsibility for re-introducing engineering/construction apprentices and I'm very proud of the fact that they were 4 years long for O level trainees and included 4 years of day release and on the job training. It was a constant battle with the Senior Management, Middle Management and Team Leaders to ensure they got the proper opportunities. I regularly had to 'intervene' to stop them becoming gofors or photocopying clerks.

I had very few failures and most when on to become valuable Technicians with some continuing the Education up to degree level and becoming Qualified Engineers.

Where there's will there's a way provided governments keep their noses out and stop changing the qualifications something with which i suffered and it took me years to overcome it.