leicsmac Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 3 minutes ago, Thracian said: How keen you seem to misunderstand me. I'm not a Muslim. I have no belief in or desire to kill, maim or torture people - men, women or children - and am not one to turn to The Bible or any other man-written or transcribed scripture into an excuse for doing it either. I don't believe in man-made religion or its public promotion. Religion has been a vehicle for acquiring power and control throughout history and has been constantly manipulated for that end and to the cost of countless lives. The body count is appalling and shames the very concept of goodness. To remind you, I was wholly against the Iraq war before it started. I was wholly against Twin Towers retaliation save for commemorating the killing of those innocents with good works way of communal orchards, theatres, youth clubs and so on. I also abhor our seemingly hypocritical actions in the Middle East these last years and the more so for their having no logical end nor even the chance they might provide any lasting solution to pacifying people who seem to feed off hatred - both for non-conformers within Islam and others who don't accept their dictates. And so it has been for centuries and not just relating to the Muslim faiths either. My solutions concerning crime would be flexible but would not involve either torture, execution nor, I'd hope, protracted incarceration . Justice would also be swifter than today because laws would be simpler and the system much more malleable and related to circumstances, consequences and the desired outcome relating to this country and the people affected. . 2 I certainly can't disagree with your views here on organised religion (though I'm pretty sure the majority of religious adhedrents, Muslim or otherwise, don't want to kill either) nor the Iraq war. Judging by your previous posts I thought you were in favour of capital punishment for certain crimes, but as you've clarified things here that's fair enough and thank you for the clarification.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: So locking them up in jail (and possibly going in for some Clockwork Orange-style rehab to see if they can be helped and to see what information we can get) for the rest of their lives would be equally viable, except that it might (there's a debate on that score) cost more money. You're welcome to your view of giving them the chop (or the rope) on account of it being cheaper, but I'm not buying it, sorry. I'd doubt you have any effective solutions but I'd worry about any solutions you might have given your way of taking an argument which had nothing to do with executions or torture and somehow using it as a smokescreen for what seems to be an attitude without answers, although I'd be well pleased to hear to the contrary.
leicsmac Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 1 minute ago, Thracian said: I'd doubt you have any effective solutions but I'd worry about any solutions you might have given your way of taking an argument which had nothing to do with executions or torture and somehow using it as a smokescreen for what seems to be an attitude without answers, although I'd be well pleased to hear to the contrary. You're right, I don't have any effective solutions because the problem is far more complex than most people think. As such, I'd be (and am) incredibly leery of people who posit simple solutions to a problem like this.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: I certainly can't disagree with your views here on organised religion (though I'm pretty sure the majority of religious adhedrents, Muslim or otherwise, don't want to kill either) nor the Iraq war. Judging by your previous posts I thought you were in favour of capital punishment for certain crimes, but as you've clarified things here that's fair enough and thank you for the clarification. No, I've never been in favour of capital punishment. The nearest I got was favouring deportation to some outpost and leaving the offender with food, clothing and shelter to whatever fate whatever Good Lord might have in store for him. But, on reflection, I'd have to ensure survival was realistic even if banishment was essentially permanent. It would be a last resort even then.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 42 minutes ago, leicsmac said: You're right, I don't have any effective solutions because the problem is far more complex than most people think. As such, I'd be (and am) incredibly leery of people who posit simple solutions to a problem like this. You're in good company and that seems to be the result of modern education and public brainwashing though that may not be the complete story. Certainly I get the feeling that people no longer have the will to solve difficult problems such as terrorism, crime and punishment or immigration because they are forever looking for perfect solutions where they don't exist. We can only seek the best solution for our survival and wellbeing in what is an increasingly unharmonious world and one which we seem hell-bent on compromising through ill-conceived and seemingly flawed idealism. .
LiberalFox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 4 hours ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: From a young age, racist taunting, assault, vandalism to property, mother spat at, sister assualted (racially motivated). There's other things that I wont go into. Point being that some people (vunerable, mentally ill etc) who are treated that way for who they are and not what they've done, could easily be manipulated into radicalisation. Its not that difficult to see. The narrative of they're evil and we're not is easy to deal with but it will never solve the problem. The Manchester bomber was 17 when he was first reported. If we had a system in place where instead of going on a watchlist, they could be taken in (reluctant to use the word sectioned) and de-radicalised, it may be we could prevent radicalisation instead of just trying to firefight terrorist threat. I worry we're making the same mistakes as France with the same results.
