Trouble in Madrid

[FoxonMaui]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

I had the best 2 days in Madrid. I wore normal warm weather clothes and spent next to no time in the Plaza Mayor, or drinking much. I kept well away from the dreaded Police. I think there is a reasonable correlation there.

 

I'm judging nobody, because I witnessed no incidents. However, this sort of thing is really, really easy to avoid. It is hardly a secret that their police barely need an excuse to become violent, so just be elsewhere. I don't really understand the absolute need to congregate en masse, other than in the ground.

 

[FoxonMaui]

On the paragraphs issue, went to school at Longslade in Birstall mate, what do you expect !!!! ?

[Harry - LCFC]

I've seen this particular argument made a few times in this thread and it's really pissed me off. It goes something like this:

 

Innocent people being hit with batons was the responsibility of the fans who started the trouble rather the responsibility of the police who used the batons. If missiles hadn't been thrown/if a chair hadn't been picked up/if songs hadn't been sung then innocent people wouldn't have been 'caught in the crossfire'.

 

This argument is wrong for the following reason: It assumes that the indiscriminate use of the baton was a necessary consequence of the initial provocation. It was in fact nothing of the sort.

 

There was no need whatsoever to assault bystanders as it did nothing to restore law and order. That callous decision was made by the officers and they alone should be held responsible for their actions.

 

What several people are doing in this thread is to try to throw the blame onto the troublemakers and, in so doing, take blame away from the officers who actually used violence against innocent people.

[Ian S]

12 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

They battered innocents. They're indefensible, worthless creatures. Fvck them and anyone who defends them.

You make yourself sound worse with every post.

[waylander]

8 hours ago, Thracian said:

At least I do paragraphs!  

Liked it without paragraphs . ?

[Thracian]

Just now, waylander said:

Liked it without paragraphs . ?

[Lako42]

Can't wait for Madrid in the next round

[waylander]

16 minutes ago, FoxonMaui said:

On the paragraphs issue, went to school at Longslade in Birstall mate, what do you expect !!!! ?

Not as much as we got then . You must have been the smartest kid in school .?

[waylander]

1 minute ago, Thracian said:

I do love you posts though Thrace.

[Thracian]

34 minutes ago, bluesbrothers said:

As usual, a small percentage of pillocks who were clearly there for trouble and probably couldn't even name the first team made us look fools abroad. The vast majority of Leicester fans were great, had a brilliant time and got along with the Atletico fans, but that isn't going to get the headlines.

Stop playing the victim. You went to the capital of a foreign country and tried to lord it, and you got beaten silly, and what's worse, you ended up getting a great number of honest fans caught in the crossfire. You'd be fuming if foreign fans came to Leicester and caused the sort of trouble I saw in the Plaza Mayor or in Sevilla a few weeks ago - it's downright hypocritical. You might have thought it was 'good fun' or 'banter', but all I saw was ignorant people doing what English tourists always do - getting sloshed, being casually racist in earshot of locals that understand more than they think and lobbing stuff around.

Some of the behaviour was frankly embarrassing. You're abroad - have a little respect for the country you're in, and at least attempt to learn a bit of the language. You'd expect the same of anybody coming here.

And no, there's no 'solidarity' amongst fans to be had here. These idiots need naming, shaming and keeping away from our club. Let them fight in a field in the middle of nowhere like those Russian Ultras do for all I care, just don't drag the rest of us into your stupid game. There were women and children cowering, crying and in some cases bloodied and bruised because you just had to make Leicester look 'Ard on the continent.

Overall though, incredible trip with lovely people on both sides. Bring on the return leg.

 

I was there in the melee, and the real reason the fans got rushed was that one absolute tw@ broke a chair in the Melee after Vardy's goal and refused to hand it over. His d1ckhead mates eventually handed it over but then tried to hide him, and they rightly went in to get him. That innocent fans, myself, my Dad and my Brother included, were caught up in it sucked big time, but the fault lay with those idiots trying to stop him getting kicked out. There was one arrest in the end - it was him. Luckily with a few words of Spanish we had a steward whom we had befriended (a Real Betis fan, so it turns out!) help us keep out of the worst of the melee, but my brother was an inch from getting a baton square in the shins. At the end, those melts who had caused all this trouble had the nerve to try and verbally abuse those same stewards that mediated and stopped a full brawl kicking off - and I had to be the guy to talk them down in broken Spanish and 9-pints English. It was stressful, ruined the last ten minutes of the game and was almost entirely the fault of a small number of our fans making it look like the evolutionary clock ticks backwards in Leicestershire.

 

I'm not gonna sit here and continue to hear the bullsh1t that the police rushing us in Sevilla in the ground was anything other than the fault of a small portion of our fans. No, the batons didn't "come out the moment Vardy scored" - they came out when Johnny English decided to get on his mate's shoulders with the broken seat as a trophy.

Try "Lo Siento". A little humility works wonders, lads.

