Jon the Hat Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Honestly if Russia annexing Crimea is as far as this goes it is not a disaster. It has only not been part of Russia since 1954.
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Honestly if Russia annexing Crimea is as far as this goes it is not a disaster. It has only not been part of Russia since 1954. To be fair, the issues go back way further than that. It's changed 'ownership' several times throughout history... And besides, the Russian citizens are not the only ones ' ethnic' to that crimean land - the Muslim tatars are who Stalin banished from the land- ethnic cleansing. Many Ukrainian nationals are have lived there for generations. Sure , Russian nationals are the large majority there but that's going to happen when you ethnically cleanse an area. So easy to claim it as your own after that..
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 UK needs to stay well out of it. The only thing well do is push the E.U and United nations to implement economic sanctions....
Strokes Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 The only thing well do is push the E.U and United nations to implement economic sanctions....Even thats a dangerous game.
Webbo Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 The only thing well do is push the E.U and United nations to implement economic sanctions.... There are too many countries who rely on Russian gas for that. One of the reasons we need to frack so we don't have countries like this blackmailing us.
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 There are too many countries who rely on Russian gas for that. One of the reasons we need to frack so we don't have countries like this blackmailing us. And that's the very reason why sanctions would work- Russia knows we are not as dependant on their gas as we used to be- they'll need to react if they want to keep us as customers...
maynefox Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 http://t.co/mSEpcU8LVF (Can translate to Russia) Putin asks Parliament to send troops in ... nothing new then
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 http://t.co/mSEpcU8LVF (Can translate to Russia) Putin asks Parliament to send troops in ... nothing new then Yup.. approval has been given. Intrestingly, not just for troops yo be used in crimea but in ' the territory of Ukraine'. There are other parts of the Ukraine that a number of Russians live in... Seems to be Georgia all over again. OR Putin could be trying to call the new regime's bluff. Still wrangling for more influence in their future financial set up.
ADK Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Russia won't give up the Ukraine. There's two outcomes I can see. Either Russia annexes the Ukraine or Ukraine splits, but it won't be very neat. I think there will be war and will sour relations between the west and Russia.
sphericalfox Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Russia won't give up the Ukraine. There's two outcomes I can see. Either Russia annexes the Ukraine or Ukraine splits, but it won't be very neat. I think there will be war and will sour relations between the west and Russia. Russia have been gagging for a war for the last five or six years. Some the rhetoric Putin has been spitting over the last few years for me have been proper old school mental. They need some big shitty pointless war to assert their supposed new dominance to their brainwashed Putineers. Holding Europe to ransom with its gas and oil hasn't worked as well as they'd like. Qatar has been a pain in its arse.
bovril Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Russia have been gagging for a war for the last five or six years. Some the rhetoric Putin has been spitting over the last few years for me have been proper old school mental. They need some big shitty pointless war to assert their supposed new dominance to their brainwashed Putineers. Holding Europe to ransom with its gas and oil hasn't worked as well as they'd like. Qatar has been a pain in its arse. You should keep an eye on Erdogan, far worse than Putin. It just doesn't get discussed so much in the West because he's, you know, an 'ally'.
Webbo Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Tbf to the Russians there has been a legitimately elected govt overthrown and some of the rebels aren't the nicest people in the world.
bovril Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Tbf to the Russians there has been a legitimately elected govt overthrown and some of the rebels aren't the nicest people in the world. And it's in their neighbourhood.
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Tbf to the Russians there has been a legitimately elected govt overthrown and some of the rebels aren't the nicest people in the world. but what's that got to do with Russia? its not their nation and its not their government?
Webbo Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 but what's that got to do with Russia? its not their nation and its not their government? Just the same as when we get involved in other people's wars.
bovril Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 but what's that got to do with Russia? its not their nation and its not their government? Because it's linked very closely to their nation. If armed, anti-English protestors take over the centre of Belfast we're not going to sit around doing nothing.