LiberalFox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 3 hours ago, Thracian said: It would have been a lot better if we had never opened the door to religious zealots in the first place. Corbyn calls for May to resign over the cuts in police but we should never have needed so many police if Blair hadn't promoted the idealism he never had a mandate for and which even some Labour stalwarts have since admitted was misguided. I wonder what Corbyn would say about that given his plans to encourage even more immigration and, inevitably, the arrival of more zealots and their offspring to be who are clearly likely to be vulnerable to the radicalisation you mention. I'd rather spend our money on positive projects rather than mending the minds of people who should never be living in a place they are so at odds with, should never be having their minds corrupted either at home, at their place of worship or anywhere else and certainly not at our eventual expense. I keep hearing about Muslims' condemnation of the radicals and some might be sincere. But I am in no way convinced that there aren't many who quietly condone the attacks and, indeed, anything that hurts our soft but essentially caring and embracing society. Because if they really wanted to send a message of condemnation they'd abandon man-organised Islam and practice genuinely righteous Islamic or any other behaviour in private, while actually supporting and appreciating the society they, and sometimes their fathers and grandfathers, have freely chosen to live in. As it is we continue to facilitate trojan horses within our midst and that with all sorts of cover-ups about the disastrous impact of Blair's adventure on our country and its safety. As I've said before, our streets and our systems are now, necessarily. teeming with security measures that were never necessary on anything like such a scale in the past. Yet still we are in denial, still Mrs May talks about "enough" and still Corbyn unashamedly boasts about his pacifism which will get rammed right down his oratorial throat by those who might support his stance and party right now, but only for their own ends and advancement of their own way of life when the chance arises. If our national leaders were footballers they'd score own goals every week. Your attitude is part of the problem.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 Just now, LiberalFox said: Your attitude is part of the problem. There wasn't a problem when I was young.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 6 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: I worry we're making the same mistakes as France with the same results. So what's the mistakes and what's the solutions because I seem to have missed them?
Nick Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 3 hours ago, Thracian said: It would have been a lot better if we had never opened the door to religious zealots in the first place. Corbyn calls for May to resign over the cuts in police but we should never have needed so many police if Blair hadn't promoted the idealism he never had a mandate for and which even some Labour stalwarts have since admitted was misguided. I wonder what Corbyn would say about that given his plans to encourage even more immigration and, inevitably, the arrival of more zealots and their offspring to be who are clearly likely to be vulnerable to the radicalisation you mention. I'd rather spend our money on positive projects rather than mending the minds of people who should never be living in a place they are so at odds with, should never be having their minds corrupted either at home, at their place of worship or anywhere else and certainly not at our eventual expense. I keep hearing about Muslims' condemnation of the radicals and some might be sincere. But I am in no way convinced that there aren't many who quietly condone the attacks and, indeed, anything that hurts our soft but essentially caring and embracing society. Because if they really wanted to send a message of condemnation they'd abandon man-organised Islam and practice genuinely righteous Islamic or any other behaviour in private, while actually supporting and appreciating the society they, and sometimes their fathers and grandfathers, have freely chosen to live in. As it is we continue to facilitate trojan horses within our midst and that with all sorts of cover-ups about the disastrous impact of Blair's adventure on our country and its safety. As I've said before, our streets and our systems are now, necessarily. teeming with security measures that were never necessary on anything like such a scale in the past. Yet still we are in denial, still Mrs May talks about "enough" and still Corbyn unashamedly boasts about his pacifism which will get rammed right down his oratorial throat by those who might support his stance and party right now, but only for their own ends and advancement of their own way of life when the chance arises. If our national leaders were footballers they'd score own goals every week. You want hate preachers gone eh? The fvcking irony is blinding.