Same drill in the Plaza Mayor - the "flashpoint" was that bellend letting off a flare and the "ard bois" throwing bottles at the Police, at which point they'd had enough and got the order to clear the square. Ultimately, yes, it was heavy handed, but what else were they going to do - go after the lobster-skinned cowards trying to blend into the "good" fans to avoid being caught like chair-boy in Sevilla?

 

That's how the Spanish po-po operate, and they did their job both times. Blame the scum who cause these scenes in the first place for any collateral damage to us honest fans. I'd just advise any Leicester fan going to anything like this in future, if by some miracle we get this again, to stay the hell away from these "fan zones" and have some chilled drinks on the nearby back streets.

RANT OVER

 

100 Montaditos mate. Spoons of Spain. Bargain, chilled atmosphere, bit of a sing song, no trouble. I'd take that every day.

Having been in Seville myself I'm understanding. agreeing and sympathising with a great deal of what you say but still see absolutely no reason for the indiscriminate whacking of innocent/uninvolved people with batons (or anything else) just because they happened to be there and as caught in the melee as the lowlife's who were trying to hide in it.

 

And especially women and children, because i can't imagine any law enforcer would make the mistake of thinking they were somehow going to breach the peace so dramatically as to create a riot or serious disturbance.

 

But it's not just women and children. I wouldn't want to be having a quiet drink and suddenly find myself in the midst of a baton charge.

 

Imagine instead it was a terrorist incident and some wacko started shooting people dead. If  he tried to shelter among the crowd would that give the law enforcers the right to shoot anyone between them and the gunman or to shoot randomly in all sorts of directions? I don't think so.

 

Handling large crowds should be a disciplined exercise whereby the authorities do all they can to calm trouble at source and use force only as a last resort and then only the minimum force needed - and with due consideration for the uninvolved - to restore order.

 

Anything beyond that is provocative, an exercise in bullying rather than containment, highly dangerous for all sorts of reasons and any injuring of people not involved would amount, in my view,   to a serious, reactionary assault and anything but the disciplined response required.

 

I well understand the law enforcers have a difficult, often unenviable job. But the very nature of their work and their training should reflect and emphasise their responsibility to the innocent as well as the troublemakers. It should not be a licence to take advantage and whack people for no justifiable reason,

 

 

 

 

 

   .     

[Thracian]

39 minutes ago, waylander said:

I do love you posts though Thrace.

Thanks, I appreciate that, although I don't kid myself it's a universal feeling! 

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, HighPeakFox said:

I had the best 2 days in Madrid. I wore normal warm weather clothes and spent next to no time in the Plaza Mayor, or drinking much. I kept well away from the dreaded Police. I think there is a reasonable correlation there.

 

I'm judging nobody, because I witnessed no incidents. However, this sort of thing is really, really easy to avoid. It is hardly a secret that their police barely need an excuse to become violent, so just be elsewhere. I don't really understand the absolute need to congregate en masse, other than in the ground.

I was rather hoping for some of the atmosphere we had in Bruges and Sevilla on match day afternoon. sadly the plaza mayor area was too large. and the walk to the ground could have been great if it had been able to occur. 

 

Thanks to foxonmaui for his detailed description on Tuesday evening events. Having seen how things deteriorated so quickly on wed afternoon, his recollection of the Tuesday puts all into perspective. Too much stuff about Tuesday evening having been completely unprovoked. I think it's safe to say that a small group (maybe 30) of our support were intent on confrontation with the police as they knew they would get a response and a buzz of sorts no doubt. their buzz = innocent bystanders bruises. 

[Jacafox]

A friend of mine was at the Atletico v Bayer Leverkusen match in the previous round. About 45 minutes before before kickoff very close to the stadium, a couple of Atletico fans let flares off. The police reacted in the usual way, storming in with batons to get at the offenders, whacking any Atletico fan who were in the way. Doesn't matter who you are in these situations. The police react aggressively to any provocation. I was in Madrid, sat in the Madrid end, home supporters very welcoming, not sure if we would be as friendly mind. 

[Aeropars]

2 hours ago, Harry - LCFC said:

I've seen this particular argument made a few times in this thread and it's really pissed me off. It goes something like this:

 

Innocent people being hit with batons was the responsibility of the fans who started the trouble rather the responsibility of the police who used the batons. If missiles hadn't been thrown/if a chair hadn't been picked up/if songs hadn't been sung then innocent people wouldn't have been 'caught in the crossfire'.

 

This argument is wrong for the following reason: It assumes that the indiscriminate use of the baton was a necessary consequence of the initial provocation. It was in fact nothing of the sort.

 

There was no need whatsoever to assault bystanders as it did nothing to restore law and order. That callous decision was made by the officers and they alone should be held responsible for their actions.

 

What several people are doing in this thread is to try to throw the blame onto the troublemakers and, in so doing, take blame away from the officers who actually used violence against innocent people.

This 100%. 

 

You CANNOT go around hitting innocent people when you are in a position of power. Clearing the square did not need violence to get 99% of the people out of the square. 

