Finsbury Park

[Mickyblueeyes]

The thing is whether it be ISIS or people like Tommy Robinson, they attract the weak, Cowards in society. Individuals who struggle to develop their own thought process and when engaged with rational arguments either ignore it or respond with anger as they have not been provided with answers.

 

Arguments such as the "kuffar" is to blame for "hardship" by a kid who grew up in a Three bedroom terrace in an English suburb and not the Gaza Strip is as pathetic as An Argument such as Robinson doesn't have it in for all muslims, peaceful or otherwise is just as daft. A quick review of his twitter page, shows his qualms are with the religion of Islam.

 

On either count dont deny the real reason you admire/follow such thought process. People may not agree but have the conviction to just say it at least.

 

Cowards who want someone to blame for their hardships now want reason in some sad twisted way to justify their existence. Just exist, and rest of us can enjoy life without having to look over our shoulders.

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Buce isn't a professional comedian, as far as I'm aware, but he's just posted a joke involving an Imam and circumcision in the joke thread. I don't think he's been taken out by an Islamist hit squad yet, as he posted in another thread.

As well as Dara's joke about the Islamic golden horse delivering cakes, Stewart Lee mocked the Muslim who thought Bin Laden shouldn't have been buried at sea as his death wasn't "in exceptional circumstances" - and Chubby Brown's whole set comprised hostile mockery of Muslims. None of them have been assassinated, so you shouldn't be so fearful of cracking a few jokes about Islam, if you feel like it. Of course, I know you're not really fearful. It's just a standard tactic of those promoting Far Right views (fairly subtly, in your case). They talk about "we" and "they/them" and encourage feelings of fear, vulnerability and victimhood vis-à-vis "the alien other" (Muslims, in this case).

 

My point about Churchill and Gladstone was that they lived in completely different times. We have different expectations now. If you want me to relate it directly to Islam, they lived in times when there were very few Muslims in Britain, whereas there are now many Muslims in this country, even grandparents who were born here. I'd view it as deliberate provocation to raise the Quran and describe it as a "violent and cursed book", as Robinson did - and I'd feel the same if some Islamist scum did the same to the Bible or to some atheist, humanist or political book. I'm sure there is violence in the Quran (I've never read it) and know that there is violence in the Bible (having read a few bits of it), All the great western religions were founded in times when violence was more prevalent, so it's unsurprising. But I wouldn't judge either religion as essentially violent for that reason. Some of their extremist fringes are, of course - and that's a particular problem with Islamism at the moment (just as Irish Republican terrorism was a problem a while back, without the Irish being violent as a race).

 

The Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack was appalling - and a good reason for fighting Islamist extremism (as opposed to Islam) as fiercely and intelligently as we can. The same applies to the disgusting attack on the Manchester concert. That doesn't mean we should shrink from expressing ourselves - or shrink from going to gigs. On the contrary, we should seek to combat them intelligently - but carry on as before, doing what we want and saying what we want (while showing a bit of consideration and respect where appropriate). We should also reject the toxic whispers of those who seek to encourage fear and mistrust so as to promote their Far Right agenda - which you sometimes do yourself.

 

I wouldn't directly compare you to Tommy Robinson as I don't really know where you stand. You're a bit of a mystery man. In person, you're a charming, likable chap and good company. On FT you often express yourself well, mainly arguing a fairly mainstream Thatcherite or Libertarian Right viewpoint. But every now and then, you employ Far Right thinking - as you have here. I don't know why. Whether you have some deep-seated hatred for certain groups that bubbles up occasionally or whether you have some sort of Walter Mitty fantasy of associating yourself with dangerous fascists.....I haven't a clue. I compared your comments about Gladstone & Churchill to Robinson's as you clearly took them from him - from an interview in which he was trying to use recent terrorist attacks to provoke Islamophobic hatred. I'm not impressed with any of that - though I'm sure you won't be bothered.

 

What we could do with is more communication and understanding between different groups - less self-exclusion and segregation by race and religion, more communication between Muslims, other faiths and races, and white Brits, particularly those who feel threatened or vulnerable, rightly or wrongly. More action to bring security to the lives of people who lead insecure lives would also be good. It might steer people away from scumbags like Robinson and reduce mistrust and people feeling threatened. Banning all faith schools in favour of integrated schools that teach about all religions and philosophies would also be helpful in avoiding segregation and mistrust.

