USA 2016 Presidential Election Thread

[Webbo]

Trump isn't a conservative, he's a right wing populist.

He's less right wing than Rubio or Cruz.

[MPH]

Exactly. Which is why practically every single woman, for instance, should really vote Democrat regardless of whether a woman is or is not the Democratic candidate, considering a reasonably critical difference between the parties core values regarding religious influence and its effect on women across the country.

 

/controversial facetiousness

 

 

 

 

 

My wife has categorically stated that over her dead body will her name ever be associated with the democratic party... 

[Guest MattP]

Exactly. Which is why practically every single woman, for instance, should really vote Democrat regardless of whether a woman is or is not the Democratic candidate, considering a reasonably critical difference between the parties core values regarding religious influence and its effect on women across the country.

 

Unless Sanders gets the nomination, then every single woman should really be voting Republican given the things he has not only thought about women, but what he's actually written down. A bit twisted to say the least.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/05/28/bernie-sanders-once-wrote-that-women-fantasize-about-being-gang-raped/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/05/29/bernie-sanders-disowns-1972-article-on-womens-fantasies-of-rape/?_r=0

[Harry - LCFC]

He's less right wing than Rubio or Cruz.

 

Populist is the word I'd emphasise, we could call him a populist on the right if that sounds better.

 

But yes you're right, I've heard him advocate for policies that make him sound more like a Democrat.

[Jattdogg]

My wife has categorically stated that over her dead body will her name ever be associated with the democratic party...

So if republicans said they would raise taxes by 20% and not allow you to retire until 70 she would vote for them just cuz she cant ever vote for the dems?

[MC Prussian]

He's less right wing than Rubio or Cruz.

 

He's less than anyone or anything. Guy's got less of a program than his four three two major opponents within the Republican ranks put together.

 

A guy who turns a campaign tour into an expedition into a Trump catalogue, who incites hatred and violence at his rallies and who comes across as both bizarre, divisive and ambiguous.

That he's gotten this far is an insult to politics in general. But I also blame the Republicans for ridiculing him without attacking him on a sensible basis, failing to take apart what he stands for and what the cornerstones of his politics are.

 

He talks the way of the money, but can he talk the way of World politics?

Imagine how embarrassing it'd be if he was to be part of the G8 or G7, meeting with mostly intelligent people.

[Guest MattP]

He's less than anyone or anything. Guy's got less of a program than his four three two major opponents within the Republican ranks put together.

 

A guy who turns a campaign tour into an expedition into a Trump catalogue, who incites hatred and violence at his rallies and who comes across as both bizarre, divisive and ambiguous.

That he's gotten this far is an insult to politics in general. But I also blame the Republicans for ridiculing him without attacking him on a sensible basis, failing to take apart what he stands for and what the cornerstones of his politics are.

 

He talks the way of the money, but can he talk the way of World politics?

Imagine how embarrassing it'd be if he was to be part of the G8 or G7, meeting with mostly intelligent people.

 

Seriously? The only people I've seen inciting violence at the rallies have been the been turning up protest against him. One guy even tried to storm the stage.

[leicsmac]

My wife has categorically stated that over her dead body will her name ever be associated with the democratic party... 

 

Yeah, I was just stirring the pot a bit. Of course there will be some ladies who are a fan of Repub policy.

 

But there are some elements within that party who firmly believe that women should be compliant, subjugated and obedient to their husbands or fathers (or both) and that this is the core of a happy family. As well as disallowing women to make health choices regarding their own body. I mean, free will and all but some women go for that?

 

Unless Sanders gets the nomination, then every single woman should really be voting Republican given the things he has not only thought about women, but what he's actually written down. A bit twisted to say the least.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/05/28/bernie-sanders-once-wrote-that-women-fantasize-about-being-gang-raped/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/05/29/bernie-sanders-disowns-1972-article-on-womens-fantasies-of-rape/?_r=0

 

Eish Bernie, that's fvcked up. It's also 44 years ago.

 

In any case, the discussion was specifically regarding the core values of the party, not the candidate. And, frankly, the Dems do a hell of a lot more to extend and protect womens rights at a social level than the Repubs do.