LiberalFox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 10 minutes ago, Thracian said: So what's the mistakes and what's the solutions because I seem to have missed them? 38 minutes ago, Thracian said: There wasn't a problem when I was young. France appears to be very hostile in some parts to its large Muslim communities and I think this has led to a greater number of terror attacks in recent years. But I think what can happen that is really dangerous is you get a positive feedback loop where attacks lead to increases in racism and calls for stricter policing and increases in racism and stricter policing leads to more "radicalisation" and less trust from Muslim communities which leads to more attacks. The end result is the very real prospect of an openly Fascist French President at some point in the near future. It's not really good enough to simply say there wasn't a problem when you were young and that it was a mistake to let Muslim people into the country. Even if you don't partake in racist incidents yourself, that can easily be taken to indicate you'd support measures to remove Muslims. Perhaps from your point of view you simply think nothing can be done now. Even if that was true, it can certainly get a lot worse if we aren't careful. I'm a Liberal so I believe in less direct government involvement and solutions that try and involve people at the lowest government level possible. I think the country suffers from having a two party democracy where both parties favour centralisation of power for different reasons. I also consider education to be at the heart of better societies (by education I don't mean just degrees and A-levels but the ability to think critically).
GaelicFox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 19 hours ago, AKCJ said: What? You think mosques are full of people openly talking about mass murder and terrorism? or You think that people would turn a blind eye to it? You're a closet racist. Mosques aren't full of people making bombs and planning terror attacks. Sorry to burst the bubble. Every one of them attend mosque , virtually all of them challenged moderate thinking in the mosque and NONE of them were reported by the Immam or the mosque management to the anti-terror police so tell me now what's being going on in these Sunni "Islamic centres" and mosques Saudi Arabian funded wahibist Sunni murders being radicalised in mosques across the UK didsbury and Finsbury Park just two of the notorious ones !!!
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 2 hours ago, leicsmac said: You're right, I don't have any effective solutions because the problem is far more complex than most people think. As such, I'd be (and am) incredibly leery of people who posit simple solutions to a problem like this. I don't think there are simple or universally fair solutions either, or even the will/mandate to apply them so, like some others of my generation, I actually think we're basically waiting for a meltdown that seems inevitable not many years down the line. It's something the authorities are also concerned about, given how keen they are to keep a lid on the media and anything that might ignite the tinder box that's been created. I live in hope like everyone else and if it were just the UK that had a problem maybe we'd manage and our welcoming way of life might mean something, though I doubt it. But it's way worse than that and the pressures that may well emanate from places like Turkey will only make the tensions in Europe grow and ever more quickly. There are none so blind as those who don't see or even want to see. But anyone believing in the "family-of-man" goodness of humanity should look closely at the bombsites that are Syria and Iraq or even the internal turmoil in Egypt, Libya, Nigeria, Somalia and the incidents that have so devastated our own society in London (several times) and Manchester and then at the escalating concerns in France, Germany, Holland, Greece, Italy, Scandinavia. Ask yourself. Does the all-inclusive, "Free-Family-of-Man" vision hold up to examination. I've already mentioned Blair once today. His big mistake in Iraq resulted in so many deaths, maimings and the misery of destroyed infrastructure it's almost impossible to exaggerate - all of it ruthlessly exploited, in time, by the recruitment and publicity machines of IS So why would anyone ever doubt the mistakes (already apparent) and the potentially greater mistakes of Blair's social idealism that are still to come?, Somehow through the frustration of so much indecision and blinkered disbelief, we need genuinely strong and far-seeing leadership to emerge in and across Western Europe. But right now I only see it in the emerging caliphate of Erdogan's Turkey - and I did mention that happening long ago and well before it actually started to come about. How many political arrests and how much idealogical intolerance does it take to see the proverbial writing on the wall for the ever-weakening EU-dominated West? Or to recognise enemies in our midst, however well hidden, and the folly of importing still more? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/27/turkey-arrests-1000-suspends-9100-police-new-crackdown http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKBN0OC0ET20150527?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
Jattdogg Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 Does anyone have numbers on how successful deradicalization actually is? Might be a tough thing to quantify per say? I'd like to think that when you've gone that far, that the success rate is very low but i could be way off base. The only reason i ask is if the numbers are low or so low that its "ineffective" then it wouldnt appear to me that deradicalization is the way forward. That pretty much leaves deportation (where and if possible), jail, execution or nothing at all as the only options. Id like to hope people MUCH smarter (and highly knowledgeable/educated) than me could find a solution. I am by no means that guy but open to discussions and feedback to how we can handle these issues moving forward. Status quo is not working.