 

I do agree with your last point that "the days of people swallowing it" (whatever "it" is) might be over. I suggested after the referendum that circumstances (economic decline, Brexit disaster, Islamist terrorism) could combine to produce a big rise in the Far Right. I still think that it very likely, though I think it was you who scoffed at the suggestion a year ago. Given what I heard in Kent about the rise of Britain First, I'm not surprised to hear that Robinson's book is selling well (different group, I know). And that's before any economic/Brexit bad shit descends on people. If there's a big surge for the Far Right, there might be a role in that for you - if you want it. I hope you don't, obviously. The choice isn't between Islamists and the Far Right, as you suggest. Those two have the same interests - polarising opinion and stoking up hatred, conflict and violence. The choice is between the pair of them, on the one hand, and tolerance, communication, mutual respect and democracy, on the other.  

 

p.s. What happened to the left-wing coup that you promised yesterday? I was expecting to see the hammer and sickle flying above Downing Street, and McDonnell's grinning mug standing there.... 

Only 400 turned up! I don't know, you get your Spectator magazine and black pudding ready and the left let you down, no idea how to organise a protest these days

 

I appreciate being called a "mystery man" - the truth unfortunately it I'm much more simple, thanks for the compliments, I've actually spent a few hours thinking about this post and tonight went out with a friend who is a Labour member and mentioned a few things to him from it, he said what you have and agreed with it, broadly I'm a right winger but he also said I show elements of far-right thinking, I asked him what and he said broadly the same as you, immigration and anti-Islamic rhetoric, I do believe Britain needs less Sunni Islamic immigration, I would never want to pick on individuals but I just don't see the long term risk as one that is worthwhile, as I say I don't think it's actually going to become a viewpoint that is regarded as too extreme anymore and not one that is on the end of the political spectrum, it wouldn't even surprise me if this sort of opinion came fairly mainstream soon, some of the things we say now about immigration numbers would have been considered racist a few years ago - No one has a definitive political position, 'm sure most on the left have at leats one viewpoint that is

 

No argument from me we need more integration and communication, it's the only way we'll beat this, I was saddened today to see a picture of advertising (I've not posted on here as I don't know if it's genuine picture and am still trying to find out) for the "North London Muslim Housing Association" (supported by the London mayor) - if that's the future I have no idea what the plan in, how do you preach integration by building housing blocks for people of a certain religion?

 

I still don't think we are going to see any sort of major rise in the far right, we are too good a nation for that, we are one who enjoy company of others, one of tolerance. Maybe I'm complacent? I just don't see it though?

 

Enough rambling, I'm pissed, time for QT and This Week.

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Ah, This Week almost forgot.

 

One thing I will pick up from the long posts... the line of where the far right begins so to speak is becoming rather blurred.

 

That is probably because there's a large amount of fear out there that can be tapped into, meaning some people will not consider someone like Tommy Robinson as far right, because he's voicing people's understandable fears. 

 

This problrm is also exacerbated by people just shouting 'racist' at these comments, because it doesn't address the underlying concern and essentially entrenches the originally held view.

 

As touched on greater integration would be a potential solution, but this is always a challenge because people by nature tend to be drawn towards people that show a similarity to them, its human nature. In a way, our base instinct is to hold irrational prejudice to someone 'different' - in my opinion it requires our rational brain to think differently.

 

But perhaps the key in all of this is to try and raise the profile and influence of Muslim women within their own communities. I'm not sure how possible this is, but from my limited knowledge of Islam, women appear to be quite maraginlised and if Western Muslim culture could grow to provide women with greater speaking platforms and influence, I think that would provide a great leap towards progress. 

 

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Ah, This Week almost forgot.

 

One thing I will pick up from the long posts... the line of where the far right begins so to speak is becoming rather blurred.

 

That is probably because there's a large amount of fear out there that can be tapped into, meaning some people will not consider someone like Tommy Robinson as far right, because he's voicing people's understandable fears. 

 

This problem is also eccasabsted by people just shouting 'racist' at these comments, because it doesn't address the underlying concern and essentially entrenches the originally held view.

 

As touched on greater integration would be a potential solution, but this is always a challenge because people by nature tend to be drawn towards people that show a similarity to them, its human nature. In a way, our base instinct is to hold irrational prejudice to someone 'different' - in my opinion it requires our rational brain to think differently.

