Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 1 hour ago, Manwell Pablo said: I would. Is Alan Sheehan Christian, cus that would explain it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 2 hours ago, Matt said: Yes. Less religion please, it's a myth, it brainwashes people. Less generalisation would also be helpful,not all religions are the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 On 2017-6-22 at 17:04, Alf Bentley said: Buce isn't a professional comedian, as far as I'm aware, but he's just posted a joke involving an Imam and circumcision in the joke thread. I don't think he's been taken out by an Islamist hit squad yet, as he posted in another thread. As well as Dara's joke about the Islamic golden horse delivering cakes, Stewart Lee mocked the Muslim who thought Bin Laden shouldn't have been buried at sea as his death wasn't "in exceptional circumstances" - and Chubby Brown's whole set comprised hostile mockery of Muslims. None of them have been assassinated, so you shouldn't be so fearful of cracking a few jokes about Islam, if you feel like it. Of course, I know you're not really fearful. It's just a standard tactic of those promoting Far Right views (fairly subtly, in your case). They talk about "we" and "they/them" and encourage feelings of fear, vulnerability and victimhood vis-à-vis "the alien other" (Muslims, in this case). My point about Churchill and Gladstone was that they lived in completely different times. We have different expectations now. If you want me to relate it directly to Islam, they lived in times when there were very few Muslims in Britain, whereas there are now many Muslims in this country, even grandparents who were born here. I'd view it as deliberate provocation to raise the Quran and describe it as a "violent and cursed book", as Robinson did - and I'd feel the same if some Islamist scum did the same to the Bible or to some atheist, humanist or political book. I'm sure there is violence in the Quran (I've never read it) and know that there is violence in the Bible (having read a few bits of it), All the great western religions were founded in times when violence was more prevalent, so it's unsurprising. But I wouldn't judge either religion as essentially violent for that reason. Some of their extremist fringes are, of course - and that's a particular problem with Islamism at the moment (just as Irish Republican terrorism was a problem a while back, without the Irish being violent as a race). The Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack was appalling - and a good reason for fighting Islamist extremism (as opposed to Islam) as fiercely and intelligently as we can. The same applies to the disgusting attack on the Manchester concert. That doesn't mean we should shrink from expressing ourselves - or shrink from going to gigs. On the contrary, we should seek to combat them intelligently - but carry on as before, doing what we want and saying what we want (while showing a bit of consideration and respect where appropriate). We should also reject the toxic whispers of those who seek to encourage fear and mistrust so as to promote their Far Right agenda - which you sometimes do yourself. I wouldn't directly compare you to Tommy Robinson as I don't really know where you stand. You're a bit of a mystery man. In person, you're a charming, likable chap and good company. On FT you often express yourself well, mainly arguing a fairly mainstream Thatcherite or Libertarian Right viewpoint. But every now and then, you employ Far Right thinking - as you have here. I don't know why. Whether you have some deep-seated hatred for certain groups that bubbles up occasionally or whether you have some sort of Walter Mitty fantasy of associating yourself with dangerous fascists.....I haven't a clue. I compared your comments about Gladstone & Churchill to Robinson's as you clearly took them from him - from an interview in which he was trying to use recent terrorist attacks to provoke Islamophobic hatred. I'm not impressed with any of that - though I'm sure you won't be bothered. What we could do with is more communication and understanding between different groups - less self-exclusion and segregation by race and religion, more communication between Muslims, other faiths and races, and white Brits, particularly those who feel threatened or vulnerable, rightly or wrongly. More action to bring security to the lives of people who lead insecure lives would also be good. It might steer people away from scumbags like Robinson and reduce mistrust and people feeling threatened. Banning all faith schools in favour of integrated schools that teach about all religions and philosophies would also be helpful in avoiding segregation and mistrust. I do agree with your last point that "the days of people swallowing it" (whatever "it" is) might be over. I suggested after the referendum that circumstances (economic decline, Brexit disaster, Islamist terrorism) could combine to produce a big rise in the Far Right. I still think that it very likely, though I think it was you who scoffed at the suggestion a year ago. Given what I heard in Kent about the rise of Britain First, I'm not surprised to hear that Robinson's book is selling well (different group, I know). And that's before any economic/Brexit bad shit descends on people. If there's a big surge for the Far Right, there might be a role in that for you - if you want it. I hope you don't, obviously. The choice isn't between Islamists and the Far Right, as you suggest. Those two have the same interests - polarising opinion and stoking up hatred, conflict and violence. The choice is between the pair of them, on the one hand, and tolerance, communication, mutual respect and democracy, on the other. p.s. What happened to the left-wing coup that you promised yesterday? I was expecting to see the hammer and sickle flying above Downing Street, and McDonnell's grinning mug standing there.... Can you summarise in 3 sentences, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 18 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Classic examples of how our younger years shape our adult beliefs. Both my sets of grandparents were overtly racist when I think back to it. When I was about 7 years old I got given an autograph book for my birthday. I asked my Grandad to sign it and I'll never forget the verse he wrote. 