AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 14 minutes ago, leicsmac said: To be fair, it doesn't seem that this administration needs to spend the money on doing so - they're doing a perfectly inhumane job with what they have, if that report is correct. Surely discouraging illegal immigration would help prevent such things? Unless you think it would be better to dispense immediately with borders and nation states and see what happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 2 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Surely discouraging illegal immigration would help prevent such things? Unless you think it would be better to dispense immediately with borders and nation states and see what happens? All of the people arriving at the US border to seek asylum are doing so legally under US and international law - of course one might assume that some or many of them are not there for that purpose, but in absence of psychic ability that cannot be proven until each case is actually examined. There is nothing illegal about any of that. Of course, the US government are free to treat - or mistreat - such applicants as they wish, but then perhaps they should reconsider their bluster of paragons of virtue and exceptionalism when they do. WRT the second sentence, burn that strawman somewhere else, if you'd be so good - this is about the conditions a supposedly civilised country grants some of those seeking a place there, not about the ethics of immigration and the nation state per se. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 15 minutes ago, leicsmac said: All of the people arriving at the US border to seek asylum are doing so legally under US and international law - of course one might assume that some or many of them are not there for that purpose, but in absence of psychic ability that cannot be proven until each case is actually examined. There is nothing illegal about any of that. Of course, the US government are free to treat - or mistreat - such applicants as they wish, but then perhaps they should reconsider their bluster of paragons of virtue and exceptionalism when they do. WRT the second sentence, burn that strawman somewhere else, if you'd be so good - this is about the conditions a supposedly civilised country grants some of those seeking a place there, not about the ethics of immigration and the nation state per se. The border patrol officer quoted there is speaking like they are just overwhelmed by the numbers, blamed congress for failing to act on illegal immigration. Sounds like you didnt even read that bit? Or glossed over it for some reason? And its not like he spoke without empathy for them. If they are fleeing Guatemala as refugees why go to the USA? They cross through other countries that could grant asylum. Because of economic benefit, thats why. Im not begrudging them that, do what you have to do, fact of life, but lets call it what it is. Those conditions sound bad. But they are not on the books so how should there be conditions to provide for them? I dont really know what your solution is that makes what I said a straw man. What do you want the govt. to do? Cheapest solution is probably to try to prevent such a high number of people attempting to get in rather than process such large numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 8 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: The border patrol officer quoted there is speaking like they are just overwhelmed by the numbers, blamed congress for failing to act on illegal immigration. Sounds like you didnt even read that bit? Or glossed over it for some reason? And its not like he spoke without empathy for them. If they are fleeing Guatemala as refugees why go to the USA? They cross through other countries that could grant asylum. Because of economic benefit, thats why. Im not begrudging them that, do what you have to do, fact of life, but lets call it what it is. Those conditions sound bad. But they are not on the books so how should there be conditions to provide for them? I dont really know what your solution is that makes what I said a straw man. What do you want the govt. to do? Cheapest solution is probably to try to prevent such a high number of people attempting to get in rather than process such large numbers Allow me to clarify as I did note that particular part - I don't blame the border workers themselves for much of this situation, not outside when they're actively getting a kick out of the mistreatment which I'm hoping doesn't happen often, but Congress, yes. And who, at this point in time, holds the purse strings and the executive power in that area? Like I said, you might be right about the economic factors, but you can't know that for a certainty and they are presenting themselves at the border legally. Even if such methods were illegal, does that warrant mistreatment without due process? A country with the vast economic resources the US has should at least be able to halfway provide for those seeking to enter - they choose not to for political aims. That's their choice and fair enough, but they shouldn't then turn round and make any claim to moral superiority. The strawman part was the reference to borders and nation states that I had made zero reference to in this post. This is probably a strawman of my own, but: that last sentence and the emphasis on cheapness sounds like how one would deal with an infestation of rodents or insects rather than people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jattdogg Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 4 hours ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-48651131 Don is of course welcome to weigh in on London crime matters and lay them at Khan's door. Others are of course welcome to weigh in on American school shootings and lay them at Trump's door. All politicians can do a bad job including Khan but worry about your own city given its much worse according to those stats. Hate to say it but if khan wasnt muslim i dont know if we would see these same tweets from Trump. I know they both dont like eachother and both can play into their respective bases but come on people less tweeting and more working! Also that Londonistan comment is cringe from hopkins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Allow me to clarify as I did note that particular part - I don't blame the border workers themselves for much of this situation, not outside when they're actively getting a kick out of the mistreatment which I'm hoping doesn't happen often, but Congress, yes. And who, at this point in time, holds the purse strings and the executive power in that area? Like I said, you might be right about the economic factors, but you can't know that for a certainty and they are presenting themselves at the border legally. Even if such methods were illegal, does that warrant mistreatment without due process? A country with the vast economic resources the US has should at least be able to halfway provide for