 

But perhaps the key in all of this is to try and raise the profile and influence of Muslim women within their own communities. I'm not sure how possible this is, but from my limited knowledge of Islam, women appear to be quite maraginlised and if Western Muslim culture could grow to provide women with greater speaking platforms and influence, I think that would provide a great leap towards progress. 

 

Indeed.

 

Fear = Perceived threat.

 

Our brains haven't really changed over the last 100,000 years. Our primal instinct is still to constantly look out for threat and if we feel threatened, our basic 'fight or flight' response takes over.

 

For whatever reason and based on whatever beliefs some people hold, they see some parts of society as a threat. If we feel under threat, we'll do whatever it takes to feel 'safe' and for some that means associating themselves with right wing ideology.

 

And then there's also our 'unconscious bias' playing it's part too. Combine all this with the constant stress of life and our adrenaline fueled lifestyle and it's no wonder some people haven't got the ability to slow down, pause, think, and use their rational brains.

 

Education, education, education is required....

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Indeed.

 

Fear = Perceived threat.

 

Our brains haven't really changed over the last 100,000 years. Our primal instinct is still to constantly look out for threat and if we feel threatened, our basic 'fight or flight' response takes over.

 

For whatever reason and based on whatever beliefs some people hold, they see some parts of society as a threat. If we feel under threat, we'll do whatever it takes to feel 'safe' and for some that means associating themselves with right wing ideology.

 

And then there's also our 'unconscious bias' playing it's part too. Combine all this with the constant stress of life and our adrenaline fueled lifestyle and it's no wonder some people haven't got the ability to slow down, pause, think, and use their rational brains.

 

Education, education, education is required....

 

 

Well I can give you two examples where in built irrational fear effects me, one slightly racist.

 

1.) St Paul's in Bristol had a bit of notorious reputation when I was younger... so whenever I'm there, my hands seem to be a bit tighter in my pockets and I'm a lot more aware of things around me. Completely irrational, because nothing's ever happened to me there, but I still wouldn't hang about there at night for too long.

 

2.) Department stores and their glass ware and fine china section... when I was a kid, my parents made me well aware - "you break anything, i'd have to pay for it out of my pocket money" - and so even to this very day, whenever I go close to anything like that I consciously shrink myself to ensure I have no failing that might accidentally knock something off.

[Manwell Pablo]

10 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Ah, This Week almost forgot.

 

One thing I will pick up from the long posts... the line of where the far right begins so to speak is becoming rather blurred.

 

That is probably because there's a large amount of fear out there that can be tapped into, meaning some people will not consider someone like Tommy Robinson as far right, because he's voicing people's understandable fears. 

 

This problrm is also exacerbated by people just shouting 'racist' at these comments, because it doesn't address the underlying concern and essentially entrenches the originally held view.

 

As touched on greater integration would be a potential solution, but this is always a challenge because people by nature tend to be drawn towards people that show a similarity to them, its human nature. In a way, our base instinct is to hold irrational prejudice to someone 'different' - in my opinion it requires our rational brain to think differently.

 

But perhaps the key in all of this is to try and raise the profile and influence of Muslim women within their own communities. I'm not sure how possible this is, but from my limited knowledge of Islam, women appear to be quite maraginlised and if Western Muslim culture could grow to provide women with greater speaking platforms and influence, I think that would provide a great leap towards progress. 

 

 

Your living in a dream world there.

 

I don't mean to critise the religion specifically for not being rational because very few are but in terms of giving women positions of power and authority you're talking a small miniority of what I would consider very forward thinking muslims that are for it. And ultimiatley the gender roles within in their religion is their business I guess, I despise most religious idealogy, but part of accepting differnet ways of living and living together is letting each other be,  I'm of the opinion part of intergration is letting them deal with their own issues as long as it doesn't impact on the rest of the community, fine, and it'll be some time before Islam accepts women as equal to men on the whole.

 

I'm with Robinson on one thing and the best way to deal with extremisim is for the Islamic community in this country to step up and stand up for itself and try and do something about the acts that are committed in the name of their religion by means of eductation, and fortunatley there are more and more doing that. Another thing I again agree with Robinson on is we should be doing more to tackle the hate preached on our streets whether it be islamic extremist or anti islamic.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Well I can give you two examples where in built irrational fear effects me, one slightly racist.

 

1.) St Paul's in Bristol had a bit of notorious reputation when I was younger... so whenever I'm there, my hands seem to be a bit tighter in my pockets and I'm a lot more aware of things around me. Completely irrational, because nothing's ever happened to me there, but I still wouldn't hang about there at night for too long.

