Alf Bentley Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 I am way too young to properly remember even John Major, but I recognize the massive impact Thatcher had on the country. I feel taking back the Falklands was very much a plus point on her half, but obviously the Armed Forces should take most of the credit. As an 18 year old just entering the world of work I cannot help but see the Unions (or their leaders) as egocentric, time wasting strike monkeys. I feel sorry for the policemen, firefighters and teachers who's live are being ruined by the Tory's but certainly not the people who run the unions, so my view on the miners strike is slightly blurred. To be honest I don't even know what the poll tax was but I think the selling of council houses was a great shout. My entire, working class family hates her and her party, but my opinion of her is probably more positive than negative.... Fragmented responses to Sharpe's Fox.... - Falklands: Deucalion has already addressed how Thatcher's cuts encouraged the vile Argentine dictatorship to invade the Falklands; the invasion was unacceptable as it was against the will of the 2000 inhabitants (even though that equates to a small village and the undersea mineral rights may have loomed larger in some calculations). But there were alternatives (UN, diplomacy etc.). Instead, using her undoubted political instinct, Thatcher seized the moment for reflected patriotic glory and an electoral landslide (might've happened anyway), at a time when she was very unpopular due to economic chaos/mass unemployment (4m?!), despite Labour being in disarray. The patriotic rescue (right outcome short-term; wrong method) left about 250 British troops dead, plus about 700 Argentine conscripts - not Argentine dictators like Galtieri, but mainly teenagers/young men (Argentine Sharpe's Foxes, if you like) conscripted into the forces, blown up and/or drowned in the cold waters of the South Atlantic, outside a self-imposed exclusion zone...and Thatcher said "Rejoice!" - Some union leaders are indeed "egotistic" and/or "time-wasting" and/or "strike monkeys" (and Thatcher undoubtedly benefited from the selfish misconduct of some unions in the 1970s)...so join the union and vote the wrong'uns out!! I'd also suggest that you find out a bit about unions, the positive and the negative (easily done on-line). Suffice to say that unions and collective organisation brought many of the rights/advantages that we enjoy today (sometimes through conflict), very few were donated out of the kind benevolence of employers' hearts....unionised workers earn more and have better rights than non-unionised workers. - As an aside, I don't know the percentages, but I think the vast majority of teachers and firefighters are union members - Poll tax was like the Council Tax (local tax to fund council services); the difference was that there were no property bands, as with the Council Tax (where you gradually pay more towards local services, according to your house size - i.e wealth); under the Poll Tax, a multi-millionaire in a mansion paid the same as someone on a poverty wage in a bedsit. - The miners' strike is a difficult one: most of the mines would have gradually closed down due to international competition, but Thatcher made no effort to have any sort of transition, where alternative employment might be introduced for (very concentrated) communities dependent on mining - they were "the enemy within", to be destroyed (partly in revenge for the miners having helped to bring down the 1974 Tory government); I was queasy about Scargill (miners' union leader) at the time and admire him even less with hindsight...though didn't the rival, anti-strike miners' union leader (Neil Greatrex) go to prison for stealing thousands from old people's homes or something?!? Thatcher wanted to absolutely crush parts of this country; unfortunately, Scargill (an ass leading lions) ultimately helped her to achieve her ambition....though he was proved right about her aim - to close down coal mining (a major British industry until the 1980s) - Despite opposing it at the time, I'd have to admit that selling council houses proved to be a good Thatcher policy...what was then very bad indeed was that, for ideological reasons (the "free market" God!), the Tories gradually prevented councils spending the proceeds on building new council houses for those who couldn't afford to buy, contributing to a housing crisis/bubble that contributed to the current collapse and left millions dependent on exploitative buy-to-let private landlords. Hope that helps, Sharpe's Fox! A particular viewpoint, obviously, and a left-inclined one (though I'd like to think, not as black-and-white as some views on left & right). Up to you whether you're interested enough to find out about it, though a good time to start learning, age 18....and a good time, too, given the death of the most significant PM since Churchill (WW2) and Attlee (1945-50)
Jordan Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 I understand how deeply many resent Thatcher. I don't need to add any more to the criticism she has received here except to say she would her and her acolytes would never have had my votes. That said, I find some of the gloating and mocking going on in this thread bizarre and sad. It would be one thing that came from Irish republican militants were celebrating upon succeeding in an assassination attempt, or from a legion of proletarian rebels that had just toppled Thatcher's government after a glorious revolution (disclaimer: I'm not advocating either). But it's another thing entirely to go have a party and/or tease Thatcher because she just died in her old age, over two decades after being replaced as PM. Thatcher lived to be 87, and while she did endure some suffering in her latter years, she still lived a long life and died a normal death for someone her age. Big fúcking deal. Just wish her good riddance and get on with your lives.