those seeking to enter - they choose not to for political aims. That's their choice and fair enough, but they shouldn't then turn round and make any claim to moral superiority. The strawman part was the reference to borders and nation states that I had made zero reference to in this post. This is probably a strawman of my own, but: that last sentence and the emphasis on cheapness sounds like how one would deal with an infestation of rodents or insects rather than people. Cheapness is how one approaches shopping for food aswell as every other purchase in life. Im not the one using the rodents comparison, so yes, strawman there But the border guy was criticisig congress for being loose on immigration, not for the conditions directly at the border. His criticism of them is almost opposite to yours I agree with you that a wealthy country should not have deprivation in a governent institution. But they can go one of 2 ways cant they? Fix things to accomodate for all immigrants, or try to prevent them from coming in the first place. Actually, a 3rd option of leaving things as they are - lots of immigrants coming through and suffering those conditions at the border I think one of the 1st 2 options obvs and am not convinced the 2nd option wouldnt be the best for all parties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 8 minutes ago, Jattdogg said: All politicians can do a bad job including Khan but worry about your own city given its much worse according to those stats. Hate to say it but if khan wasnt muslim i dont know if we would see these same tweets from Trump. I know they both dont like eachother and both can play into their respective bases but come on people less tweeting and more working! Also that Londonistan comment is cringe from hopkins. It's blatant racism and the PUSA is retweeting it... There is apparently no bar too low. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 5 hours ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-48651131 Don is of course welcome to weigh in on London crime matters and lay them at Khan's door. Others are of course welcome to weigh in on American school shootings and lay them at Trump's door. Interesting chart in Metro: https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/16/murder-graph-shows-london-killings-compare-us-cities-9971033/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 16 June 2019 Share Posted 16 June 2019 6 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Cheapness is how one approaches shopping for food aswell as every other purchase in life. Im not the one using the rodents comparison, so yes, strawman there But the border guy was criticisig congress for being loose on immigration, not for the conditions directly at the border. His criticism of them is almost opposite to yours I agree with you that a wealthy country should not have deprivation in a governent institution. But they can go one of 2 ways cant they? Fix things to accomodate for all immigrants, or try to prevent them from coming in the first place. Actually, a 3rd option of leaving things as they are - lots of immigrants coming through and suffering those conditions at the border I think one of the 1st 2 options obvs and am not convinced the 2nd option wouldnt be the best for all parties Thank you for the clarification on the first sentence. Absolutely the border guy was doing as you say - but I still don't blame him, if he has that attitude then that's up to him as long as it doesn't interfere with his work in the form of mistreatment. It's his paymasters who are responsible. I'd evidently prefer the first option you suggest considering the resources the US has and simple humanitarian interest, but again I'm going to state that the US are free to set policy on this as they like, but they shouldn't be surprised when they get called out for hypocrisy and double standards when they ("they" only being those Americans that do it, obviously) try to purport themselves as "champions of the free world" or somesuch. 12 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: It's blatant racism and the PUSA is retweeting it... There is apparently no bar too low. Dog-whistle. Well calculated one, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 17 June 2019 Share Posted 17 June 2019 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48656431 This....isn't an Onion headline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 17 June 2019 Share Posted 17 June 2019 22 minutes ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48656431 This....isn't an Onion headline? I’m sure you’ll see the irony in this but, along with the DMZ in Korea, the Golan has become a biodiversity hotspot because so much of it is off-limits to humans because of minefields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 17 June 2019 Share Posted 17 June 2019 9 minutes ago, Buce said: I’m sure you’ll see the irony in this but, along with the DMZ in Korea, the Golan has become a biodiversity hotspot because so much of it is off-limits to humans because of minefields. Yep, and in a way that gives reinforcement to my thoughts that though humans can mess up this planet pretty good, if we do eventually cross the line and destroy ourselves as a result then it won't actually take that much time for other species of various types that are left to reclaim their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 California is going down the drains. Poverty, homelessness, failing infrastructure and a poor schooling system, plus a plethora of illegal immigrants (about two million at least), and 40% of the population are of Hispanic background. http://www.capradio.org/articles/2018/09/12/california-has-one-of-the-nations-highest-poverty-rates-again/ https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/politics/2019/01/09/top-issues-facing-california-s-state-government-this-session Colorado's decision to legalize marijuana for people aged 21 and above is coming with its own side issues: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/potent-pot-vulnerable-teens-trigger-concerns-in-first-states-to-legalize-marijuana/2019/06/15/52df638a-8c9a-11e9-8f69-a2795fca3343_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.db2c4361bd70 Meanwhile, still no sign of relief in terms of fixing the failing and aging US infrastructure: https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3?r=US&IR=T https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/17/us/crumbling-american-infrastructure/index.html Third-World Country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MC Prussian said: California is going down the drains. Poverty, homelessness, failing infrastructure and a poor schooling system, plus a plethora of illegal immigrants (about two million at least), and 40% of the population are of Hispanic background. Third-World Country. Interesting that you choose to conflate these things. Edited 18 June 2019 by Buce 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 42 minutes