Trouble in Madrid

[Thracian]

1 hour ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

And me. Agreed. I have no problem with it being called immoral, I take issue with it being called ineffective 

 

It's not immoral to the Spanish and we were in Spain.

I thought Spain was part of the EU and therefore subject to the same Human Rights legislation. Things like a right not to suffer "degrading treatment" or the right to be considered "innocent until proven guilty". Or is it a matter of Spain doing what the hell they like because it's Spain?    

Edited 15 April 2017 by Thracian

[st albans fox]

Presumably the flares and firecrackers must  been bought in Spain??

 

 

[Manwell Pablo]

1 hour ago, Thracian said:

I thought Spain was part of the EU and therefore subject to the same Human Rights legislation. Things like a right not to suffer "degrading treatment" or the right to be considered "innocent until proven guilty". Or is it a matter of Spain doing what the hell they like because it's Spain?    

 

You sort of forefit that right when your part of a hostile crowd throwing things dangerous implements at police, no matter how much direct involvement you have. There are EU rules on preventing mass disturbance, they didn't break any.

 

nothing to do with it being strictly Spain either, remember the absolute thrashing united fans got from a similar Italian division in Rome for charging Roma fans? 

Edited 15 April 2017 by Manwell Pablo

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Thracian said:

I thought Spain was part of the EU and therefore subject to the same Human Rights legislation. Things like a right not to suffer "degrading treatment" or the right to be considered "innocent until proven guilty". Or is it a matter of Spain doing what the hell they like because it's Spain?    

With the greatest of respect Thrac, your quoting and therefore at least accepting the existence of EU Human Rights legislation to aid your argument about the treatment of Leicester fans is so ironic I could set it spinning and generate a magnetic field.

[Thracian]

1 minute ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

You sort of forefit that right when your part of a hostile crowd throwing things dangerous implements at police, no matter how much direct involvement you have. There are EU rules on preventing mass disturbance, they didn't break any.

Being part of a "hostile crowd" and sitting minding your own business when a "hostile crowd" materialises and passes by, is entirely different.

 

  

 

     

[Thracian]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

With the greatest of respect Thrac, your quoting and therefore at least accepting the existence of EU Human Rights legislation to aid your argument about the treatment of Leicester fans is so ironic I could set it spinning and generate a magnetic field.

You don't need to - I've openly stated that I'm not a fan of human rights legislation as it stands.

 

However, that's the law as it stands and, as you know, I gladly voted for us to leave the EU and the actions of the Spanish law enforcers only serve to emphasise that choice.

 

Indeed if the various nations choose only to act on the legislation they like there's not much point in having EU-encompassing law at all. Nor any law which is ambiguous or which doesn't protect people from being indiscriminately whacked by loose canons with batons.

 

Quite apart from anything else hitting  innocent people with batons is highly irresponsible and potentially inflamatory.

 

 

.     

[Manwell Pablo]

3 minutes ago, Thracian said:

Being part of a "hostile crowd" and sitting minding your own business when a "hostile crowd" materialises and passes by, is entirely different.

 

  

 

     

 

Agreed found myself in that exact same situation. I knew exactly how to deal with it though and that's fcking run as fast as you can. They aren't exactly the quickest moving unless the situation is extremely violent the minute you see them march you go, don't reason certainly don't stand their with your hands in the air which is what a lot of those unfairly hurt did, you get out their way. That's ultimately all the want you to do.

 

You can pick the bones out of it all all you want but that is how they deal with situations like that in Southern Europe, for someone who preaches the need for visitors and immigrants to this country to accept our rules and our way of life and intergrate your stance is a bit hypocritical.

[Thracian]

18 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Agreed found myself in that exact same situation. I knew exactly how to deal with it though and that's fcking run as fast as you can. They aren't exactly the quickest moving unless the situation is extremely violent the minute you see them march you go, don't reason certainly don't stand their with your hands in the air which is what a lot of those unfairly hurt did, you get out their way. That's ultimately all the want you to do.

 

You can pick the bones out of it all all you want but that is how they deal with situations like that in Southern Europe, for someone who preaches the need for visitors and immigrants to this country to accept our rules and our way of life and intergrate your stance is a bit hypocritical.

 

But our rules are supposed to be their rules on this issue. And while I see no point in linking the issue to the immigration debate I can promise you that I'd be just as angry to see an innocent/uninvolved  immigrant being unfairly whacked with a baton as seeing anyone else being struck.

 

I detest bullies of all kinds and will never forget seeing a copper whack a (presumably) junior school kiddie at a Derby-Leicester game some seasons back for no reason I ever understood. The kid looked about 10, skinny as a wishbone, and about as intimidating as a waste paper bin.

 

 

 

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Edited 15 April 2017 by Thracian

[Manwell Pablo]

25 minutes ago, Thracian said:

 

But our rules are supposed to be their rules on this issue. And while I see no point in linking the issue to the immigration debate I can promise you that I'd be just as angry to see an innocent/uninvolved  immigrant being unfairly whacked with a baton as seeing anyone else being struck.

 

I detest bullies of all kinds and will never forget seeing a copper whack a (presumably) junior school kiddie at a Derby-Leicester game some seasons back for no reason I ever understood. The kid looked about 10, skinny as a wishbone, and about as intimidating as a waste paper bin.

 

 

 

   . 

 

No our rules regarding riot management are tougher than those of baseline EU ones assuming such a thing exists. The fact we try to deal with situations more linieantly is British law and police training. I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about it but suffice to say if this kind of riot policing against civil disorder was not allowed the EU would probably have had something to say over the 40+ years it's been carried out in various circumstances.