Uncle Albert Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 Liverpool fans won't stay quiet for the minutes silence either I don't think from what I'm reading on Twitter, because of these suspicions it's to respect both Thatcher and the 96 then Liverpool fans are just going to sing "Justice for the 96" throughout the one minute, good idea as well.
absolutelegend Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 The way to get rid of politicians who aren't doing a good job is to vote them out. The time for celebrating would have been when this happened, not on the death of somebody who hadn't been active in politics for many years. People doing so must realise this will cause friction at a time when peoples feelings are running high, which for me is the reason that this is inappropriate, and most importantly achieves nothing but bad blood between people.
ozleicester Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 Fragmented responses to Sharpe's Fox.... - Falklands: Deucalion has already addressed how Thatcher's cuts encouraged the vile Argentine dictatorship to invade the Falklands; the invasion was unacceptable as it was against the will of the 2000 inhabitants (even though that equates to a small village and the undersea mineral rights may have loomed larger in some calculations). But there were alternatives (UN, diplomacy etc.). Instead, using her undoubted political instinct, Thatcher seized the moment for reflected patriotic glory and an electoral landslide (might've happened anyway), at a time when she was very unpopular due to economic chaos/mass unemployment (4m?!), despite Labour being in disarray. The patriotic rescue (right outcome short-term; wrong method) left about 250 British troops dead, plus about 700 Argentine conscripts - not Argentine dictators like Galtieri, but mainly teenagers/young men (Argentine Sharpe's Foxes, if you like) conscripted into the forces, blown up and/or drowned in the cold waters of the South Atlantic, outside a self-imposed exclusion zone...and Thatcher said "Rejoice!" - Some union leaders are indeed "egotistic" and/or "time-wasting" and/or "strike monkeys" (and Thatcher undoubtedly benefited from the selfish misconduct of some unions in the 1970s)...so join the union and vote the wrong'uns out!! I'd also suggest that you find out a bit about unions, the positive and the negative (easily done on-line). Suffice to say that unions and collective organisation brought many of the rights/advantages that we enjoy today (sometimes through conflict), very few were donated out of the kind benevolence of employers' hearts....unionised workers earn more and have better rights than non-unionised workers. - As an aside, I don't know the percentages, but I think the vast majority of teachers and firefighters are union members - Poll tax was like the Council Tax (local tax to fund council services); the difference was that there were no property bands, as with the Council Tax (where you gradually pay more towards local services, according to your house size - i.e wealth); under the Poll Tax, a multi-millionaire in a mansion paid the same as someone on a poverty wage in a bedsit. - The miners' strike is a difficult one: most of the mines would have gradually closed down due to international competition, but Thatcher made no effort to have any sort of transition, where alternative employment might be introduced for (very concentrated) communities dependent on mining - they were "the enemy within", to be destroyed (partly in revenge for the miners having helped to bring down the 1974 Tory government); I was queasy about Scargill (miners' union leader) at the time and admire him even less with hindsight...though didn't the rival, anti-strike miners' union leader (Neil Greatrex) go to prison for stealing thousands from old people's homes or something?!? Thatcher wanted to absolutely crush parts of this country; unfortunately, Scargill (an ass leading lions) ultimately helped her to achieve her ambition....though he was proved right about her aim - to close down coal mining (a major British industry until the 1980s) - Despite opposing it at the time, I'd have to admit that selling council houses proved to be a good Thatcher policy...what was then very bad indeed was that, for ideological reasons (the "free market" God!), the Tories gradually prevented councils spending the proceeds on building new council houses for those who couldn't afford to buy, contributing to a housing crisis/bubble that contributed to the current collapse and left millions dependent on exploitative buy-to-let private landlords. Hope that helps, Sharpe's Fox! A particular viewpoint, obviously, and a left-inclined one (though I'd like to think, not as black-and-white as some views on left & right). Up to you whether you're interested enough to find out about it, though a good time to start learning, age 18....and a good time, too, given the death of the most significant PM since Churchill (WW2) and Attlee (1945-50) Dont agree with it all.. but a good post..ruined (for me at least) by a lack of paragraghs...hope you dont mind me breaking it up a little, it just made easier reading for me. edit mildy amusing that as i typed.. that damned awful coldplay "paradise" song was on radio... which now of course is stuck in my head, but is.. "para, para, paragraphs"... get out of my head spotty!
