Incident at London Bridge

[foxfanazer]

Just now, Lionator said:

Some of the stories you hear from prisons are absolutely batsh*t insane, it beggars belief that we allow these things to go on in these settings.

I've passed all the stages to become a prison officer. Going to be working at a prison where the Muslim population is at a staggering 48% (37% higher than the next highest in the uk). It's going to be a real eye opener

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

My opinion on how to deal with this problem has dramatically changed in the

last few weeks, I feel like we have walked on eggshells around this problem

for too long. We need a zero tolerance approach to extremists. If there is 2000

people of interest then those with dual passports should be deported, and those 

who are British nationals should be tagged.

Although I was an ardent remainer one good thing about Brexit is that it will

be easier to deport foriegn extremists.

Not saying this is wrong, and I do agree that if you're a extremist not of British nationality then you should be deported, however you're just moving the issue from one place to another. It really isn't the long term answer if we're going to eradicate it once and for all. The situation is much more complex than that.

[Lionator]

1 minute ago, foxfanazer said:

I've passed all the stages to become a prison officer. Going to be working at a prison where the Muslim population is at a staggering 48% (37% higher than the next highest in the uk). It's going to be a real eye opener

Fair play to you, not a job I'd like to be doing. Good luck and try to keep an open mind!

[LiberalFox]

6 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Maybe I'm just cynical but I think you have to have something fundamentally wrong with you in the first place to allow yourself to be radicalised

 

I certainly think there are plenty of people who could sort themselves out so they aren't on a watch list and that frees up resources to target the "lost causes" if you see it that way.

 

It's also important to give at least a little publicity to people who have turned themselves around because it shows progress.

[Thracian]

8 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Maybe I'm just cynical but I think you have to have something fundamentally wrong with you in the first place to allow yourself to be radicalised

Bullied, scared, pliable, short of money, sex, drugs, friends, excitement or sense. Not necessarily in that order.   .

[yorkie1999]

some of these radicals ought to have a discussion with a few born again christians. That would soon sought them out

[Rincewind]

I find myself agreeing with Thracian. Those things apply to non Muslims and involvement in crime homelessness etc So many factors are involved I am no expert but I would say the brain and mind is fragile at a young age and what happens can affect you the rest of your lives. Luckily freewill is stronger within most of us and we are able to make choices at different times in our lives.

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, Rincewind said:

I find myself agreeing with Thracian. Those things apply to non Muslims and involvement in crime homelessness etc So many factors are involved I am no expert but I would say the brain and mind is fragile at a young age and what happens can affect you the rest of your lives. Luckily freewill is stronger within most of us and we are able to make choices at different times in our lives.

Armageddon is here.

[m4DD0gg]

Unreal that one of these pieces of shit was on a TV documentary 'Jihadists next door' and was known to the security services.

 

This watch list needs some proper action not bullshit government crap, round these ****ers up and gas them.

 

I assume the gassing option wont be allowed so for the love of god tag these freaks tag and or deport them.

[Rincewind]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Armageddon is here.

It was one of his shorter essays though. Just one sentence.

[Fox92]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4575570/Millwall-fan-tells-fought-London-Bridge-terrorists.html

 

 

Quote

'F*** you, I'm Millwall': Brave football fan, 47, reveals how he was stabbed eight times as he fought the London Bridge terrorists with his bare hands (and how his mates have sent him a Learn To Run handbook)
 

 

Funny to imagine he shouted that but what a hero though.

 

 

[Benguin]

I've been hearing a lot of comments and articles about Islamaphobia and how Muslims shouldn't need to condemn or apologise for terrorism but I completely disagree. It makes no logical sense when you think about their beliefs.

 

If someone believes in Allah, it is absolutely their job to spread the true meaning of this to the best of their ability. Belief in god confers meaning to life and death; Islam is clear upon that meaning being spread. If they do not try to teach others about their beliefs of our meaning then they are one of two things: Either they do not truly believe in their religion, or they do not want others to know the 'truth'. Both of these circumstances are unacceptable and condemned by their religion.

 

It seems to me that Islamic extremism is a serious threat to Islam, if we are to accept that most Muslims are not terrorists. I believe there are an increasing number of extremists and I also believe there are a large number of conservative Muslims who perhaps wouldn't commit atrocious acts in the name of their religion but certainly wouldn't condemn it. However I am absolutely convinced that most Muslims are peaceful people and are not a threat to our way of life.

 

Therefore if extremism is in fact a threat to Islam and Muslims are indeed tasked with spreading the word of their religion, then it follows logically to say that Muslims should absolutely be standing up against terrorism, apologising for it and convincing everyone they can that this is not the word of their god.