ago, Buce said: Interesting that you choose to conflate these things. Interesting that you see conflation in my statement. Interesting to see that you failed to address the inherent issues in California mentioned in my post. Crime rates in California (look at the percentages): https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/California-arrest-rates-at-historic-lows-racial-13440702.php Poverty rates among Hispanics in California (2016, 2nd to last paragraph): https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ Add to that the drug trafficking and the influence of Mexican cartels in California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 (edited) Of course they remain allegations at this moment in time - but what a lovely chap https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/claim-alex-jones-child-sex-abuse-images-sandy-hook-victims Edited 18 June 2019 by David Guiza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 Anybody seen that Joe Biden's claimed the USA will eradicate cancer if he gets elected President? I know it's a strong personal issue for him but wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mister Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 Donald Trump is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Buce Posted 18 June 2019 Popular Post Share Posted 18 June 2019 3 hours ago, MC Prussian said: Interesting that you see conflation in my statement. It's difficult not to - it isn't every day someone finally gives up even pretending they're not a racist. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 4 hours ago, David Guiza said: Of course they remain allegations at this moment in time - but what a lovely chap https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/claim-alex-jones-child-sex-abuse-images-sandy-hook-victims Don't worry, if it's true it's all for the lulz and is just trolling....right? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buce said: It's difficult not to - it isn't every day someone finally gives up even pretending they're not a racist. No, it has nothing to do with crime, drugs and poverty among the Hispanic population in California. I gave you a number of core issues the state is hit with, and that was/is a part of it (among many others). But happy for you for being able to dish out the "racism" tag again, greatly assisting in diluting its actual meaning. If facts don't matter anymore, just hit them with your feeling or opinion. It's more suitable that way. Kills all discussion instantly. I salute you. Edited 18 June 2019 by MC Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SO1 Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 7 hours ago, MC Prussian said: California is going down the drains. Poverty, homelessness, failing infrastructure and a poor schooling system, plus a plethora of illegal immigrants (about two million at least), and 40% of the population are of Hispanic background. http://www.capradio.org/articles/2018/09/12/california-has-one-of-the-nations-highest-poverty-rates-again/ https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/politics/2019/01/09/top-issues-facing-california-s-state-government-this-session Colorado's decision to legalize marijuana for people aged 21 and above is coming with its own side issues: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/potent-pot-vulnerable-teens-trigger-concerns-in-first-states-to-legalize-marijuana/2019/06/15/52df638a-8c9a-11e9-8f69-a2795fca3343_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.db2c4361bd70 Meanwhile, still no sign of relief in terms of fixing the failing and aging US infrastructure: https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3?r=US&IR=T https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/17/us/crumbling-american-infrastructure/index.html Third-World Country. Interesting how the populations of the US are reverting back to the time before the Europeans invaded. Only a matter of time before the Southwestern US will be back in Mexico's hands. Only the veneer of Democracy and Wealth. Third World Country for a while now. Especially if you belong to the wage class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SO1 Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 5 hours ago, MC Prussian said: Interesting that you see conflation in my statement. Interesting to see that you failed to address the inherent issues in California mentioned in my post. Crime rates in California (look at the percentages): https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/California-arrest-rates-at-historic-lows-racial-13440702.php Poverty rates among Hispanics in California (2016, 2nd to last paragraph): https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ Add to that the drug trafficking and the influence of Mexican cartels in California. Sad that it really is just economic. A problem that could be solved with less greed and war. Instead they just leave us to fight over the crumbs left on the table and call it racism or whatever to divide us even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 6 minutes ago, MC Prussian said: No, it has nothing to do with crime, drugs and poverty among the Hispanic population in California. I gave you a number of core issues the state is hit with, and that was/is a part of it (among many others). But happy for you for being able to dish out the "racism" tag again, greatly assisting in diluting its actual meaning. If facts don't matter anymore, just hit them with your feeling or opinion. It's more suitable that way. Kills all discussion instantly. I salute you. You asserted that... 7 hours ago, MC Prussian said: California is going down the drains. ..and added a list of things to support that assertion... 7 hours ago, MC Prussian said: Poverty, homelessness, failing infrastructure and a poor schooling system, plus a plethora of illegal immigrants (about two million at least), and 40% of the population are of Hispanic background. ... quite clearly conflating an entire ethnic demographic with all the other reasons that evidence California 'going down the drains'. You labelled yourself a racist by your own words (not that anyone ever doubted it, I'm sure, but it's good to see it confirmed), so don't try and play the innocent victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SO1 Posted 18 June 2019 Share Posted 18 June 2019 5 hours ago, David Guiza said: Of course they remain allegations at this moment in time - but what a lovely chap https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/claim-alex-jones-child-sex-abuse-images-sandy-hook-victims I'm not especially in love with Alex Jones. Don't think anyone in this day and age can trust anything that comes from a computer, camera, phone etc. All can be manipulated and falsified with ease by the powers that be. Believe what you want to believe. Time to trust our own instincts. Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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