'God made the nigger boys he made them in the night, he made them in a hurry and forgot to paint them white'. To him that was funny, normal and fine - but to an impressionable 7 year old, I wonder how that shaped my beliefs about black people from an early age? And then when I was 14 years old I got severely beaten up by three black guys in an arcade in Leicester while my mates looked on and did fvck all. I felt a lot of anger at that time and again, I'm sure this incident may have shaped my beliefs. But during my adult years I've met many black friends and colleagues and realised that it's dangerous and irresponsible to stereotype people. I've educated myself and also been educated to understand how to behave as a responsible adult in society and treat everyone as an equal human being. Then occasionally I have flash backs to my late teens/early twenties when I followed City and got caught up with the wrong crowd. I hung out with some National Front guys for a short while but luckily I had enough wisdom to see past their vulgar hatred. I still class myself as a right wing Tory but I'm also consciously aware of how I could let myself be manipulated again if I was weak. As mentioned before, I believe it's all about education (or lack of...) I wish it was education that could solve the problem. In India the high caste are the most educated and still inflict the most pain. For me it's about supremacy, every culture, nation, belief, city, district, street, football club see themselves as a better. All of these manifest themselves differently, in all cases divide people. Overall it's human nature, of the fittest survive, having all in your camp, means you survive and are wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 10 hours ago, RODNEY FERNIO said: There has been debate on where the term Wog comes from. The main theory is it is an abbreviation of Westernized Oriental Gentleman .. but don't think this has ever been proven. Also assume the term Pakki is just a shortening of the word Pakistani. It's not what the word means but the power it has. Paki is short for Pakistani, however the demeaned, other words and intent to demanise. I've I've been Pakistan, they would love me to call them Paki, as the word means pure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 3 hours ago, Buce said: Fair enough. Do you think that was true of all white families? What do you think led to the area being predominantly 'Indian'? Idi Amin, kicked out all the Asians from Uganda, most were British citizens, and hence had no where else to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 27 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: Fair point, though I didn't say there wasn't a problem, just that it wasn't as bad as the Islamist problem. That's fair. Honestly though, in terms of overall totalled societal impact (more in the US than in the UK, thankfully) there's a serious contest between the two problems IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 9 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: I wish it was education that could solve the problem. In India the high caste are the most educated and still inflict the most pain. For me it's about supremacy, every culture, nation, belief, city, district, street, football club see themselves as a better. All of these manifest themselves differently, in all cases divide people. Overall it's human nature, of the fittest survive, having all in your camp, means you survive and are wealthy. 4 As much as this is true Singhy, I never really understood people valuing natural selection and 'human nature' (and systems based on it) so much. It's like those people don't remember that natural selection almost invariably ends badly in the long term...but that's an argument for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: As much as this is true Singhy, I never really understood people valuing natural selection and 'human nature' (and systems based on it) so much. It's like those people don't remember that natural selection almost invariably ends badly in the long term...but that's an argument for another time. I suppose so, but look around you, it's everywhere, capatilism is natural selection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross-Kemp Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 2 hours ago, leicsmac said: Nowhere in the OECD nations (abortion clinics being bombed and the occasional doctor being shot notwithstanding), because their reformation meant that they chose much more clever and subtle (and most importantly, deniable) means of asserting their will. Just because the action isn't overt and spectacular doesn't mean it isn't a problem. What are the clever & subtle (and deniable) means you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 4 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: I suppose so, but look around you, it's everywhere, capatilism is natural selection! I totally agree. I really really hope that I'm wrong about what happens with natural selection and systems that rely on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 32 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: Is Alan Sheehan Christian, cus that would explain it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RODNEY FERNIO Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 Quote Agreed Paki is not a horrible word but from my past experience in Leicester it was always said with venom. Luckily ( I'm a white male ) you rarely hear it said now. Think Leicester is probably on the third generation of people who are originally from India/ Pakistan and they are as English as I am in my opinion. Majority have worked very hard. I know a a very intelligent guy whose family were very successful business people in Uganda and literally came to this country with just the clothes they were wearing. Needless to say they are doing very well now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 1 minute ago, Ross-Kemp said: What are the clever & subtle (and deniable) means you speak of? Getting involved in the political machine. Getting political candidates in position who listen to them using various soft power (and indeed being those political candidates at times), ingratiating themselves into the legislature until they are in a position where they can pass or at least affect laws regarding their religion and who it might discriminate against. That's one example that covers a lot of different acts. Again, more of a problem in the US than the UK but it's been pretty damn successful over here as it's only now there's beginning to be pushback against the system they put up a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 12 minutes ago, Ross-Kemp said: What are the clever & subtle (and deniable) means you speak of? Crusades and molesting children! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 32 minutes ago, RODNEY FERNIO said: Agreed Paki is not a horrible word but from my past experience in Leicester it was always said with venom. Luckily ( I'm a white male ) you rarely hear it said now. Think Leicester is probably on the third generation of people who are originally from India/ Pakistan and they are as English as I am in my opinion. Majority have worked very hard. I know a a very intelligent guy whose family were very successful business people in Uganda and literally came to this country with just the clothes they were wearing. Needless to say they are doing very well now. What makes a white male lucky????