AKCJ Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 27 minutes ago, GaelicFox said: Every one of them attend mosque , virtually all of them challenged moderate thinking in the mosque and NONE of them were reported by the Immam or the mosque management to the anti-terror police so tell me now what's being going on in these Sunni "Islamic centres" and mosques Saudi Arabian funded wahibist Sunni murders being radicalised in mosques across the UK didsbury and Finsbury Park just two of the notorious ones !!! And you're privy to Anti-Terror Police's records? Come off it. Muslims go to mosques to worship their God. You don't honestly believe that people talk about terrorism in mosques and the millions of good, honest muslims just turn a blind eye to it? Surely not? I accept that there are nutters that prowl mosques for vunerable youngsters but I would wager that 99.99% of extremist stuff is reported.
lestajigs Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 19 hours ago, Chico1958 said: I know I've put this on another thread but come on people............ Chill Out Actually i thought blacks have a bigger bone structure?
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 1 hour ago, LiberalFox said: France appears to be very hostile in some parts to its large Muslim communities and I think this has led to a greater number of terror attacks in recent years. But I think what can happen that is really dangerous is you get a positive feedback loop where attacks lead to increases in racism and calls for stricter policing and increases in racism and stricter policing leads to more "radicalisation" and less trust from Muslim communities which leads to more attacks. The end result is the very real prospect of an openly Fascist French President at some point in the near future. It's not really good enough to simply say there wasn't a problem when you were young and that it was a mistake to let Muslim people into the country. Even if you don't partake in racist incidents yourself, that can easily be taken to indicate you'd support measures to remove Muslims. Perhaps from your point of view you simply think nothing can be done now. Even if that was true, it can certainly get a lot worse if we aren't careful. I'm a Liberal so I believe in less direct government involvement and solutions that try and involve people at the lowest government level possible. I think the country suffers from having a two party democracy where both parties favour centralisation of power for different reasons. I also consider education to be at the heart of better societies (by education I don't mean just degrees and A-levels but the ability to think critically). The extent of security cameras on our streets starkly reflects the growth and extent of the problems which have escalated unchecked since I was young. As for "education" it depends what education is being forwarded - in homes, schools and places of worship - as to the attitudes of the students that emerge. And if you accept that, I think "education" will be another minus rather than a plus. Sad to say.
LiberalFox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 29 minutes ago, Thracian said: The extent of security cameras on our streets starkly reflect the growth and extent of the problems which have escalated unchecked since I was young. As for "education" it depends what education is being forwarded - in homes, schools and places of worship - as to the attitudes of the students that emerge. And if you accept that, I think "education" will be another minus rather than a plus. Sad to say. Don't you think security cameras are a result of technology and government policy more than a directly proportional indicator of threat level? Another area that has seen extensive use of cameras and other surveillance measures would be traffic policing. Do you think that is also directly proportional to an increase in dangerous driving or is it maybe a result of more sophisticated technology and a government keen to use them? I'm not sure what you are trying to say about education. I'm saying we need people to be expected to think for themselves and that we need to make sure they are taught how to do this. It sounds like you are agreeing with me.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 1 hour ago, LiberalFox said: France appears to be very hostile in some parts to its large Muslim communities and I think this has led to a greater number of terror attacks in recent years. But I think what can happen that is really dangerous is you get a positive feedback loop where attacks lead to increases in racism and calls for stricter policing and increases in racism and stricter policing leads to more "radicalisation" and less trust from Muslim communities which leads to more attacks. The end result is the very real prospect of an openly Fascist French President at some point in the near future. It's not really good enough to simply say there wasn't a problem when you were young and that it was a mistake to let Muslim people into the country. Even if you don't partake in racist incidents yourself, that can easily be taken to indicate you'd support measures to remove Muslims. Perhaps from your point of view you simply think nothing can be done now. Even if that was true, it can certainly get a lot worse if we aren't careful. I'm a Liberal so I believe in less direct government involvement and solutions that try and involve people at the lowest government level possible. I think the country suffers from having a two party democracy where both parties favour centralisation of power for different reasons. I also consider education to be at the heart of better societies (by education I don't mean just degrees and A-levels but the ability to think critically). . https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/17/leaked-report-aggressive-islamist-agenda-birmingham-schools
yorkie1999 Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 I think half the problems have been caused by the reduction of our security forces, including the police, over the last 30 years and islamic terrorism has been allowed to gain momentum in this country simply because of the lack of resistance to it. It's like a cancer that's not been nipped in the bud. The bobby on the beat used to be the first person to notice something strange or odd in a community. Take away the eyes on the street and the psychos can get away with anything. Problem is, the cancer appears to be too far gone.
