The Politics Thread

[SMX11]

22 minutes ago, longman said:

Pounds will crash after May indicates the Brexit date, what the hell.

Think it is more down to that fact the Tories have again abandoned fiscal restraint coupled with BoE being loose with monetary policy. The result will be the debasement of the currency and the cost of living increasing due to price inflation.

[Webbo]

39 minutes ago, longman said:

Pounds will crash after May indicates the Brexit date, what the hell.

Shares are up.

[Guest MattP]

15 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Austerity was never about 'balancing the books'; It was an ideological attack on the Welfare State, as we on the left told you at the time.

 

Welcome to the real world, Matt.

Something had to be done about the deficit in 10', even the most ardent left winger I doubt would even put a case forward to run a country on a continous debt of 180billion a year, if it was just an attack on the welfare state it wasn't a very good one as welfare spending has still gone up every single year since they came to government.

 

I do find it very worrying the Tories have decided to go down this route though, I can see why they have done it, but borrowing from the future to pay for today has never worked, I just hope it's a temporary ease off rather than them just taking the line of virtually everyone else and just noth caring what they spend in order to try and grab cheap votes.

[Webbo]

Quote

 

BREAKING NEWS: Diane James quits as Ukip boss 18 days after becoming leader, says source

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/717644/Diane-James-Ukip-leader-quit-Nigel-Farage

 

Didn't last as long as big Sam.

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, Webbo said:

Didn't last as long as big Sam.

 

Job swap. 

 

I can quite see Big Sam in the Farage role. Similar characters, in a way.

Not sure how Rooney and co would take to Diane James, but she couldn't do worse than some recent England managers.

[Alf Bentley]

Taking politics seriously for a minute (hard to do just now)....

 

How lucky are the Tories, the way their opponents are carrying on?!

 

They are embarking on a massive, controversial reform with a tiny minority and a divided party. In normal times, that would be a major problem and they'd have an opposition party breathing down their necks.

Instead, Labour is led by a narcissist fantasist and has devoted itself to navel-gazing and becoming a utopian debating society - and UKIP, presented with the chance to claim the mantle of main opposition party, opts for the same sort of internal party bollocks, throwing in a game of musical chairs for the party leadership!

 

The BBC reported that the DUP had a prominent stall at Tory Party Conference, where they were welcoming leading Tories, cosying up and schmoozing them with champagne etc.

Makes sense for Dame Theresa given the parliamentary numbers. If they informally have the DUP on board, that gives them an effective majority of almost 30, instead of being vulnerable to just 6 Tory MPs rebelling, dying, going off the rails or whatever.

What will they offer the DUP for this sort of "understanding"? The Unionists have a history of being happy to accept generous spending commitments to please their constituents, so hopefully it'll just be "pork barrel" stuff and not reneging on the Peace Process.

 

May will probably need that extra buffer of support once Brexit starts properly. Whatever she does re. "hard" v. "soft" Brexit, she's going to seriously piss off some within her own party. If it then becomes clear that we're not going to be able to negotiate the nice, beneficial Brexit deal that the Brexiteers suggest, that other nations aren't going to put us top of their lists for trade deals and that, short/medium-term at least, Brexit is going to damage the economy, employment, business,and living standards, it could all get very difficult for May & co. Though the lack of a credible opposition party certainly helps her!  

[Darkon84]

In a move that won't surprise anyone at all, Nigel Farage steps back into the leadership role, following Diane James' resignation, albeit on a 'temporary' basis.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065

[foxy boxing]

diane james "if you blinked you missed it" didn't last long. my guess she couldn't implement her agenda onto the party so felt she had no choice to resign. ukip are a one trick pony and now we are leaving the eu will become even more irrelivent

[Alf Bentley]

23 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

In a move that won't surprise anyone at all, Nigel Farage steps back into the leadership role, following Diane James' resignation, albeit on a 'temporary' basis.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065

 

Shocker! 

 

Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland are different but in England now 2 out of 3 of the main opposition parties seem to be personality cults engaged in civil war, while the third (Lib Dems) is currently a rump led by a scout leader.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

diane james "if you blinked you missed it" didn't last long. my guess she couldn't implement her agenda onto the party so felt she had no choice to resign. ukip are a one trick pony and now we are leaving the eu will become even more irrelivent

 

If UKIP carry on as they are, they will become irrelevant. That's certainly not inevitable, though, particularly if Farage's "temporary" leadership lasts a while.