 

2.) Department stores and their glass ware and fine china section... when I was a kid, my parents made me well aware - "you break anything, i'd have to pay for it out of my pocket money" - and so even to this very day, whenever I go close to anything like that I consciously shrink myself to ensure I have no failing that might accidentally knock something off.

Classic examples of how our younger years shape our adult beliefs.

 

Both my sets of grandparents were overtly racist when I think back to it. When I was about 7 years old I got given an autograph book for my birthday. I asked my Grandad to sign it and I'll never forget the verse he wrote. 'God made the nigger boys he made them in the night, he made them in a hurry and forgot to paint them white'.

 

To him that was funny, normal and fine - but to an impressionable 7 year old, I wonder how that shaped my beliefs about black people from an early age? And then when I was 14 years old I got severely beaten up by three black guys in an arcade in Leicester while my mates looked on and did fvck all. I felt a lot of anger at that time and again, I'm sure this incident may have shaped my beliefs.

 

But during my adult years I've met many black friends and colleagues and realised that it's dangerous and irresponsible to stereotype people. I've educated myself and also been educated to understand how to behave as a responsible adult in society and treat everyone as an equal human being.

 

Then occasionally I have flash backs to my late teens/early twenties when I followed City and got caught up with the wrong crowd. I hung out with some National Front guys for a short while but luckily I had enough wisdom to see past their vulgar hatred.

 

I still class myself as a right wing Tory but I'm also consciously aware of how I could let myself be manipulated again if I was weak.

 

As mentioned before, I believe it's all about education (or lack of...)

 

 

[Webbo]

I've told this story before but when we lived in Belgrave, early 70s I would have been 6 or 7, I was sitting on the step with my mate when some Indian women came by and I I'd something like"look at them wogs" . My dad dragged me in and gave me a right thrashing and told me never to say anything like that again, and I never did. 

 

When I got older we moved to Rushey Mead and my dad ran a junior football team , FE77. They go to the mining villages where they'd never seen a black face there, at least half the team were black or Asian. The kids from the village would be up trees firing air rifles at our player and their mams and dads would just laugh. When tried to leave the locals would block the drive, ready to give them a kicking. My dad would put his foot down and make them scatter but when he got home the car would be covered in gob.

 

My dad would tell anyone he was a racist, he didn't believe in mixed marriages for a start but a lot of my mates who played for him would tell you something different. Racism is a funny thing, it doesn't really follow any logic.

 

[Manwell Pablo]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I've told this story before but when we lived in Belgrave, early 70s I would have been 6 or 7, I was sitting on the step with my mate when some Indian women came by and I I'd something like"look at them wogs" . My dad dragged me in and gave me a right thrashing and told me never to say anything like that again, and I never did. 

 

When I got older we moved to Rushey Mead and my dad ran a junior football team , FE77. They go to the mining villages where they'd never seen a black face there, at least half the team were black or Asian. The kids from the village would be up trees firing air rifles at our player and their mams and dads would just laugh. When tried to leave the locals would block the drive, ready to give them a kicking. My dad would put his foot down and make them scatter but when he got home the car would be covered in gob.

 

My dad would tell anyone he was a racist, he didn't believe in mixed marriages for a but a lot of my mates who played for him would tell you something different. Racism is a funny thing, it doesn't really follow any logic.

 

 

Well any self respecting racist knows you've not used the right terminology there at all

 

In all seriousness, it's a question of the times you live in, and actions speak a lot louder than words. Reading that upmost respect to him.

 

 

[Webbo]

6 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Well any self respecting racist knows you've not used the right terminology there at all

 

In all seriousness, it's a question of the times you live in, and actions speak a lot louder than words. Reading that upmost respect to him.

 

 

It was a common word in the 70, they even used it in sitcoms.

[Buce]

6 hours ago, Webbo said:

I've told this story before but when we lived in Belgrave, early 70s I would have been 6 or 7, I was sitting on the step with my mate when some Indian women came by and I I'd something like"look at them wogs" . My dad dragged me in and gave me a right thrashing and told me never to say anything like that again, and I never did. 

 

When I got older we moved to Rushey Mead and my dad ran a junior football team , FE77. They go to the mining villages where they'd never seen a black face there, at least half the team were black or Asian. The kids from the village would be up trees firing air rifles at our player and their mams and dads would just laugh. When tried to leave the locals would block the drive, ready to give them a kicking. My dad would put his foot down and make them scatter but when he got home the car would be covered in gob.