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Just the same as when we get involved in other people's wars. Because it's linked very closely to their nation. If armed, anti-English protestors take over the centre of Belfast we're not going to sit around doing nothing. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Russian nationals are under any threat at all - neither have they been. Lets not forget it was Russian nationals who are now flying the Russian flag in the Crimean area something that goes directly against a deal Russia signed in 1994 recognizing the Ukraine bounderies as they are now as the legitimate boundaries.... what is it that Ukraine have done to justify Russian national miliarty intervention... I just don't get it.. and as for when we have been involved, in Iraq it was the Majority shia muslims ( ALL Iraqi passport holders) that were being persecuted by the richer more affluent Shiite muslims lead by saddam Hussein, now wether the real reason was for oil or not is another argument for another thread, but the reality is that it was their OWN people with their Iraqi passports that were being tortured, raped and killed on a daily basis.. whilst with Ukraine it is people of a different passport ( NON Ukraine citizens) who was kicking off in a country that is even recognized by the Russian government as not being theirs. Very different if you ask me... especially when Belfast is part of the UK and we would have a right to defend out own country
bovril Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 But there is no evidence whatsoever that Russian nationals are under any threat at all - neither have they been. Lets not forget it was Russian nationals who are now flying the Russian flag in the Crimean area something that goes directly against a deal Russia signed in 1994 recognizing the Ukraine bounderies as they are now as the legitimate boundaries.... what is it that Ukraine have done to justify Russian national miliarty intervention... I just don't get it.. and as for when we have been involved, in Iraq it was the Majority shia muslims ( ALL Iraqi passport holders) that were being persecuted by the richer more affluent Shiite muslims lead by saddam Hussein, now wether the real reason was for oil or not is another argument for another thread, but the reality is that it was their OWN people with their Iraqi passports that were being tortured, raped and killed on a daily basis.. whilst with Ukraine it is people of a different passport ( NON Ukraine citizens) who was kicking off in a country that is even recognized by the Russian government as not being theirs. Very different if you ask me... especially when Belfast is part of the UK and we would have a right to defend out own country Good points, and it wasn't the best comparison I know. I think you're stretching a bit when you mention Iraq, we weren't really going in to liberate people from a dictatorial regime, just like Russia aren't going in solely to secure the safety of the Russian population. But like it or not, Russia are the neighbourhood watch in that area, a lot of their military hardware and infrastructure is in the Ukraine so they are bound to get involved. I don't like the Russian regime but the EU / NATO / US 'holier than thou' stance just stinks of hypocrisy - not only because of our recent history of interventionism but because we routinely lick the arses of far worse regimes than Russia.
MPH Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 Good points, and it wasn't the best comparison I know. I think you're stretching a bit when you mention Iraq, we weren't really going in to liberate people from a dictatorial regime, just like Russia aren't going in solely to secure the safety of the Russian population. But like it or not, Russia are the neighbourhood watch in that area, a lot of their military hardware and infrastructure is in the Ukraine so they are bound to get involved. I don't like the Russian regime but the EU / NATO / US 'holier than thou' stance just stinks of hypocrisy - not only because of our recent history of interventionism but because we routinely lick the arses of far worse regimes than Russia. well yes like I said, I think the legitimacy of what went on Iraq and other places are best for another thread and I don't doubt you on the hypocracy of the organisations mentioned.. but that still doesn't deal with the issue of wether what Russia is doing now is wrong and for me it is in all accounts, wrong. For me a better comparison would be that after a bit of a spat over trade ties with Germany, armed germen inhabitants of England ( who still have german passports) suddenly take over government structures in Leicester claiming that as the Saxons came from their homeland in Saxony and settled over here years ago that this area is now a legitimate part of Germany... it gets notice from the german government who give Merkel permission to send some soldiers over here.... tenious, I know....
Deucalion Posted 1 March 2014 Author Posted 1 March 2014 German actions to protect native Germans in foreign countries in the 30s is probably a better comparison. Such as Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia...Poland. With Russia we have now had Chechnia, Georgia, maybe next Ukraine. Then Poland???
Buce Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 But there is no evidence whatsoever that Russian nationals are under any threat at all - neither have they been. Lets not forget it was Russian nationals who are now flying the Russian flag in the Crimean area something that goes directly against a deal Russia signed in 1994 recognizing the Ukraine bounderies as they are now as the legitimate boundaries.... what is it that Ukraine have done to justify Russian national miliarty intervention... I just don't get it.. and as for when we have been involved, in Iraq it was the Majority shia muslims ( ALL Iraqi passport holders) that were being persecuted by the richer more affluent Shiite muslims lead by saddam Hussein, now wether the real reason was for oil or not is another argument for another thread, but the reality is that it was their OWN people with their Iraqi passports that were being tortured, raped and killed on a daily basis.. whilst with Ukraine it is people of a different passport ( NON Ukraine citizens) who was kicking off in a country that is even recognized by the Russian government as not being theirs. Very different if you ask me... especially when Belfast is part of the UK and we would have a right to defend out own country Saddam was Sunni muslim, not Shia.
bovril Posted 1 March 2014 Posted 1 March 2014 German actions to protect native Germans in foreign countries in the 30s is probably a better comparison. Such as Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia...Poland. With Russia we have now had Chechnia, Georgia, maybe next Ukraine. Then Poland??? Or London?
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.