 

There are a lot of angry, unhappy people in this country - and a massive vacancy for a credible opposition party to express that anger and unhappiness, and to be an alternative to "the establishment". I'm no UKIP fan, but they could easily fill that role if they adapt their message and Labour continue to engage in civil war and/or fantasy politics. That's particularly true if the Tories compromise over the single market and/or migration (and they'll have to do so, for at least one) or the economy takes a downturn (as anybody sane, including Chancellor Hammond, expects).

 

However well the Tories do negotiating Brexit (and they may do very badly), a lot of people will be unhappy with the outcome. There will be major concessions over either the single market or free migration - or both. Even if migration is reduced, there will continue to be large numbers of foreigners in the UK - and high immigration, for a number of years at least, because a lot of vacancies will need to be filled by migrants. You can't just magic hundreds of thousands of qualified British doctors, nurses, teachers, plumbers, finance/tech specialists into existence out of thin air. With a massive, concerted plan of investment in education and training, you might be able to do it over 5-10 years....but that's a long time for Joe Public, when he finds himself skint and hearing countless foreign voices in the street. Likewise, I can't see thousands of Brits suddenly agreeing to go and do seasonal work in the fields of Lincolnshire, probably on crap wages, living in crap accommodation and with only temporary jobs. The farmers will need someone to pick their spuds. There's also the likelihood of an economic downturn, firstly as firms delay investment due to uncertainty over the terms of Brexit and then some switching abroad if it becomes clear that we're going to leave or sort-of-leave the single market. Massive opportunity for an anti-establishment opposition party there, particularly one with English nationalist tinges.

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Taking politics seriously for a minute (hard to do just now)....

 

How lucky are the Tories, the way their opponents are carrying on?!

 

They are embarking on a massive, controversial reform with a tiny minority and a divided party. In normal times, that would be a major problem and they'd have an opposition party breathing down their necks.

Instead, Labour is led by a narcissist fantasist and has devoted itself to navel-gazing and becoming a utopian debating society - and UKIP, presented with the chance to claim the mantle of main opposition party, opts for the same sort of internal party bollocks, throwing in a game of musical chairs for the party leadership!

 

The BBC reported that the DUP had a prominent stall at Tory Party Conference, where they were welcoming leading Tories, cosying up and schmoozing them with champagne etc.

Makes sense for Dame Theresa given the parliamentary numbers. If they informally have the DUP on board, that gives them an effective majority of almost 30, instead of being vulnerable to just 6 Tory MPs rebelling, dying, going off the rails or whatever.

What will they offer the DUP for this sort of "understanding"? The Unionists have a history of being happy to accept generous spending commitments to please their constituents, so hopefully it'll just be "pork barrel" stuff and not reneging on the Peace Process.

 

May will probably need that extra buffer of support once Brexit starts properly. Whatever she does re. "hard" v. "soft" Brexit, she's going to seriously piss off some within her own party. If it then becomes clear that we're not going to be able to negotiate the nice, beneficial Brexit deal that the Brexiteers suggest, that other nations aren't going to put us top of their lists for trade deals and that, short/medium-term at least, Brexit is going to damage the economy, employment, business,and living standards, it could all get very difficult for May & co. Though the lack of a credible opposition party certainly helps her!  

The luckiest party of all time, they were lucky in 2015 as well, the Scottish referendum fell perfect for Cameron giving a lot of a public a choice between the Tories and an Labour/SNP coalition, long term the EU referendum might be lucky as well, the last three leaders have all been brought down by it, once we are out that can't happen again.

 

I think it still could be good for UKIP, Diane James is an ex-Tory public schoolgirl, she was never going to win over the seats that UKIP now need to target with the Labour party taking the route it has, Stephen Woolfe can certainly do that, a mized race, northern lad from a working class background. There is huge room for a "anti mass immigration, anti-establishment but anti-Tory" party.

 

I didn't know that about the DUP, it makes sense though given it seems certain May has no intention of calling an election until 2020.

 

As an aside Ken Clarke's memoirs have been published in The Times this year, they have been a very interesting read, I think he's had enough now and doesn't want to be part of a government or party that withdraws us from the European Union, wouldn't surprise me if it stepped down before 2020.
 