 

My dad would tell anyone he was a racist, he didn't believe in mixed marriages for a start but a lot of my mates who played for him would tell you something different. Racism is a funny thing, it doesn't really follow any logic.

 

 

6 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Well any self respecting racist knows you've not used the right terminology there at all

 

In all seriousness, it's a question of the times you live in, and actions speak a lot louder than words. Reading that upmost respect to him.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

It was a common word in the 70, they even used it in sitcoms.

 

This should help to clarify things:

 

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Miners, never seeing a black face?

[RODNEY FERNIO]

There has been debate on where the term Wog comes from. The main theory is it is an abbreviation of Westernized Oriental Gentleman .. but don't think this has ever been proven.

Also assume the term Pakki is just a shortening of the word Pakistani.

 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

There has been debate on where the term Wog comes from. The main theory is it is an abbreviation of Westernized Oriental Gentleman .. but don't think this has ever been proven.

Also assume the term Pakki is just a shortening of the word Pakistani.

 

 

One suggestion that I heard is that it is an acronym for 'working on government service'. 

The claim is that port workers in Aden wore it as a patch on their clothing as a security measure ( there was terrorist shit going down even then). 

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, MattP said:

Only 400 turned up! I don't know, you get your Spectator magazine and black pudding ready and the left let you down, no idea how to organise a protest these days

 

I appreciate being called a "mystery man" - the truth unfortunately it I'm much more simple, thanks for the compliments, I've actually spent a few hours thinking about this post and tonight went out with a friend who is a Labour member and mentioned a few things to him from it, he said what you have and agreed with it, broadly I'm a right winger but he also said I show elements of far-right thinking, I asked him what and he said broadly the same as you, immigration and anti-Islamic rhetoric, I do believe Britain needs less Sunni Islamic immigration, I would never want to pick on individuals but I just don't see the long term risk as one that is worthwhile, as I say I don't think it's actually going to become a viewpoint that is regarded as too extreme anymore and not one that is on the end of the political spectrum, it wouldn't even surprise me if this sort of opinion came fairly mainstream soon, some of the things we say now about immigration numbers would have been considered racist a few years ago - No one has a definitive political position, 'm sure most on the left have at leats one viewpoint that is

 

No argument from me we need more integration and communication, it's the only way we'll beat this, I was saddened today to see a picture of advertising (I've not posted on here as I don't know if it's genuine picture and am still trying to find out) for the "North London Muslim Housing Association" (supported by the London mayor) - if that's the future I have no idea what the plan in, how do you preach integration by building housing blocks for people of a certain religion?

 

I still don't think we are going to see any sort of major rise in the far right, we are too good a nation for that, we are one who enjoy company of others, one of tolerance. Maybe I'm complacent? I just don't see it though?

 

Enough rambling, I'm pissed, time for QT and This Week.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Matt.

 

I'm sure concern about immigration, particular Muslim immigration, will go mainstream. Immigration is already a hot topic, so if you add in tough economic times, migration into Europe and Islamist terrorism, it's inevitable.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a simultaneous rise in the Far Right and the Revolutionary/Bonkers Left, though whether either is capable of organising a competent political party, or even a protest is questionable.

 

Precisely what immigration we'll need or want is bound to depend greatly on (a) what EU immigration regime comes out of the Brexit process; (b) what measures, if any, we adopt to replace any drop in EU immigrant labour.

Ironically, if we place tough limits on EU immigration for non-specialist jobs and fail to train more British nurses or to encourage more Brits to work in catering/care homes, we might end up importing more labour from Muslim countries.

Ultimately, economic and employment needs and long-term government responses to them will play a big part in immigration numbers, whatever the rhetoric. 

 

There's certainly an argument that we should be careful about who we accept as refugees, and on what terms. The Libyan refugee father of the bloke who carried out the Manchester bombing was a longstanding Al-Qaeda militant. 