Dr The Singh Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 margeret thatcher was a admirer of Indra Gandhi.........that says it all. Even still, she is dead, no need to remember her
absolutelegend Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 It says on the news that some anti capitalists are planning to protest at Margret Thatcher's funeral. Not sure what protesting to a dead person would ever achieve apart from ugly scenes and a larger police bill.
broughtonblue Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 In 1976 I think it was, the Argentinians were making noises as if to invade the Falklands. Talks had stalled over the thing they always stall over, Britain would not concede without the say so of the inhabitants and the inhabitants would not budge an inch. Callaghan quietly sent reinforcements to the island. This was enough to persuade the Argentines to leave well alone. Contrast this with Thatcher removing Endeavor from the South Atlantic. You won't read about this in The Sun but that doesn't make it any less true. so what your saying is, if for example i inherited a nearly bankrupt buisness, say a shop for instance. First priority would be for me to save cash. So i get rid of the security guard who stands at the door. A few weeks later the local youths attack my shop with baseball bats and knick a load of my stuff. Am i to blame for this or the toerags who commited the crime. Who should be arrested?
Mark_w Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 http://whydopeoplehatethatcher.com/all How much of that is true?
Alf Bentley Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 Dont agree with it all.. but a good post..ruined (for me at least) by a lack of paragraghs...hope you dont mind me breaking it up a little, it just made easier reading for me. Apologies, you're right. More paragraphs next time - and maybe fewer words. It was late...
_Fatboyslow_ Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 Not sure what protesting to a dead person would ever achieve apart from ugly scenes and a larger police bill. Pretty much the same as when she was alive then,
Alexikokopops Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 A miner I can probably understand being glad, some unwashed student (seemingly a high proportion of those doing the celebrating) not even out of his dads balls when Thatcher was in power I don't really get myself. You're not alone in finding this outpouring of cheer from billions of people (a lot of which can't have been affected in any way) a little odd. It's like Diana again, except a slightly angrier version. My girlfriend's dad was a miner and they had they house repossessed as a result of fall out of the miners' strikes. While they're in no way her biggest fan they're not celebrating like LargeAl.
Finnegan Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 To be fair, Large Al is an attention seeking little shit.
Alexikokopops Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 To be fair, Large Al is an attention seeking little shit. You better hope he's on his 10-15 hours of sleep a week or you are in trouble bwoy.
Finnegan Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 You don't need sleep when you're powered by neat alcohol from the local anarchist club.