1 hour ago, Darkon84 said:

In a move that won't surprise anyone at all, Nigel Farage steps back into the leadership role, following Diane James' resignation, albeit on a 'temporary' basis.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065

Not all superheroes wear capes.......

 

 

If it was upto the members he would walk a leadership election, I think he's more concerned with making a few quid now, a warts and all autobiography of his time in UKIP alongside the EU ref would be one of the biggest selling political books of all time.

[Guest MattP]

I thought Chairwoman May's speech was a little limp today, probably because it was only a cautious blueprint rather than a statement of intent for a new direction for the country.

 

It was very apt to hear her say we have a new "nasty party" though, one that incites violence against opponents, sneers at anyone with a different opinion and is riddled with anti-semitism - The Labour Party, given it was virtually fourteen years to the day she was the first Tory brave enough to say it to the conference about themselves.

 

How Labour have got into a position where she can deliver that line and a lot of the left wing commentariat agree with it, only they can answer.

[ousefox]

52 minutes ago, MattP said:

I thought Chairwoman May's speech was a little limp today, probably because it was only a cautious blueprint rather than a statement of intent for a new direction for the country.

 

It was very apt to hear her say we have a new "nasty party" though, one that incites violence against opponents, sneers at anyone with a different opinion and is riddled with anti-semitism - The Labour Party, given it was virtually fourteen years to the day she was the first Tory brave enough to say it to the conference about themselves.

 

How Labour have got into a position where she can deliver that line and a lot of the left wing commentariat agree with it, only they can answer.

I think it's even more striking how Labour are hardly doing anything to defend themselves from these accusations. I don't know how they are expecting to have any success if they don't attempt to rubbish these claims or strongly disassociate themselves from the behaviour of the their aggressive members. It makes me question who the hell they have working for them just as much as their leadership.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I think it still could be good for UKIP, Diane James is an ex-Tory public schoolgirl, she was never going to win over the seats that UKIP now need to target with the Labour party taking the route it has, Stephen Woolfe can certainly do that, a mized race, northern lad from a working class background. There is huge room for a "anti mass immigration, anti-establishment but anti-Tory" party.

 

I didn't know that about the DUP, it makes sense though given it seems certain May has no intention of calling an election until 2020.

 

As an aside Ken Clarke's memoirs have been published in The Times this year, they have been a very interesting read, I think he's had enough now and doesn't want to be part of a government or party that withdraws us from the European Union, wouldn't surprise me if it stepped down before 2020.
 

 

Good point about Diane James not appealing to disillusioned Labour voters (though she might have appealed to southern Tory voters disillusioned at any Brexit compromises, a few years down the line). I've not seen much of Woolfe, but wonder how he'd go down with women voters. He might appeal to working-class ex-Lab men, but he comes across as quite macho and slightly aggressive - might put off a fair few women.

 

Signs of leading Tories cosying up to the DUP tend to confirm the theory that May has no intention of calling an early election.

 

Clarke is standing down in 2020, anyway, isn't he? I could imagine him hanging around until then trying to do a bit to keep post-Brexit Britain reasonably close to the EU. I'm sure his book would be very good as he's an intelligent, likeable bloke who thinks for himself, has a sense of humour and enjoys a bit of fun. Definitely one of the politicians who'd be close to the top of my "Would you enjoy a few pints with them?" list. Reminds me a lot of my late father-in-law, in both personality and politics.

 

 

35 minutes ago, MattP said:

I thought Chairwoman May's speech was a little limp today, probably because it was only a cautious blueprint rather than a statement of intent for a new direction for the country.

 

It was very apt to hear her say we have a new "nasty party" though, one that incites violence against opponents, sneers at anyone with a different opinion and is riddled with anti-semitism - The Labour Party, given it was virtually fourteen years to the day she was the first Tory brave enough to say it to the conference about themselves.

 

How Labour have got into a position where she can deliver that line and a lot of the left wing commentariat agree with it, only they can answer.

 

I've not heard May's speech, but my wife (a critical Lab voter) listened and was impressed - "vicar's daughter with a genuine interest in social justice", she said. She'd never vote Tory any more than I would, but if May is impressing people like her, she'll be winning over less partisan swing voters, for now at least. Even I've quite approved of much of her rhetoric - though the political reality in tough financial times might be very different. If tax revenues shrink she'll have some tough calls to make.