 

Integration and communication is difficult, but massively important. I don't think Muslims or anyone else have to be subsumed into some imaginary monolithic white-English culture - just get to know one another and talk to one another. The sort of stuff that @Webbo has mentioned about his Dad running a multiracial football team is a part of that. I really think faith schools should be banned (it was Blair who started to promote them, I think, though the Tories love them, too). Integrated housing/communities is the most difficult, and possibly most important. Immigrants will gravitate towards areas where they have family/friends or others of their race/religion. So, any "social engineering" (often despised, sometimes necessary) needs to work with that - maybe ensuring large immigrant communities are mixed with large native populations in estates or districts to avoid ghettoization and the mistrust it generates. Maybe more shared community centres and shared cultural events would help. Extra funds should be provided - funding future social harmony is a good investment, not a waste (shame the Tories cancelled the Migrant Impact Fund, rather than reform it if they thought it a waste of money).   

 

A final word to show how valuable Muslim immigrant labour can be. For his last 10 months, my Dad had a Tanzanian Muslim woman as his live-in carer. I only realised she was a Muslim after several months, when she explained why she didn't eat pork. She made no issue of her religion. She gave wonderful care and support to my Dad, way beyond the call of professional duty. She recognised, understood and respected him as an individual - and I think she shed as many tears as I did when he died. I'll always feel in her debt for how she eased his last few months. The same applies to the Liberian Christian bloke who did regular external care visits via social services. Almost none of the people who looked after my Dad were pure English, even the highly-educated professionals: his GP was English-born of Greek-Cypriot parentage; his Parkinsons specialist sounded English but had a Polish name (Polish father/husband?); the chemists who did late deliveries were Indians; the helpful speech therapist was Australian; all the carers were black apart from one Greek woman.....a lot of Brits will need training up as replacements if we get too strict on immigration. 

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, Webbo said:

I've told this story before but when we lived in Belgrave, early 70s I would have been 6 or 7, I was sitting on the step with my mate when some Indian women came by and I I'd something like"look at them wogs" . My dad dragged me in and gave me a right thrashing and told me never to say anything like that again, and I never did. 

 

When I got older we moved to Rushey Mead and my dad ran a junior football team , FE77. They go to the mining villages where they'd never seen a black face there, at least half the team were black or Asian. The kids from the village would be up trees firing air rifles at our player and their mams and dads would just laugh. When tried to leave the locals would block the drive, ready to give them a kicking. My dad would put his foot down and make them scatter but when he got home the car would be covered in gob.

 

My dad would tell anyone he was a racist, he didn't believe in mixed marriages for a start but a lot of my mates who played for him would tell you something different. Racism is a funny thing, it doesn't really follow any logic.

 

 

Whatever your Dad said about his views, he probably did more for good race relations than any politician or FT smart-arse (myself included). Hats off to him. How come he produced such a horrible son? 

 

Funny how it's often very white areas that have the most racism, not more integrated areas. Sometimes that may be down to the white areas being poor and believing or imagining that immigrants in neighbouring communities are getting goodies that they are not. But I presume the mining villages wouldn't have been that badly off in the 70s, when the mines were still open - tough working conditions, but comparatively well-paid, mining, I think - or am I wrong? 

 

I've learned something about racist terminology today. I remember the talk about "wogs, niggers and coons" in the 70s, but always thought that "wog" was a synonym for "nigger" and nothing to do with "Pakis"....you live and learn.

Funny how, back then, at least where I grew up (East Kent, which was very white), most of the hostility was reserved for blacks, who were known to do things like rioting at the Notting Hill Carnival, smoking weed and doing lots of crime (allegedly).

In contrast, "Pakis" weren't respected but they were tolerated as quiet people who kept to themselves, ran corner shops etc. East Kent might have been very different from Leicester in the 70s, though....

 

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Matt.

 

I'm sure concern about immigration, particular Muslim immigration, will go mainstream. Immigration is already a hot topic, so if you add in tough economic times, migration into Europe and Islamist terrorism, it's inevitable.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a simultaneous rise in the Far Right and the Revolutionary/Bonkers Left, though whether either is capable of organising a competent political party, or even a protest is questionable.

 

Precisely what immigration we'll need or want is bound to depend greatly on (a) what EU immigration regime comes out of the Brexit process; (b) what measures, if any, we adopt to replace any drop in EU immigrant labour.

Ironically, if we place tough limits on EU immigration for non-specialist jobs and fail to train more British nurses or to encourage more Brits to work in catering/care homes, we might end up importing more labour from Muslim countries.

Ultimately, economic and employment needs and long-term government responses to them will play a big part in immigration numbers, whatever the rhetoric. 

 

There's certainly an argument that we should be careful about who we accept as refugees, and on what terms. The Libyan refugee father of the bloke who carried out the Manchester bombing was a longstanding Al-Qaeda militant. 