 

Seriously? The only people I've seen inciting violence at the rallies have been the been turning up protest against him. One guy even tried to storm the stage.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12193995/Donald-Trump-may-face-charges-for-inciting-a-riot-over-violence-at-rally.html

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272923-authorities-consider-charging-trump-with-inciting

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/11/could-donald-trump-be-held-legally-responsible-for-inciting-violence-at-his-rallies/

 

Are you saying that every time Trump has said stuff like this, it has been either in response to someone advocating violence directly at him at a rally, or a direct physical threat (eg. a protestor starting a fight in the crowd, rather than being started on just for booing or saying something)?

 

Permit me a little skepticism regarding that. Trump's style is confrontational, I think that's pretty obvious.

[ajthefox]

 

Video of Trump stating he identifies more as a democrat than a republican in 2004 and endorsing Hillary (amongst others) in 2007.

 

People's views obviously change over time, but I would guess that people rarely make significant movements one way or the other much beyond their 30's. 

In any case, moving enough to want to vote differently is a different matter to going from identifying as Democrat to coming out with some of the stuff Trump has been.

 

It just shows that his horrendous, bigoted, far-right comments do not accurately reflect the position of his policies.

[Carl the Llama]

Seriously? The only people I've seen inciting violence at the rallies have been the been turning up protest against him. One guy even tried to storm the stage.

Wow.  I mean come on.

 

If you don't want to watch those videos you'll at least like this one since it begins by taking aim at Clinton as well as Drumpf::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJzrRfG1JNc&feature=player_embedded

[Buce]

Trump presidency is one of 'top ten global risks':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35828747

[Guest MattP]

Are you saying that every time Trump has said stuff like this, it has been either in response to someone advocating violence directly at him at a rally, or a direct physical threat (eg. a protestor starting a fight in the crowd, rather than being started on just for booing or saying something)?

 

Permit me a little skepticism regarding that. Trump's style is confrontational, I think that's pretty obvious.

 

Confrontational yes, but I don't think he's actually inciting anyone to commit violence, certainly no more than anyone is actually turning up to protest at a political rally from the opposition.

 

Trump presidency is one of 'top ten global risks':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35828747

 

Although lower than a break up of the Euro, which could be hugely positive long term

[leicsmac]

Confrontational yes, but I don't think he's actually inciting anyone to commit violence, certainly no more than anyone is actually turning up to protest at a political rally from the opposition.

 

 

Although lower than a break up of the Euro, which could be hugely positive long term

 

Then we must disagree, as evidenced by the links I sent.

 

And if someone comes to a political rally and speaks out (in a calm and nonconfrontational manner, that is), their safety and the response of the supporters is still partly the responsibility of the person holding the rally. I'd say the same thing if a guy exposed a Confederate flag T-shirt, started yelling and then got sparked out at a Dem candidate rally.

[MPH]

Yeah, I was just stirring the pot a bit. Of course there will be some ladies who are a fan of Repub policy.

 

But there are some elements within that party who firmly believe that women should be compliant, subjugated and obedient to their husbands or fathers (or both) and that this is the core of a happy family. As well as disallowing women to make health choices regarding their own body. I mean, free will and all but some women go for that?

 

 

 

 

 

I guess they see The baby inside of them and recognize it has rights too

[Carl the Llama]

Matt the bottom line is that saying Drumpf hasn't incited violence is like arguing that black is white.  You just look like a parody blindly defending anything vaguely right-wing related.  Let's break it down, with a few separate occasions off the top of my head:

 

He refused to disavow an endorsement from the head of the KKK claiming he doesn't know who the guy is despite the existence of archived TV footage proving without a doubt that he knows the man.

 

He's been filmed lamenting that protesters aren't treated as roughly as they used to be.  

 

He's been filmed outright encouraging his supporters to knock protesters out if they see any before proceeding to promise to cover any legal bills that may result from this course of action and stating that the courts would endorse their behaviour too.

 

He's been filmed talking about how he wants to punch a protester in the face.

 

He's been recorded on live news saying that a protester who got beat up maybe deserved it.

 

That's not even taking into account the numerous repeated divisive remarks about Mexicans and all of South America, China, and Muslims.

 

The man's a menace and a hate monger, to claim otherwise is outright lying or a baffling demonstration of wilful ignorance.

 

The worst bit of it all is we all know that if this was some leftist politician doing and saying these things you'd be the first in line gleefully using it as a stick to beat the entire left-wing spectrum with but instead you're denying it's even happened.  What a joke.