Countryfox Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: I think half the problems have been caused by the reduction of our security forces, including the police, over the last 30 years and islamic terrorism has been allowed to gain momentum in this country simply because of the lack of resistance to it. It's like a cancer that's not been nipped in the bud. The bobby on the beat used to be the first person to notice something strange or odd in a community. Take away the eyes on the street and the psychos can get away with anything. Problem is, the cancer appears to be too far gone. I think the police have done a fantastic job and the speed that they responded the other day saved countless lives ... I couldn't believe how quickly they did it. The security forces have done a great job too in stopping so many of these things before they even got started and lives were lost. Sorry mate but the bobby on the beat would have had no impact at all on this problem. The culprits are our political leaders who go diving into other countries and don't realise that somewhere down the line the rest of us pay for it in blood. Only as an example .... I don't know how Tony Blair sleeps at night.
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 15 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: Don't you think security cameras are a result of technology and government policy more than a directly proportional indicator of threat level? Another area that has seen extensive use of cameras and other surveillance measures would be traffic policing. Do you think that is also directly proportional to an increase in dangerous driving or is it maybe a result of more sophisticated technology and a government keen to use them? I'm not sure what you are trying to say about education. I'm saying we need people to be expected to think for themselves and that we need to make sure they are taught how to do this. It sounds like you are agreeing with me. On the question of security cameras their evidence is quickly utilised after virtually every terrorist event including the latest one at the Borough Market and the one before that at the Houses of Parliament. They are very much there as a deterent and to gather information about major incidents. Regarding education I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately as my link shows concerning Birmingham schools there are those who think differently and wish to install their own agenda...and I very much doubt the situation was or is unique. The attack on our own systems and way of life is organised and ongoing. Even moderate Muslims are avoiding going to mosques out of concerns about potential radicalisation of their youngsters. This is a bit out of date but paints the picture fairly clearly and the reasons moderate Muslims have developed concerns about the threat to their youngsters. https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2842/radicalization-british-muslims
Thracian Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 16 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: I think half the problems have been caused by the reduction of our security forces, including the police, over the last 30 years and islamic terrorism has been allowed to gain momentum in this country simply because of the lack of resistance to it. It's like a cancer that's not been nipped in the bud. The bobby on the beat used to be the first person to notice something strange or odd in a community. Take away the eyes on the street and the psychos can get away with anything. Problem is, the cancer appears to be too far gone. It's been stated from the police side that the reduction of community police has had no impact on the security situation. And the once reduced level of armed officers has been rectified a year or so ago. There's every indication that if the police need to react to what they see as a changed threat they will get what they require. Corbyn is just being opportunistic and in another less opportune moment would have been moaning for fewer armed officers. He's already opposed a shoot to kill policy.
yorkie1999 Posted 5 June 2017 Posted 5 June 2017 1 minute ago, Countryfox said: I think the police have done a fantastic job and the speed that they responded the other day saved countless lives ... I couldn't believe how quickly they did it. The security forces have done a great job too in stopping so many of these things before they even got started and lives were lost. Sorry mate but the bobby on the beat would have had no impact at all on this problem. The culprits are our political leaders who go diving into other countries and don't realise that somewhere down the line the rest of us pay for it in blood. Only as an example .... I don't know how Tony Blair sleeps at night. What i'm saying is that this problem would not have arisen if it had been nipped in the bud in its early stages, and you're right, it's our governments who are to blame, they are the ones that have reduced our security over the years We are expected to be a self policed society, which can't happen because it will always be the bullies and the criminals and the low life and the terrorists that will rise to the top left unchecked.
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