 

As for how Labour got in this mess: Miliband's stupid leadership election system + A few idiot MPs patronisingly nominating Corbyn to get the dogmatic left on the ballot paper (damage only evident with hindsight, admittedly) + The dogmatic left seizing its opportunity + Thousands of politically naive / unthinking / narcissistic leftists jumping on the Corbyn/utopian cult bandwagon so that they form an internal party majority? Will be interesting to see how many keyboard Corbynistas get involved in canvassing / speaking to non-Corbynistas - my guess is not many (apart from the dedicated devotees of particular dogmatic left factions), but I might be wrong.

[Alf Bentley]

10 minutes ago, Watson said:

I think it's even more striking how Labour are hardly doing anything to defend themselves from these accusations. I don't know how they are expecting to have any success if they don't attempt to rubbish these claims or strongly disassociate themselves from the behaviour of the their aggressive members. It makes me question who the hell they have working for them just as much as their leadership.

 

A very polarised, defensive mindset has developed, I think: "which side are you on?" etc. If someone is on "the right side", namely a Corbynista, they're loath to criticise them unless they're caught red-handed committing murder or something.

 

They don't seem to care what non-Corbynista Labour supporters think of them, as they're on "the wrong side" - never mind caring about how it looks to people who voted Tory or UKIP before and whose votes they need to win.

If there were to be an early general election, unless Brexit goes pear-shaped very quickly (likely to be a longer, slower process), I reckon Labour could do significantly worse than the result achieved by Foot in 1983. And Foot was much more intelligent and articulate than Corbyn, a better leader (though a poor one) and more prepared to engage with opposing arguments...and faced a much more difficult political situation (Tories fairly united, media enthusiasm for the SDP split, Falklands War etc).

 

Massively depressing. I was fully intending to get actively involved in the Labour Party again, but I'm not going to spend my precious spare time arguing with a load of unaware, uncompromising, sometimes hostile people with closed minds. I doubt if I'd even vote Labour if there was an election tomorrow. Who I'd vote for, I've no idea: Lib Dems? Protest vote for the Greens (who don't seem to be moving forward either)?

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Watson said:

I think it's even more striking how Labour are hardly doing anything to defend themselves from these accusations. I don't know how they are expecting to have any success if they don't attempt to rubbish these claims or strongly disassociate themselves from the behaviour of the their aggressive members. It makes me question who the hell they have working for them just as much as their leadership.

Doesn't Corbyn tend to his allotment on Tuesdays and make Jam on Wednesdays when it's not PMQ's?
 

Sure @Rincewind said he did so you might hear something tomorrow to defend themselves against the allegations.

 

56 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Good point about Diane James not appealing to disillusioned Labour voters (though she might have appealed to southern Tory voters disillusioned at any Brexit compromises, a few years down the line). I've not seen much of Woolfe, but wonder how he'd go down with women voters. He might appeal to working-class ex-Lab men, but he comes across as quite macho and slightly aggressive - might put off a fair few women.

 

Signs of leading Tories cosying up to the DUP tend to confirm the theory that May has no intention of calling an early election.

 

Clarke is standing down in 2020, anyway, isn't he? I could imagine him hanging around until then trying to do a bit to keep post-Brexit Britain reasonably close to the EU. I'm sure his book would be very good as he's an intelligent, likeable bloke who thinks for himself, has a sense of humour and enjoys a bit of fun. Definitely one of the politicians who'd be close to the top of my "Would you enjoy a few pints with them?" list. Reminds me a lot of my late father-in-law, in both personality and politics.

I've not heard May's speech, but my wife (a critical Lab voter) listened and was impressed - "vicar's daughter with a genuine interest in social justice", she said. She'd never vote Tory any more than I would, but if May is impressing people like her, she'll be winning over less partisan swing voters, for now at least. Even I've quite approved of much of her rhetoric - though the political reality in tough financial times might be very different. If tax revenues shrink she'll have some tough calls to make.