[leicsmac]

I guess they see The baby inside of them and recognize it has rights too

Absolutely. A woman has rights to her bodily integrity (as she would if she had to give blood or organs to save or maintain a life), and a baby also has the right to be protected.

The choice between which of those two rights is superior, when they clash, should not be legislated and set in stone. The choice should be free, either way - as again, it is if someone is called to save or maintain a life through compromising their own body in some other fashion.

That choice for women exists now, and some repubs wish to take it away. As some of them also insist on male led families with inhibited freedom of choice for any and all female members.

(Note my careful use of the word "some" here, please. I know that many republicans are socially quite liberal.)

You'll never convince me that that particular brand of social conservatism is anything other than nasty, but if that's what they want, then I'm not wanting to take it away. Just don't let it affect the rest of the US populace.

[Guest MattP]

Then we must disagree, as evidenced by the links I sent.

 

And if someone comes to a political rally and speaks out (in a calm and nonconfrontational manner, that is), their safety and the response of the supporters is still partly the responsibility of the person holding the rally. I'd say the same thing if a guy exposed a Confederate flag T-shirt, started yelling and then got sparked out at a Dem candidate rally.

 

I think the responsibilty for any violence lies on the people actually commiting the acts rather than the person standing on the stage speaking, although I know we have very different opinions on individual responsibility for actions.

[MC Prussian]

I think the responsibilty for any violence lies on the people actually commiting the acts rather than the person standing on the stage speaking, although I know we have very different opinions on individual responsibility for actions.

You seem to have missed the actio=reactio equation at school, Matt.

 

Would the violence have erupted this way or at all if Drumpf hadn't called for it beforehand?

[Guest MattP]

You seem to have missed the actio=reactio equation at school, Matt.

 

Would the violence have erupted this way or at all if Drumpf hadn't called for it beforehand?

 

Possibly, there is often violence at US political rallies, it's not a new thing, regular in the 1970's. But if we drop some acid we can all pretend it's a new thing and even try and blame Donald Trump for it rather than the individuals themselves.

 

I mean whenever I hear him talk I just feel a need to punch a Democrat in the face, not my fault if it happens.

[leicsmac]

I think the responsibilty for any violence lies on the people actually commiting the acts rather than the person standing on the stage speaking, although I know we have very different opinions on individual responsibility for actions.

What Prussian said, though I will add that words are important to the impressionable and not everyone had the self control and will to not follow what a charismatic leader might say.

Care to answer the links that myself, Carl et al have provided regarding Trump inciting violence?

[Guest MattP]

What Prussian said, though I will add that words are important to the impressionable and not everyone had the self control and will to not follow what a charismatic leader might say.

Care to answer the links that myself, Carl et al have provided regarding Trump inciting violence?

 

Yes, it's speculation and I would be astonished if was seriously charged with inciting a riot, the ramifications for free speech would be injurious, if he somehow was I'm sure it would be laughed out of any courtroom.

 

What next? Charge Jeremy Corbyn with affray for his words when the students go on a rampage through London? It's absolutely pathetic and I can't even be bothered to enter a serious discussion about it. I hate the excuse culture the World has developed.

[leicsmac]

Yes, it's speculation and I would be astonished if was seriously charged with inciting a riot, the ramifications for free speech would be injurious, if he somehow was I'm sure it would be laughed out of any courtroom.

What next? Charge Jeremy Corbyn with affray for his words when the students go on a rampage through London? It's absolutely pathetic and I can't even be bothered to enter a serious discussion about it. I hate the excuse culture the World has developed.

Fair enough. I think that offering to pay the legal fees of those who use violence at his rallies crosses a line. But you can argue the "he started it, no he started it" line till the cows come home and it wouldn't hold up in court.

Personally, I'm more worried about any discriminatory legislation that he would pass if and when he got into office, as that would have real, tangible consequences.

Edit: And some of what Carl said on the previous page falls under verified fact, as opposed to speculation. Or is it all just rhetoric and he means nothing about what he says and wouldn't follow through?

[Carl the Llama]

Why was my last comment deleted?  Look at the white text.

 

Still, I'm glad at least one of the mods disagrees with the notion that people aren't responsible for inciting violence through hateful speech.

[Carl the Llama]

Though of course after posting that and drawing attention to the hidden text there's no point restoring my comment because it won't have the desired effect which is a shame because I was genuinely interested in the response my mini social study would have elicited.

[sphericalfox]