 

 

 

 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I've been hearing a lot of comments and articles about Islamaphobia and how Muslims shouldn't need to condemn or apologise for terrorism but I completely disagree. It makes no logical sense when you think about their beliefs.

 

If someone believes in Allah, it is absolutely their job to spread the true meaning of this to the best of their ability. Belief in god confers meaning to life and death; Islam is clear upon that meaning being spread. If they do not try to teach others about their beliefs of our meaning then they are one of two things: Either they do not truly believe in their religion, or they do not want others to know the 'truth'. Both of these circumstances are unacceptable and condemned by their religion.

 

It seems to me that Islamic extremism is a serious threat to Islam, if we are to accept that most Muslims are not terrorists. I believe there are an increasing number of extremists and I also believe there are a large number of conservative Muslims who perhaps wouldn't commit atrocious acts in the name of their religion but certainly wouldn't condemn it. However I am absolutely convinced that most Muslims are peaceful people and are not a threat to our way of life.

 

Therefore if extremism is in fact a threat to Islam and Muslims are indeed tasked with spreading the word of their religion, then it follows logically to say that Muslims should absolutely be standing up against terrorism, apologising for it and convincing everyone they can that this is not the word of their god.

 

 

 

 

 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

In what way am I trolling? It's a serious contention.

[Nick]

27 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I've been hearing a lot of comments and articles about Islamaphobia and how Muslims shouldn't need to condemn or apologise for terrorism but I completely disagree. It makes no logical sense when you think about their beliefs.

 

If someone believes in Allah, it is absolutely their job to spread the true meaning of this to the best of their ability. Belief in god confers meaning to life and death; Islam is clear upon that meaning being spread. If they do not try to teach others about their beliefs of our meaning then they are one of two things: Either they do not truly believe in their religion, or they do not want others to know the 'truth'. Both of these circumstances are unacceptable and condemned by their religion.

 

It seems to me that Islamic extremism is a serious threat to Islam, if we are to accept that most Muslims are not terrorists. I believe there are an increasing number of extremists and I also believe there are a large number of conservative Muslims who perhaps wouldn't commit atrocious acts in the name of their religion but certainly wouldn't condemn it. However I am absolutely convinced that most Muslims are peaceful people and are not a threat to our way of life.

 

Therefore if extremism is in fact a threat to Islam and Muslims are indeed tasked with spreading the word of their religion, then it follows logically to say that Muslims should absolutely be standing up against terrorism, apologising for it and convincing everyone they can that this is not the word of their god.

 

 

 

 

I think the main issue with this stance is the weighting of responsibility - for instance far right christian communes and cults which petition the funerals of gay soldiers and persecute homosexuals also belong to an extreme ideology which the christian chuch don't really condem in a massively public way nor is responsibility placed upon them to do so or somehow police their own congregations for the break away radicals.... 

 

It's all our responsibility to protect the vulnerable from grooming and radicalisation not just associated groups. Whilst I see where the sentiment comes from its a bit like making it the responsibility of every Leicester supporter to eradicate demographics of our support who lie, steal and make homophobic, racist and sexist comments. Its a nice sentiment but aside from setting up a reporting hotline which evidently is already being used by Muslims in the community to no avail - what more are we hoping citizens do? 

[Benguin]

13 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I think the main issue with this stance is the weighting of responsibility - for instance far right christian communes and cults which petition the funerals of gay soldiers and persecute homosexuals also belong to an extreme ideology which the christian chuch don't really condem in a massively public way nor is responsibility placed upon them to do so or somehow police their own congregations for the break away radicals.... 

 

It's all our responsibility to protect the vulnerable from grooming and radicalisation not just associated groups. Whilst I see where the sentiment comes from its a bit like making it the responsibility of every Leicester supporter to eradicate demographics of our support who lie, steal and make homophobic, racist and sexist comments. Its a nice sentiment but aside from setting up a reporting hotline which evidently is already being used by Muslims in the community to no avail - what more are we hoping citizens do? 

The main moot point is that the narrative that they shouldn't need to stand up to it is wrong. We're always hearing "we wont let them divide us" and terrorism isn't representative of Islam but in reality, we are being divided and Islam is perceived by a lot of people by the way extremists present it. If we are to become more united and Islam, which is currently followed by over 3.5 million people in the UK, is to be better perceived then the onus to achieve this needs to be cast on peaceful Muslims as well.

 

I take your point about Christianity and agree, Christianity has long been collapsing in the UK and has long had a negative perception.

 

I think the Islam community need to do more to prevent radicalisation, particularly in Mosques.

[Rincewind]

I was with a Muslim last night who plays in our group. Nice bloke. The subject of the attack came up of the attacks and he agreed with someone else that the radicals came from the Saudia Arabia side of Islam which he is not part of.