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RODNEY FERNIO Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 Doesn't have to be racially abused ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 33 minutes ago, RODNEY FERNIO said: Agreed Paki is not a horrible word but from my past experience in Leicester it was always said with venom. Luckily ( I'm a white male ) you rarely hear it said now. Think Leicester is probably on the third generation of people who are originally from India/ Pakistan and they are as English as I am in my opinion. Majority have worked very hard. I know a a very intelligent guy whose family were very successful business people in Uganda and literally came to this country with just the clothes they were wearing. Needless to say they are doing very well now. This is very true especially of the Indians who came from Africa in the 70's and 80's. The work ethic of some of them is immense. I would be interested in stats showing how many Indians (Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or other) who reside in the county are now multi millionaires. I had a few Indian friends, all were hellbent on working for themselves. They all do now (as do I) but it's a great belief that I've noticed from within that community or communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 51 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: I wish it was education that could solve the problem. In India the high caste are the most educated and still inflict the most pain. For me it's about supremacy, every culture, nation, belief, city, district, street, football club see themselves as a better. All of these manifest themselves differently, in all cases divide people. Overall it's human nature, of the fittest survive, having all in your camp, means you survive and are wealthy. Over 20 years ago now I was appointed as the deputy manager of a superstore on St Georges retail park in Leicester. Me and the general manager were both white, and the other deputy manager and the 25 staff were all Asian. The team were a mixture of Sikh's, Hindu's and Muslim's and from day one, I was amazed at the amount of intimidation and bullying among them. I didn't understand the caste system and it was a steep learning curve for me. Some staff who claimed to be from a higher caste would treat those from a lower caste like their own personal slaves. It was a real eye opener for me and a bit of a shock to the system. I was young and inexperienced back then and didn't really know how to deal with it, so I just let everyone sort it out among themselves. I'm not sure if it's still like that or if it was just a 'one off' within that particular store, but it it's made me realise that it wasn't just black vs white or white vs Asian when it comes to division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 1 minute ago, Mickyblueeyes said: This is very true especially of the Indians who came from Africa in the 70's and 80's. The work ethic of some of them is immense. I would be interested in stats showing how many Indians (Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or other) who reside in the county are now multi millionaires. I had a few Indian friends, all were hellbent on working for themselves. They all do now (as do I) but it's a great belief that I've noticed from within that community or communities. Sikhs are the most successful, we excel over our white bredren in all aspects, education,.wealth etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Over 20 years ago now I was appointed as the deputy manager of a superstore on St Georges retail park in Leicester. Me and the general manager were both white, and the other deputy manager and the 25 staff were all Asian. The team were a mixture of Sikh's, Hindu's and Muslim's and from day one, I was amazed at the amount of intimidation and bullying among them. I didn't understand the caste system and it was a steep learning curve for me. Some staff who claimed to be from a higher caste would treat those from a lower caste like their own personal slaves. It was a real eye opener for me and a bit of a shock to the system. I was young and inexperienced back then and didn't really know how to deal with it, so I just let everyone sort it out among themselves. I'm not sure if it's still like that or if it was just a 'one off' within that particular store, but it it's made me realise that it wasn't just black vs white or white vs Asian when it comes to division. Still a problem,. unfortunately. Although Sikhism says castism or any prejudice is a sin, the infiltration of Hinduism into our culture by the British Empire under colonisation to subdue and splinter the Sikhs is still apparent. I'm actually very ashamed it still happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RODNEY FERNIO Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 Was brought up in Oadby ... you've only got to go to the , in my youth , the real posh areas like the broadway, the fairway and Gartree Road to see the amount of gold topped black railings to see how hard they've worked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 3 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: Sikhs are the most successful, we excel over our white bredren in all aspects, education,.wealth etc ?not biased there Dr Singh. No but some stories of people from the Asian community are incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 Just now, Mickyblueeyes said: ?not biased there Dr Singh. No but some stories of people from the Asian community are incredible. Never biased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 23 June 2017 Share Posted 23 June 2017 I really appreciate discussion like the last few pages were people have been able to express opinions without being jumped upon, I absolutely hate twitter whenever a terrorist attack happens because the racist idiots come to the fore but so do people so afraid of being racist that they'll refuse to criticise even Islamic extremists. Another problem though that I don't think has been mentioned enough is how difficult it is to renounce or leave Islam (it's true of other religions too but to a lesser extent), leaving Islamic communities for the majority of muslims leads to them being disowned so it's quite difficult to for a Islam to become less strict over time because there's quite a lot of internal pressure to be devout. Hinduism and Sikhism have become more liberal over time whereas Islam is still quite strict in comparison. I think it'd benefit everybody if over time religion faded into obscurity or if at least religious followers were much less devout. Is it ok to say you don't like Islam? I don't like Christianity either but I feel like it's become taboo to express that belief. I wouldn't be prejudice towards individuals but on the whole I dislike the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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