Dr The Singh Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 21 minutes ago, hejammy said: Oh here we go Mr Singh, rather than getting into this with you I chose to abstain, anyone else want to ask a question I'd be happy to oblige. As mentioned before, don't make assumptions about my faith, I have never mentioned anything about my faith before. I really do not have any time for your antogistic nature Oh and just before you get off your high horse... Have a read: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/my-people-refuse-to-talk-about-honour-killings-1845103.html Seems silly to kill someone because of who they fall in love with right? Never mind a family member.... Its the minority.... Something that a few people chose to ignore Absolutely agree with you. I think honour killings are horrendous.......I'm glad my faith says so aswell, these archiac cultural values must stop. Sikhs have a long journey before they can rid there cultural past and become true Sikhs This is the difference between me and you, I'm open to criticize what is wrong within my kin, I don't try and sugar coat Any how let's get back on track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 2 minutes ago, hejammy said: this is why I said I don't want to get into a discussion with you. You antagonise, use people's post out of context and often put "words in people's mouths". You chose to ignore questions that are not to your liking and become a "closed book" when people talk about your faith and criticise others when they are not open. That's not my idea of a healthy debate. Oh and your question.... I'm not even going to justify it with an answer. You obviously know more about "Islamic" people than anyone. So perhaps you just go ahead and entertain yourself. My last post responding to you so you crack on mate... what have I said. Ok buddy, If I offended you in anyway I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jattdogg Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 Gunna have to put hejammy and singhy into a room and convert them into american evangelical christians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 41 minutes ago, Jattdogg said: Gunna have to put hejammy and singhy into a room and convert them into american evangelical christians I'd prefer Rastafarianism.... Those buggers seem so chilled out. God knows why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackneyfox Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 4 hours ago, MattP said: Because you claimed whatever he said you regarded it a's hate speech, if that's the starting point it would be impossible to be think and consider his points from a neutral standpoint. It's not as if I hadn't listened to his rants prior to my statement. He's a rabble rousing right winger, I know he has an agenda and therefore you can't really take a neutral standpoint to anything he says. What does he add to the discussion that people didn't already know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 3 minutes ago, hackneyfox said: It's not as if I hadn't listened to his rants prior to my statement. He's a rabble rousing right winger, I know he has an agenda and therefore you can't really take a neutral standpoint to anything he says. What does he add to the discussion that people didn't already know? From memory he was the first person I can remember who was publicly making the link between salafist influence in British Mosques and extremism. He's not perfect of course and his behaviour when leader of the EDL was clearly appalling but he did seem to do some good when working with Quillium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackneyfox Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: From memory he was the first person I can remember who was publicly making the link between salafist influence in British Mosques and extremism. He's not perfect of course and his behaviour when leader of the EDL was clearly appalling but he did seem to do some good when working with Quillium. That link has been known for years, he's just more adept at getting that message out there, helped by MSM who were happy to talk about the EDL. He's not an investigative journalist. What happened with him working with Quillium? Seems to be back to his old extreme right wing personna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 22 hours ago, hackneyfox said: Personally I view everything Robinson says as hate speach, even when it sounds reasonable (by his standards) he has an agenda. Saw the most recent post and wanted to see what started it! Hackney... I can understand your position, but the way you'e stated it does leave it open to challenge for those who want to go on a marginal point. Classing everything said as 'hate speech' is quite a claim and has a 'factual' base to it... ...whereas not liking someone because your uncomfortable about an underlying agenda and instantly dismissing their views / feeling they shouldn't be given a platform is probably more or less what you really meant and isn't open to challenge because it's a personal view. TR is also a difficult one to put in the hate speech category because he's quite nuanced and skilled in what he does... he knows where the lines are and is careful not to cross them - doesn't make him any more comfortable to listen to, but sometimes you need an outlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 17 minutes ago, hackneyfox said: That link has been known for years, he's just more adept at getting that message out there, helped by MSM who were happy to talk about the EDL. He's not an investigative journalist. What happened with him working with Quillium? Seems to be back to his old extreme right wing personna. They had some sort of falling out I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 Ha, the Quilliam Foundation... sounds like a would be Villain company in a Bond film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: They had some sort of falling out I think. Was it to do with their Muslim background? Or could he not continue putting on the persona that he didn't mind being so close to the brown people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 19 hours ago, Buce said: Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam But is it: The reason to kill an apostate is only with the intent to eliminate the danger of war, and not for the reason of his disbelief. The punishment of disbelief is far greater with God. Therefore, only such an apostate shall be killed who is actively engaged in war; and usually it is a man, and not a woman. For the same reason, the Holy Prophet has forbidden to kill women. And for this very reason, an apostate female could be killed if she in fact instigates and causes war by her influence and armed force at her disposal. She is not killed because of her apostasy, but for her creating disorder (through war) on earth. The way I read that is, if there is an ongoing conflict, and such person chose to take up sides against the muslims, then death is the punishment as (as bad as it sounds), a belt and braces option. Where the muslim community needs to deal with the issue, is the ISIS mob believe they are at war and subsequently an apostate should be killed as they've declare war on everyone, including the muslims (see attempted terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia yesterday). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 22 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said: But is it: The reason to kill an apostate is only with the intent to eliminate the danger of war, and not for the reason of his disbelief. The punishment of disbelief is far greater with God. Therefore, only such an apostate shall be killed who is actively engaged in war; and usually it is a man, and not a woman. For the same reason, the Holy Prophet has forbidden to kill women. And for this very reason, an apostate female could be killed if she in fact instigates and causes war by her influence and armed force at her disposal. She is not killed because of her apostasy, but for her creating disorder (through war) on earth. The way I read that is, if there is an ongoing conflict, and such person chose to take up sides against the muslims, then death is the punishment as (as bad as it sounds), a belt and braces option. Where the muslim community needs to deal with the issue, is the ISIS mob believe they are at war and subsequently an apostate should be killed as they've declare war on everyone, including the muslims (see attempted terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia yesterday). I don't claim to have any in-depth knowledge of Islam, but these paragraphs were taken from the same Wiki article that you quoted: There are differences of opinion among Islamic scholars about whether, when and how apostasy in Islam should be punished. Abdul Rashied Omar asserts that apostasy was punishable by death. Many Islamic scholars, but not all,[citation needed] consider apostasy as a Hudud (or Hadd) crime, that is one of six "crimes against God" a Muslim can commit, which deserves the fixed punishment of death as that is a "claim of God". Under traditional Islamic law an apostate may be given a waiting period while in incarceration to repent and accept Islam again and if not the apostate is to be killed without any reservations.[80] This traditional view of Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence (maḏāhib) each with their own interpretation of Sharia, varies as follows:[81][82][83] Hanafi – recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[84] Maliki – allows up to ten days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed. Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[83] Shafi'i – waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.[83] Hanbali – waiting period not necessary, but may be granted. Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.[83] Ja'fari – waiting period not necessary, but may be granted according to this Shia fiqh. Male apostate must be executed, states the Jafari fiqh, while a female apostate must be held in solitary confinement till she repents and returns to Islam.[83][84] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 8 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said: Err...Sajid Javid is the business secretary ?. Pretty prominent, vocal and public figure. In the real world, not being taken over by Halal meat there's many out there who do not take part in the census and are not in constant hiding. Seriously, get out more. ONE. Brilliant. And one that really isn't vocal enough about his irreligion. AND one who was named by ISIS as an apostate who should be murdered by the will of Allah, last year. Which literally proves my point. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 24 June 2017 Share Posted 24 June 2017 4 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said: But is it: The reason to kill an apostate is only with the intent to eliminate the danger of war, and not for the reason of his disbelief. The punishment of disbelief is far greater with God. Therefore, only such an apostate shall be killed who is actively engaged in war; and usually it is a man, and not a woman. For the same reason, the Holy Prophet has forbidden to kill women. And for this very reason, an apostate female could be killed if she in fact instigates and causes war by her influence and armed force at her disposal. She is not killed because of her apostasy, but for her creating disorder (through war) on earth. The way I read that is, if there is an ongoing conflict, and such person chose to take up sides against the muslims, then death is the punishment as (as bad as it sounds), a belt and braces option. Where the muslim community needs to deal with the issue, is the ISIS mob believe they are at war and subsequently an apostate should be killed as they've declare war on everyone, including the muslims (see attempted terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia yesterday). The fact that there is literally any justification in the scripture for murdering someone for leaving their religion is utterly abhorrent. Same goes for absolutely every religion with similar preachings, obviously. That there is still debate about the interpretation of God's infallible word just proves that it's been a miserable failure - maybe Allah needs to send a new Prophet to be a bit clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 15 hours ago, Buce said: I don't claim to have any in-depth knowledge of Islam, but these paragraphs were taken from the same Wiki article that you quoted: There are differences of opinion among Islamic scholars about whether, when and how apostasy in Islam should be punished. Abdul Rashied Omar asserts that apostasy was punishable by death. Many Islamic scholars, but not all,[citation needed] consider apostasy as a Hudud (or Hadd) crime, that is one of six "crimes against God" a Muslim can commit, which deserves the fixed punishment of death as that is a "claim of God". Under traditional Islamic law an apostate may be given a waiting period while in incarceration to repent and accept Islam again and if not the apostate is to be killed without any reservations.[80] This traditional view of Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence (maḏāhib) each with their own interpretation of Sharia, varies as follows:[81][82][83] Hanafi – recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[84] Maliki – allows up to ten days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed. Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[83] Shafi'i – waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.[83] Hanbali – waiting period not necessary, but may be granted. Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.[83] Ja'fari – waiting period not necessary, but may be granted according to this Shia fiqh. Male apostate must be executed, states the Jafari fiqh, while a female apostate must be held in solitary confinement till she repents and returns to Islam.