He was saying more needs to be done to stop the infiltrating  of Mosques which again are not the sect he attends. TBH I am not keen on bringing the subject uo with him because of upsetting or offending him. I am pretty sure he does not regard the killers as fellow Muslims and would happily report anyone he thought was radicalised.

He won last night and gave the winnings to the charity we play for.

I am sure that anyone who met him would find him a likeable decent bloke even the 'Send all Muslims back' brigade

Apart from reporting odd behavior what can family and communities do. A lot of Mosques already turn away anyone that have extreme views. They will be the ones on the watch list. But just having views is not a crime in itself. Whether there is a way of getting round this I do not know. It will be like someone saying I understand why they feel that way and before they know it the cops are breaking down their door.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Rincewind said:

I was with a Muslim last night who plays in our group. Nice bloke. The subject of the attack came up of the attacks and he agreed with someone else that the radicals came from the Saudia Arabia side of Islam which he is not part of.

He was saying more needs to be done to stop the infiltrating  of Mosques which again are not the sect he attends. TBH I am not keen on bringing the subject uo with him because of upsetting or offending him. I am pretty sure he does not regard the killers as fellow Muslims and would happily report anyone he thought was radicalised.

He won last night and gave the winnings to the charity we play for.

I am sure that anyone who met him would find him a likeable decent bloke even the 'Send all Muslims back' brigade

Apart from reporting odd behavior what can family and communities do. A lot of Mosques already turn away anyone that have extreme views. They will be the ones on the watch list. But just having views is not a crime in itself. Whether there is a way of getting round this I do not know. It will be like someone saying I understand why they feel that way and before they know it the cops are breaking down their door.

Exactly. Plus, it's not like you don't see large groups of Muslims publicly condemning attacks after they happen. They literally do so whenever such an atrocity occurs.

 

I think it was an ex-MI5 guy the other day who was saying that the vast, vast majority of tip-offs about extremists come from mosque-goers. It's not like people giving such tips are going to go public about their whistleblowing are they?

[Guest MattP]

A good thing to come from this is people are now finally talking about the Saudi Arabian influence in spreading a poisonious interpretation of Islam across the planet whenever they get the chance, after years of anyone bringing it up on shows like Question Time or The Big Questions being smeared as racist or Islamophobes it's really great to see it becoming mainstream.

 

I think it's probably too late for Europe to put a stop to it as it's now here but hopefully the rest of the World is taking note.

[lgfualol]

Third attacker named. Italian police tipped him off to us when he tried flying to Syria. This is not looking that good - I get it is tough to stop people like this from getting a knife and a random car, but it's a little worrying. 

 

But like Matt says, the Saudi thing is good. I have seen more news about Saudi Arabia's influence this week than I have in ages. I wonder if something like this will happen again https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade

[foxes21]

 

49 minutes ago, MattP said:

A good thing to come from this is people are now finally talking about the Saudi Arabian influence in spreading a poisonious interpretation of Islam across the planet whenever they get the chance, after years of anyone bringing it up on shows like Question Time or The Big Questions being smeared as racist or Islamophobes it's really great to see it becoming mainstream.

 

I think it's probably too late for Europe to put a stop to it as it's now here but hopefully the rest of the World is taking note.

Problem is the Saudi connection to the UK & US Government.

 

Theresa May recently sold weapons worth millions to them & they were also one of Hilary Clinton's top donors. Furthermore, the US are on the verge of a 100bn deal to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia.

 

Our own government are influenced by them.

[Countryfox]

11 minutes ago, foxes21 said:

 

Problem is the Saudi connection to the UK & US Government.

 

Theresa May recently sold weapons worth millions to them & they were also one of Hilary Clinton's top donors. Furthermore, the US are on the verge of a 100bn deal to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia.

 

Our own government are influenced by them.

 

Money ...    the worlds most powerful religion.    

[yorkie1999]

Why can't the authorities just round up all the ones they've been tipped off about and chuck them in prison to await questioning. It's not going to be that hard to find out which ones are radicalized.   

[Rincewind]

5 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Why can't the authorities just round up all the ones they've been tipped off about and chuck them in prison to await questioning. It's not going to be that hard to find out which ones are radicalized.   

Seems so obvious when put like that. Such a simple solution.

[yorkie1999]

8 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

Seems so obvious when put like that. Such a simple solution.

It's like everyone looking for reasons as to why it's happening,  trying to apportion blame because that's the culture we live in, think up crazy ideas about this that and the other, but daren't actually do anything about it. To me, and i don't wish to stereotype,  if someone is wearing a dress, with sandals on (in this country!!) has a long beard and wearing a white cap, waving an isis flag about whilst yelling we love allah and death to the Christians, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise there's something not quite right.