 

The people who who did cause trouble deserved it. Those who were in the wrong place at the wrong time did not. 

[Aeropars]

And another thing. Batons should not be used to hit people around the head. That is life threatening behaviour. 

 

A wrap rap on the arms or legs to disable someone doing wrong I can agree with. 

[Monsell1976]

3 minutes ago, Aeropars said:

This 100%. 

 

You CANNOT go around hitting innocent people when you are in a position of power. Clearing the square did not need violence to get 99% of the people out of the square. 

 

The people who who did cause trouble deserved it. Those who were in the wrong place at the wrong time did not. 

Power corrupts so many, and the problems come when they  considered themselves above the law, like Spanish police, and our political class

[leicsmac]

Perhaps if a few folks on all sides - and I mean all sides - stopped treating football as an extension of war and wanting to prove they're 'better than the other guy', perhaps this wouldn't happen.

 

There isn't any moral highground here that I can see - apart from some posters like bluesbrothers above who were pretty balanced and reasoned.

[Stadt]

My mum was telling me that somebody she knows has had his eye socket shattered by the police and he's lost sight in that eye. Apparently they were just walking out of their hotel in the plaza.

Edited 15 April 2017 by Wookie

[Manwell Pablo]

4 hours ago, Harry - LCFC said:

I've seen this particular argument made a few times in this thread and it's really pissed me off. It goes something like this:

 

Innocent people being hit with batons was the responsibility of the fans who started the trouble rather the responsibility of the police who used the batons. If missiles hadn't been thrown/if a chair hadn't been picked up/if songs hadn't been sung then innocent people wouldn't have been 'caught in the crossfire'.

 

This argument is wrong for the following reason: It assumes that the indiscriminate use of the baton was a necessary consequence of the initial provocation. It was in fact nothing of the sort.

 

There was no need whatsoever to assault bystanders as it did nothing to restore law and order. That callous decision was made by the officers and they alone should be held responsible for their actions.

 

What several people are doing in this thread is to try to throw the blame onto the troublemakers and, in so doing, take blame away from the officers who actually used violence against innocent people.

 

For the record althose with the "they just make the situation worse" and "it doesn't solve anything" arguement. The whole situation was pretty much resolved and trouble over in 2 minutes from what I saw so I'm afraid it does work and very few people wanted to kick offf again once they'd waded in once.

 

I dont get the blame thing, the Spanish police have no case to answer, that's how they are trained and ordered to deal with any disturbance of this nature. I think it's wrong, you think it's wrong, much as I think locking up homo sexuals for public displays of affection is wrong in the UAE, capital punishment in the states is wrong, when i was in NZ you could still legally drive on about four pints, I thought that was wrong. I am amazed the amount of people who do not grasp the simple concept of their country, their rules. Got to be careful when you go abroad I'm afraid relatively speaking we live in what is a little bit of a nanny state.

[Harry - LCFC]

11 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

For the record althose with the "they just make the situation worse" and "it doesn't solve anything" arguement. The whole situation was pretty much resolved and trouble over in 2 minutes from what I saw so I'm afraid it does work and very few people wanted to kick offf again once they'd waded in once.

 

I dont get the blame thing, the Spanish police have no case to answer, that's how they are trained and ordered to deal with any disturbance of this nature. I think it's wrong, you think it's wrong, much as I think locking up homo sexuals for public displays of affection is wrong in the UAE, capital punishment in the states is wrong, when i was in NZ you could still legally drive on about four pints, I thought that was wrong. I am amazed the amount of people who do not grasp the simple concept of their country, their rules. Got to be careful when you go abroad I'm afraid relatively speaking we live in what is a little bit of a nanny state.

They absolutely made the situation worse. They took one poor situation of people throwing stuff and replaced with an appalling one where people were left bruised, bleeding and traumatised.

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, Harry - LCFC said:

They absolutely made the situation worse. They took one poor situation of people throwing stuff and replaced with an appalling one where people were left bruised, bleeding and traumatised.

 

State of our fans not a concern of there's in the slightest. Sole intention Of doing what they did was to break the crowd up and deter any further behaviour of a similar nature, job done in 2 minutes.

Edited 15 April 2017 by Manwell Pablo

[Harry - LCFC]

Just now, Manwell Pablo said:

State of our fans not a concern of there's in the slightest. Sole intention. Of doing what they did was to break the crowd up and deter any further behaviour of a similar nature, job done in 2 minutes.

Sounds pretty immoral to me.

[Manwell Pablo]

10 minutes ago, Harry - LCFC said:

Sounds pretty immoral to me.

 

And me. Agreed. I have no problem with it being called immoral, I take issue with it being called ineffective 

 

It's not immoral to the Spanish and we were in Spain.

Edited 15 April 2017 by Manwell Pablo

[Stadt]

If we get through we're definitely drawing Real or Barça (unlikely).

[Fez of Mahrez]

The official club advice was to gather there before the match and the atmosphere was actually fine until it kicked off.