Teacher stabbed to death

[Alf Bentley]

Having mental health problems doesn't excuse someone for their actions. Indeed, in almost every situation, those problems are apparent long before any desperate harm is done - yet still responsibility for guarding against the potential dangers is abdicated.

I remember a murder three or four years back that came about because a schitzo didn't receive his usual medication when his helper went on holiday and the subsequent breakdown in communications lead to what became a fatal error.

 

It strikes me that nearly everyone who commits a heinous crime should never have had the chance in the first place when all the evidence comes out. Their violent disposition and tendency towards wanton cruelty or lack of control is almost always well known long before. But society fails to take its responsibilities. Ignoring all logic it offers another chance - and another one after that and so often on the back of the flawed Human Rights Act that so smugly promotes the rights of individuals while blandly disregarding the rights of victims.   

 

It's NOT the Human Rights Act that is concerned, it is the 1983 Mental Health Act (amended in 2007). Here are 2 links that explain "sectioning" (compulsory treatment of the mentally ill to prevent them being a danger to others - or, much more often, to themselves):

https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090508053629AAjQcJK

http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/mental-health-act-the-mind-guide/compulsory-admission-to-hospital/#.U2AyalVdVIE

 

The dilemmas are obvious. When is someone so mentally deluded that they are a danger to themselves or others? If she mutters to herself and is inattentive crossing the road? If he walks the streets at night saying he's on a mission to sort out social problems? If he says that the TV set is sending messages into his brain? If she says that she needs to escape because people are conspiring to kill her? If he says that Satan is telling him to do something bad?

 

On a preventive basis, should we lock up everyone who becomes mentally ill or seems a bit threatening? Most people suffering a serious mental illness are not violent and, if anything, are mainly a risk to themselves - sometimes attracting violence from "sane" people due to their odd behaviour. Most violence is committed by young men on the piss. Should they be locked away, too?

 

I've never worked in mental health, but happen to know 5 people who've been hospitalised with schizophrenia-type problems, at least 3 of them sectioned. None of them were violent to others, but one did serious self-harm & all acted in a way that risked accidental harm to self or others. All have now been well for at least 8-10 years. 4 are in employment, the other is a carer. 2 are parents and 1 works in a school.

 

I was with 3 of them when they got ill (separately!). After 3 to 10 days I got 2 of them admitted to mental health units as voluntary patients, failing with the other bloke, who then got arrested for a minor offence and sectioned. It was a genuine nightmare trying to get help, as people suffering psychotic delusions don't believe that they're deluded. They're also often distressed or cannot sleep, and can shift between lucidity and utter delusion. They're also often paranoid, so the last thing they want to do is to go and see anyone with power, like a doctor.

 

In practice, medical professionals are loath to intervene unless you can persuade the ill person to go to a surgery (often impossible) and he/she is clearly an immediate (not just potential) danger to self or others. A couple of times, medical staff told me: you'll have to wait until he commits an offence, then the police can arrest him and we can help him! This situation is exacerbated by mental health being an under-resourced, Cinderella service - in turn exacerbated by people promoting stigma against "schitzos".

 

The case of Leicester's Bradgate Mental Health Unit has been in the news in the last couple of years, with inquests into the suicides of six mental health patients based there. I visited a couple of friends there 10-15 years ago. The excellent psychiatrist who treated them left soon after as he knew that the service was about to decline through reorganisation/under-funding.

 

 

I work in psychiatry and currently working with 3 lads who have commutes serious offenses prior to coming into my care. They're all quite mad to put it bluntly. But you are talking long term enduring mental illnesses, debilitating relapsing illnesses. A lad of 15 who is bullied, plays video games and listens to heavy metal music doesn't fall in to that category. He had obviously planned this, you don't just have a knife on your person. People who are severely depressed don't kill people, the motivation and energy just isn't there. He may have been an outcast and possibly had a difficult time of it. But this is no excuse. None at all. RIP to the poor lady I hope she is in a better place. My thoughts to her family, friends and all the poor souls who had to whiteness this disgusting act.

 

I've no idea what caused this lad to kill his teacher. Maybe he was seriously alienated but not mentally ill. Maybe he was just twisted and self-obsessed. Maybe he intended to wound her to impress someone. Maybe he was on the edge and then slipped over into mental illness. There is always a first appearance of an "enduring" or "debilitating relapsing" illness.

 

It doesn't take much planning to just have a knife on you and jump on someone in a psychotic state - and, believe me, someone with psychosis can have the energy to keep on the go, with no sleep and in a deluded state, for several days and nights.

 

If someone is suffering from paranoia and/or delusions, they MAY just have a knife on their person. Indeed, one of my friends DID have a knife on them - though only with a deluded intent to self-harm, not to harm others.

[ozleicester]

Waiting for the facts and allowing someone their time in court is NOT defending or excusing them.