 

As for how Labour got in this mess: Miliband's stupid leadership election system + A few idiot MPs patronisingly nominating Corbyn to get the dogmatic left on the ballot paper (damage only evident with hindsight, admittedly) + The dogmatic left seizing its opportunity + Thousands of politically naive / unthinking / narcissistic leftists jumping on the Corbyn/utopian cult bandwagon so that they form an internal party majority? Will be interesting to see how many keyboard Corbynistas get involved in canvassing / speaking to non-Corbynistas - my guess is not many (apart from the dedicated devotees of particular dogmatic left factions), but I might be wrong.

I think UKIP is still going to be seen as a macho party anyway, no matter how much they tried to get away from it it was always still going to be the "bloke in the pub" party, Farage has created that and it will live with them for a long, long time.

 

There was a clue to the answer of the last question this week, only 4,000 attended the party conference, if that's all that can be bothered out of a membership of 500,000 don't expect too many to be out knocking doors, although as I've said in the past, that might not be a bad thing anyway given the impression I've had of most of these people so far.

 

Even more worrying was that a lot of them seemed to have no interest in the official conference at all and instead spent al day at the "momentum" or other hard left events around the City.

 

36 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Massively depressing. I was fully intending to get actively involved in the Labour Party again, but I'm not going to spend my precious spare time arguing with a load of unaware, uncompromising, sometimes hostile people with closed minds. I doubt if I'd even vote Labour if there was an election tomorrow. Who I'd vote for, I've no idea: Lib Dems? Protest vote for the Greens (who don't seem to be moving forward either)?

If you can't vote for the Labour party at the minute I dread to think how they are going down with centre left and swing voters across the country. 

 

I don't think anyone outside the cult really thinks they stand a chance of winning anything anytime soon.

[SMX11]

Appears Mrs May is horrible statist....and people are suprised *rolls eyes*

[leicsmac]

 “If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere.”

 

Or perhaps, Mrs May, such people reject the idea of that distinction and all the needless, petty bullshit that results from it, in the past and now.

 

[fuchsntf]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 “If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere.”

 

Or perhaps, Mrs May, such people reject the idea of that distinction and all the needless, petty bullshit that results from it, in the past and now.

 

The world is bigger than Britain..

So happy to be a citizen.

I dont like boundaries,or  over zealous own country patriotism.

Although one reason the EU struggles to many nationalists Holding the reigns.

Peace has never been given a chance, but I will carrying on Imagining, with a smile on my ....

[The Railway Man]

Watson has already sort of mentioned it but in all seriousness where the **** is Jeremy Corbyn?

 

His party is being battered from pilar to post and he seems to have literally vanished off the face of the earth.

[The Doctor]

8 minutes ago, The Railway Man said:

Watson has already sort of mentioned it but in all seriousness where the **** is Jeremy Corbyn?

 

His party is being battered from pilar to post and he seems to have literally vanished off the face of the earth.

Running a bike exchange for the homeless...

 

 

Steven Woolfe hospitalised while Farage was in the european parliament. After the headlines of him declaring himself leader yesterday, it all feels like the end of Godfather where pacino is sat in the church while everyone gets bumped off.

[The Railway Man]

20 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Running a bike exchange for the homeless...

 

 

Steven Woolfe hospitalised while Farage was in the european parliament. After the headlines of him declaring himself leader yesterday, it all feels like the end of Godfather where pacino is sat in the church while everyone gets bumped off.

This sounds absolutely mental, in a serious condition in hospital after being punched numerous times by a colleague.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Right who put a curse on UKIP? Own up.

[Finnaldo]

>Labour unelectable due to infighting

 

>UKIP meeting of MEPs end in one being taken to hospital with reported bleed on the brain.

 

 

God save British politics.

[The Railway Man]

 

 

Apparantly he was punched by a guy called Mike Hookam because of Woolfe claiming a few weeks ago he considered joining the Tories.

[Alf Bentley]

22 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I've not seen much of Woolfe, but wonder how he'd go down with women voters. He might appeal to working-class ex-Lab men, but he comes across as quite macho and slightly aggressive - might put off a fair few women.

 

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

Steven Woolfe hospitalised while Farage was in the european parliament. 

 

Sounds like Woolfe met someone a bit more macho and aggressive than him..... Bleeding on the brain sounds a bit serious.

Honestly, if you wrote a factual account about British politics just now and handed it to a fiction publisher, they'd refuse to publish it on the grounds that the fiction was too fantastical to have credibility.