 

Integration and communication is difficult, but massively important. I don't think Muslims or anyone else have to be subsumed into some imaginary monolithic white-English culture - just get to know one another and talk to one another. The sort of stuff that @Webbo has mentioned about his Dad running a multiracial football team is a part of that. I really think faith schools should be banned (it was Blair who started to promote them, I think, though the Tories love them, too). Integrated housing/communities is the most difficult, and possibly most important. Immigrants will gravitate towards areas where they have family/friends or others of their race/religion. So, any "social engineering" (often despised, sometimes necessary) needs to work with that - maybe ensuring large immigrant communities are mixed with large native populations in estates or districts to avoid ghettoization and the mistrust it generates. Maybe more shared community centres and shared cultural events would help. Extra funds should be provided - funding future social harmony is a good investment, not a waste (shame the Tories cancelled the Migrant Impact Fund, rather than reform it if they thought it a waste of money).   

 

A final word to show how valuable Muslim immigrant labour can be. For his last 10 months, my Dad had a Tanzanian Muslim woman as his live-in carer. I only realised she was a Muslim after several months, when she explained why she didn't eat pork. She made no issue of her religion. She gave wonderful care and support to my Dad, way beyond the call of professional duty. She recognised, understood and respected him as an individual - and I think she shed as many tears as I did when he died. I'll always feel in her debt for how she eased his last few months. The same applies to the Liberian Christian bloke who did regular external care visits via social services. Almost none of the people who looked after my Dad were pure English, even the highly-educated professionals: his GP was English-born of Greek-Cypriot parentage; his Parkinsons specialist sounded English but had a Polish name (Polish father/husband?); the chemists who did late deliveries were Indians; the helpful speech therapist was Australian; all the carers were black apart from one Greek woman.....a lot of Brits will need training up as replacements if we get too strict on immigration. 

 

I'm not sure if that's workable, Alf.

 

I'm sure Webbo will confirm that the Melton Rd/Belgrave Rd area was a bastion of the white working class at the point that the Asians began to arrive. What we see now is evidence of 'White flight' in the 70's.

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I'm not sure if that's workable, Alf.

 

I'm sure Webbo will confirm that the Melton Rd/Belgrave Rd area was a bastion of the white working class at the point that the Asians began to arrive. What we see now is evidence of 'White flight' in the 70's.

 

Difficult, certainly - and probably more difficult now that there's less council housing stock. But there must be ways and means, given the political will....

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Difficult, certainly - and probably more difficult now that there's less council housing stock. But there must be ways and means, given the political will....

 

You can lead a horse to water...

 

I don't think the will is there among the communities.

[Alf Bentley]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You can lead a horse to water...

 

I don't think the will is there among the communities.

 

 

We need Stalinist councils imposing compulsory social engineering, then! 

[hackneyfox]

14 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Another thing I again agree with Robinson on is we should be doing more to tackle the hate preached on our streets whether it be islamic extremist or anti islamic.

Yet Robinson is one of those preaching hate on our streets.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Yet Robinson is one of those preaching hate on our streets.

A few people have claimed this now but has he actually been convicted of it?

[Webbo]

4 hours ago, Buce said:

 

I'm not sure if that's workable, Alf.

 

I'm sure Webbo will confirm that the Melton Rd/Belgrave Rd area was a bastion of the white working class at the point that the Asians began to arrive. What we see now is evidence of 'White flight' in the 70's.

My memories go back to about 1970. All our neighbours were white at the time but I can never remember a time when there weren't Indians (for want of a better word) about. At school maybe a quarter or a third of the kids were indian.

 

We we moved to Rushey Mead in around 73-74,as did a lot of the kids families I knew at school. It wasn't white flight, I was sharing a bedroom with my 2 sisters. It was just natural progression to go from a terrace house to a semi

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

A few people have claimed this now but has he actually been convicted of it?

Worse. Mortgage fraud

[Buce]

23 minutes ago, Webbo said:

My memories go back to about 1970. All our neighbours were white at the time but I can never remember a time when there weren't Indians (for want of a better word) about. At school maybe a quarter or a third of the kids were indian.

 

We we moved to Rushey Mead in around 73-74,as did a lot of the kids families I knew at school. It wasn't white flight, I was sharing a bedroom with my 2 sisters. It was just natural progression to go from a terrace house to a semi

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Do you think that was true of all white families? What do you think led to the area being predominantly 'Indian'?