 

When most of the decisions about how to treat the alleged murder were being discussed on here, eg, kill him/her,  locking up forever, or shipping to a faraway land, the only information most people had was a sketchy news report.

 

For so many people who whine about football fans being treated unfairly and generalised as hooligans... youd think they would be happy to wait and judge fairly.

[LeicesterBran]

That is really sad to hear. My thoughts are with Ann Maguire's family.

[Guest Col city fan]

I think some are falling into the age old trap of branding this kid as 'mad' without any evidence.

The incidence of violent crime is significantly less amongst those with a serious mental illness than amongst the population per se. Younger people with a psychosis, for example, are typically highly introvert, avoid social settings and, unless their symptoms are florid, tend to keep themselves to themselves.

The truth will out and yes, this attack may have been drug-induced. But immediately giving him the label of 'mad' does an injustice to a growing lack of respect for authority, a breakdown of moral values and the dissolution of the traditional family unit.

In other words, it's a label too readily used without knowing the facts. It could be that this kid was mentally ill. But at present, we don't know this.

[Guest]

Did she go on strike?

[Jon the Hat]

Very sad for the victim and her family, but also a tragedy for the 15 year old and his family. Whatever reasons took him to this horrendous crime, this is a waste if life twice over.

[NewburyFox]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11205083/Boy-16-winked-at-fellow-student-before-stabbing-teacher-Ann-Maguire-to-death-as-she-tried-to-flee.html

 

Absolutely horrendous.

[DennisNedry]

Cold calculated murder, attempt to further attack the victim after she ran away, then no remorse afterwards - in fact he's proud of it.

 

[SystonFox]

Death is too good for him. Let him rot. Name and shame also. Fvck your anonymity court orders what this young man has done is horrific.

[Fox92]

Wow. Reading that article is vile.

[NewburyFox]

Given life, with a minimum of twenty years. He should never be released IMO.

[Strokes]

Given life, with a minimum of twenty years. He should never be released IMO.

Totally agree, I just hope he is allowed to vote though, basic human rights.

[Bellend Sebastian]

"Psychopathic tendencies".

I don't think we need to worry about this one getting out, the judge has pretty much said that anyway

[leicsmac]

Full on psychopath. Utterly self-obsessed and self-justifying.

 

Perhaps a candidate for some risky radical new psychological treatment that someone has thought of and needs nothing-to-lose subjects? He ought to serve society in some way for what he did and death or life just living in a box isn't going to help that.

[ADK]

I can't really get too angry, it sounds like he has an extreme form of personality disorder.

[Rincewind]

The human brain is more complex than a computer. With a computer if something goes wrong you can fix it with a spare part. Unfortunately this is not always possible with the human mind. Scientists are still a little way off determining which part goes where so until they can punishing and isolating those with brain malfunctions is the best way to go.

The worse thing is that it can happen to anyone at anytime sometimes without warning.

[Bert]

I know he's only 16 but he should be able to be named.

[David Guiza]

I know he's only 16 but he should be able to be named.

Why? I'm not disagreeing per say, just wondered as to why you believe he needs to be named? If/when he gets out he'll end up very much like the Jamie Bulger killers with a new life an identity.

Horrific crime, and his life is now gone also. I don't think his name being plastered all over the press is going to change anything.

[ADK]

I don't see how naming him would help. It would put his family at risk of harassment, complicate efforts to hide his identity if he is released and feed a media frenzy which I don't believe is in the interest of the victim's family. I thought it was generally agreed in the Bulger case that releasing the killer's identity was a mistake.

[Jon the Hat]

The human brain is more complex than a computer. With a computer if something goes wrong you can fix it with a spare part. Unfortunately this is not always possible with the human mind. Scientists are still a little way off determining which part goes where so until they can punishing and isolating those with brain malfunctions is the best way to go.

The worse thing is that it can happen to anyone at anytime sometimes without warning.

 

There is no way this happened without warning out of the blue.  Somebody knew he was dangerous, I can assure you.  Hi first victim wasn't stabbed to death in class room. 

[Rincewind]

Naming him will put his family at risk. They have done nothing wrong and could be subjected to vigilantes because they cannot get at him.

No doubt some family will be targeted anyway. A missing 15 year old from a street and school. Tongues will wag and fingers pointed. It will be his family that will need new identities.

[ADK]

You'd have hoped when he brought a load of knives into school and showed other pupils whilst boasting he was going to murder a teacher that someone would have let a teacher or the police know.

[Fox92]

Perhaps a candidate for some risky radical new psychological treatment that someone has thought of and needs nothing-to-lose subjects? 

 

[Jon the Hat]

You'd have hoped when he brought a load of knives into school and showed other pupils whilst boasting he was going to murder a teacher that someone would have let a teacher or the police know.

 

I suspect in these cases people just think they are full of shit.  I wonder how many such attacks are in fact prevented by someone telling their teachers.

[David Guiza]

Judge at Leeds Crown Court have now named him. Inevitable.