[83][84] I certainly don't disagree with you. I read the link and saw what were quite clearly differing views and it was more so a question to your statement, than a statement itself. I too have very limited knowledge on Islam or any other religion for that matter. I think the difficulty in interpreting religion, ideology, faith or anything else in which one believes in, is it is just that, a belief. As much as religions (all of them) try to encompass a "brotherhood", it simply isn't. I am sure there are followers of the same faith on this forum. All will have different reasons as to what makes them follow it. It's personal. Which in turn leaves it open for debate and subsequent corruption (which I do believe the Islamic faith is currently subject to). From personal experiences. I have met many "ex" muslims. Quite openly away from the faith but, in some cases (and the vast majority from a Pakistani background) completely away from their community. Whether they had been disowned or chose to "leave". I wouldn't be able to tell you. The religion, like most other things is at risk of cultural influences as well. Personally, with regards to the ongoing issues, I believe the cultural aspects of those who follow the religion may need attention, rather than the religion. Why are these guys (speaking specifically of British born) choosing a way that is so alien and wasteful to the opportunities they quite clearly have here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 15 hours ago, urban.spaceman said: ONE. Brilliant. And one that really isn't vocal enough about his irreligion. AND one who was named by ISIS as an apostate who should be murdered by the will of Allah, last year. Which literally proves my point. ? Well no. You chose to quote one and subsequently highlighted it as a problem. In turn, I quoted one back who as you have stated is under a threat of death but still lives so quite clearly not a view point all within the faith take. I am sure if we chose to sit all day we could find people on opposite sides to back up our point. My point is just like your irrational fear of being oppressed by Halal meat, the actual story on the ground is different to what the media tells you. Have you ever met an ex Muslim who is in hiding from the threat of death? That was the point of my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 2 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said: Well no. You chose to quote one and subsequently highlighted it as a problem. In turn, I quoted one back who as you have stated is under a threat of death but still lives so quite clearly not a view point all within the faith take. I am sure if we chose to sit all day we could find people on opposite sides to back up our point. My point is just like your irrational fear of being oppressed by Halal meat, the actual story on the ground is different to what the media tells you. Have you ever met an ex Muslim who is in hiding from the threat of death? That was the point of my comment. I know an ex Muslim who has had death threats, UK born and bred. However, majority Muslims are good people band chose to ignore parts of the Qur'an that maybe extreme or contreversial which there are many statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 2 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said: I certainly don't disagree with you. I read the link and saw what were quite clearly differing views and it was more so a question to your statement, than a statement itself. I too have very limited knowledge on Islam or any other religion for that matter. I think the difficulty in interpreting religion, ideology, faith or anything else in which one believes in, is it is just that, a belief. As much as religions (all of them) try to encompass a "brotherhood", it simply isn't. I am sure there are followers of the same faith on this forum. All will have different reasons as to what makes them follow it. It's personal. Which in turn leaves it open for debate and subsequent corruption (which I do believe the Islamic faith is currently subject to). From personal experiences. I have met many "ex" muslims. Quite openly away from the faith but, in some cases (and the vast majority from a Pakistani background) completely away from their community. Whether they had been disowned or chose to "leave". I wouldn't be able to tell you. The religion, like most other things is at risk of cultural influences as well. Personally, with regards to the ongoing issues, I believe the cultural aspects of those who follow the religion may need attention, rather than the religion. Why are these guys (speaking specifically of British born) choosing a way that is so alien and wasteful to the opportunities they quite clearly have here. The thing is with islam, culture and religion come hand in hand, it is a way of life. Sunni Muslims follow Islam according to sunah, which is the way Mohammed lived his life, as he is seen as the perfect human being. Hence, the dress, look and actions are derived from hadiths, his life story. Pakistani culture and Indian culture is similar but yet so different even within themselves, both have a Punjab and they are different from other states. For me, it's all about how religious one is and how open the doctrine is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 Tommy Robinson definitely wasn't the first person to discuss salafist influence in British mosques. Maybe the first to point it out to the angry, string em up brigade on Facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 On 2017-6-24 at 10:06, MattP said: One of the reasons I'm so surprised and bemused why we want more Islam is fifteen years ago I genuinely believe Europe was happy to be heading towards a secular future. So I want less Christianity as well, does that make me far right? Does it means I hate Christians? Is it hate speech? I have to agree with this. Britain seems like a much more religious country than 20 years ago. Both in terms of Muslim communities and rednecks that follow EDL on Facebook. Sad, as Trump would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 3 minutes ago, bovril said: I have to agree with this. Britain seems like a much more religious country than 20 years ago. Both in terms of Muslim communities and rednecks that follow EDL on Facebook. Sad, as Trump would say. Losers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40397028 Newcastle now. edit not thought to be terror related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 9 minutes ago, Strokes said: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40397028 Newcastle now. edit not thought to be terror related. Lost control while sitting holding the brakes apparently. Women drivers eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4DD0gg Posted 25 June 2017 Share Posted 25 June 2017 1 hour ago, Strokes said: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40397028 Newcastle now. edit not thought to be terror related. Oh the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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