 

Completely, you have to remember this is a reaction to having implements thrown at them and from what I gather they put up with a fair amount of shit throughout the day, in regards to weds at least. It's not like they beat us up unprovoked and took our lunch money. Ok saying go after the priks that did it but they just retreat into the crowd. It's well over the top from my own political views, I believe that kind of policing has no place In modern society. but it was not bullying. I'd actually say throwing dangerous implements because you think you outnumber the police and in your drunken idiotic mind think every Leicester fan will back you up if a row kicks off and therefore can get away with it is closer to that. The actions of some of our fans also has no place in modern society, it was classless.

[purpleronnie]

True, we let them riot and then send people to prison for stealing a bottle of water.  

Edited 15 April 2017 by purpleronnie

[Legend_in_blue]

I posted yesterday about the way in which the Spanish police force works.  To continue to go on and on about what they did was wrong - it's what they do, like it or not, that's how they clear people out.  Whether it's right or wrong is irrelevant to them, they're just carrying out instructions.  Clear the area.

 

They do that, you get out.

 

It is a criminal offence to swear at a policeman in Spain.  It is an arrestable offence.  I'd say looking at the evidence of Wednesday, they took a fair amount of that, without retaliating before they saw red and got heavy-handed with those in the square.  That in itself, from their perspective, is showing a fair amount of tolerance.

 

They're known for being heavy handed, aggressive, and they do what they want.  It's best to steer clear and find a quiet part of town.

 

 

[Guest Lako42]

6 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

 

It's not immoral to the Spanish and we were in Spain.

I can guarantee that it is as I live with one. 

[Manwell Pablo]

11 minutes ago, Lako42 said:

I can guarantee that it is as I live with one. 

 

 I mean without getting into specifics you think you can speak for an entire nation because as you ever so articulately put it live with "one". Not only that you can guarantee it?

[Thracian]

2 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

No our rules regarding riot management are tougher than those of baseline EU ones assuming such a thing exists. The fact we try to deal with situations more linieantly is British law and police training. I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about it but suffice to say if this kind of riot policing against civil disorder was not allowed the EU would probably have had something to say over the 40+ years it's been carried out in various circumstances.

 

Completely, you have to remember this is a reaction to having implements thrown at them and from what I gather they put up with a fair amount of shit throughout the day, in regards to weds at least. It's not like they beat us up unprovoked and took our lunch money. Ok saying go after the priks that did it but they just retreat into the crowd. It's well over the top from my own political views, I believe that kind of policing has no place In modern society. but it was not bullying. I'd actually say throwing dangerous implements because you think you outnumber the police and in your drunken idiotic mind think every Leicester fan will back you up if a row kicks off and therefore can get away with it is closer to that. The actions of some of our fans also has no place in modern society, it was classless.

Nowhere have I tried to defend the troublemakers. I think society too often abdicates its responsibility regarding people who are repeatedly violent. Just like terrorists, so many have "previous" but turn up again and again. My entire focus is on indiscriminate "law enforcement" which I believe to be entirely wrong and totally indefensible.

 

I know and you know the law enforcers are perfectly capable of acting responsibly and taking the sting out of most situations if they choose to. But a lot of the best work is down to prevention in the first place. Not only at football matches but in society in general. 

 

 

.             

[kingcarr21]

My battle scar from Madrid. 

[kingcarr21]

I will add I got whacked for no reason. Sat outside a bar when it all kicked off and I tried to get inside the bar. They stopped us and as I was hanging outside the door of the bar I got whacked. They were smacking anyone in front of them, kids and adults in wheelchairs took a whack. Absolutely pathetic

[Nick]

3 hours ago, kingcarr21 said:

My battle scar from Madrid. 

 

Are you gonna be okay mate?

 

 

[kingcarr21]

6 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

Are you gonna be okay mate?

 

 

It's touch and go but I'm fighting with every ounce of strength I've got. I will not be beaten  

[Nick]

1 minute ago, kingcarr21 said:

It's touch and go but I'm fighting with every ounce of strength I've got. I will not be beaten  

? 

 

I disagree - you've definitely been beaten.

Edited 16 April 2017 by Nick

[kingcarr21]

1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

? 

 

I disagree - you've definitely been beaten.

I was literally bout to type that I suppose I've already been beaten  

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, kingcarr21 said:

I was literally bout to type that I suppose I've already been beaten  

Swan Lesta beat you to it 

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Wookie said:

Swan Lesta beat you to it 

Your posts are always so hard hitting. 

[justfoxes]

 I feel sorry for the older generation who got whipped like a wild animal,unfortunately Spanish Italian and other European Police have the so called zero tolerance to football fans whether old or young trouble maker or not their idea is to go whipping anyone in sight they are the ones that also acted like animals but the excuse of the fans "making a mess" was just laughable to go in wielding batons at all an sunder assaulting old ladies is beyond belief !!

Let our police show these thugs how to properly police a football crowd on Tuesday !!

 

Edited 16 April 2017 by justfoxes

[HighPeakFox]

23 hours ago, Fez of Mahrez said:

The official club advice was to gather there before the match and the atmosphere was actually fine until it kicked off.

Absolutely. However, what they didn't tell us all was to ONLY be there for a day or two, to not explore a great city and to not ONLY drink and get sunburnt.

 

By the way, could someone tell me what a 'piss ant' is? To paraphrase Good Morning Vietnam 'I have no idea what it means, but it sounds VERY negative to me!'

[Stadt]

11 minutes ago, bovril said:

Your posts are always so hard hitting. 

I don't think Alf will ever pass on the pun baton though