Alf Bentley Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 http://whydopeoplehatethatcher.com/all How much of that is true? I don't know whether this is a rhetorical or a straightforward question. Assuming the latter... From memory of living through it and without checking sources: - Most of the statements are completely accurate: police used as army; anti-homosexuality; anti-feminism; flirting with racism; corporate tax breaks; supported Saddam; opposed Mandela (a "terrorist"); stopped school milk; praised Pinochet; inequality rose; 1000s in poverty; Care in the Community; Hillsborough cover-up; Falklands deaths; poll tax inverse redistribution etc. - 1 or 2 are a bit slanted: utility sell-offs did mainly benefit private companies, but members of the public bought shares too (though many sold them on to make a quick buck); a lot of council housing ended up in the hands of private landlords, but mainly indirectly, most were sold to tenants initially, I think. - Pretty sure the one re. Suharto is right, too; DK re. Khmer Rouge
_Fatboyslow_ Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 If you mean the above, it is not propaganda, it is historical fact. If you want propaganda then look no further than the myth of the Iron Lady rescuing the Falklands from an unexpected attack. It was her government's cuts and diplomatic ineptitude which encouraged the Argentines to invade. And a deliberate escalation with the the sinking of the Belgrano
Babylon Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 You're not alone in finding this outpouring of cheer from billions of people (a lot of which can't have been affected in any way) a little odd. It's like Diana again, except a slightly angrier version. My girlfriend's dad was a miner and they had they house repossessed as a result of fall out of the miners' strikes. While they're in no way her biggest fan they're not celebrating like LargeAl. The time for celebration was when she was removed from office, considering those seemingly doing most of the "celebrating" weren't even born I can only presume they feel like they missed out... so the death of an old woman with little influence left in today's world will have to do.
Alf Bentley Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 The time for celebration was when she was removed from office, considering those seemingly doing most of the "celebrating" weren't even born I can only presume they feel like they missed out... so the death of an old woman with little influence left in today's world will have to do. Agreed. Thatcher is dead, but her policies (and influence) live on. I'd much prefer that it was the other way round.
_Fatboyslow_ Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 The time for celebration was when she was removed from office, considering those seemingly doing most of the "celebrating" weren't even born I can only presume they feel like they missed out... so the death of an old woman with little influence left in today's world will have to do. a riot with a mounted police charging in seems oddly appropriate Agreed. Thatcher is dead, but her policies (and influence) live on. I'd much prefer that it was the other way round. Nicely put
cambridgefox Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 How many accounts has George Galloway got on here!
Guest Bilo Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 How many accounts has George Galloway got on here! As nobody is using intellectual language or archaic phrasing to make themselves sound more intelligent than they actually are, or talking about how wonderful the dictators in Syria and Iran are, I'm going with none.
Daggers Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 If she was so bad... why the sodding hell did you people old enough to vote manage to let her get elected on THREE occasions? This forum continues to mine stupid as if there's no end.
yorkie1999 Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 I don't know whether this is a rhetorical or a straightforward question. Assuming the latter... From memory of living through it and without checking sources: - Most of the statements are completely accurate: police used as army; anti-homosexuality; anti-feminism; flirting with racism; corporate tax breaks; supported Saddam; opposed Mandela (a "terrorist"); stopped school milk; praised Pinochet; inequality rose; 1000s in poverty; Care in the Community; Hillsborough cover-up; Falklands deaths; poll tax inverse redistribution etc. - 1 or 2 are a bit slanted: utility sell-offs did mainly benefit private companies, but members of the public bought shares too (though many sold them on to make a quick buck); a lot of council housing ended up in the hands of private landlords, but mainly indirectly, most were sold to tenants initially, I think. - Pretty sure the one re. Suharto is right, too; DK re. Khmer Rouge Everyone was given a share in British gas, but 1 share isn't going to make you any money so people sold them and they ended in the hands of stock brokers who promptly made a fortune on them. People bought their council house but the government never replaced the ones sold so there was less social housing, no maintenence costs plus the banks got to sell millions of mortgages and make a fortune off taxpayers assets.
Zingari Posted 10 April 2013 Posted 10 April 2013 Everyone was given a share in British gas, but 1 share isn't going to make you any money so people sold them and they ended in the hands of stock brokers who promptly made a fortune on them. People bought their council house but the government never replaced the ones sold so there was less social housing, no maintenence costs plus the banks got to sell millions of mortgages and make a fortune off taxpayers assets. I can't remember being given a share , and if I was I must still have it somewhere because I definitely haven't sold it .
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