Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Average tariffs tell you nothing about how you will personally be hit. On cheeses it's about 40%. I quite like mozzarella on my pizza and parmesan on my pasta.

 

You think we'd slap additional export tariffs on our goods? Well this just gets better and better doesn't it? 

You'll be please to know we make mozzarella in this country now. Good news for farming who might have gone out of business when we allow chlorinated chicken into this country.

 

We don't stick tariffs on our goods, it's the importing country that does that.

[Izzy]

I think many people voted for Brexit because it sounds vaguely like it could be the name of a chocolate wafer biscuit bar.

 

Maybe if the Remain option had been called ‘Twix’ instead, then we wouldn’t be in this mess  

[leicsmac]

Just now, Webbo said:

Let's be fair here, how much of that has there been, on here anyway. For every traitor quote there's a hundred accusations of racism of stupidity from the remainers.

 

If people are attacked for voting for what they believe to be for the best, then it's unsurprising if they get a little shifty in their replies.

Not much on here (people are thankfully more nuanced than that usually), plenty out in the world in general and the Brexit-supporting press in particular, which I believe is the point that Kopf was making.

 

And yes, they're evidently printing what some people want to hear because if they didn't they wouldn't sell.

[Sharpe's Fox]

The Left 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Let's be fair here, how much of that has there been, on here anyway. For every traitor quote there's a hundred accusations of racism of stupidity from the remainers.

 

If people are attacked for voting for what they believe to be for the best, then it's unsurprising if they get a little shifty in their replies.

Aaron banks has today made it very clear that immigration was the clarion call used to away public opinion. Just go and look at the public comments on the sun's website. Maybe foxestalk just had a set of leavers who are all entirely untouched by the dogwhistle immigration debate but there is no doubt amongst the leave campaigners themselves that it was top billing in their campaign.

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

 

And yes, they're evidently printing what some people want to hear because if they didn't they wouldn't sell.

Why do you think toddy always quotes The Guardian?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Why do you think toddy always quotes The Guardian?

I don't. You only bother to notice the Guardian ones though. 

[Vacamion]

9 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think many people voted for Brexit because it sounds vaguely like it could be the name of a chocolate wafer biscuit bar.

 

Maybe if the Remain option had been called ‘Twix’ instead, then we wouldn’t be in this mess  

 

Following Viz Comic on Twitter, are we?

 

 

Edited 12 June 2018 by Vacamion

[leicsmac]

Just now, Webbo said:

Why do you think toddy always quotes The Guardian?

Whataboutism, Webs. 

 

Like Kopf in his post, I personally make no excuse for the press on either side of this debate, and also like him I believe there to be hardcore elements on both sides who are keen to achieve their aims through whatever means necessary, and that they do have pretty equal billing all elements considered.

 

They both should be highlighted, as Kopf has done in his previous post.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

Following Viz Comic on Twitter, are we?

 

 

 

All of my material is stolen from Viz mate 

[ealingfox]

Can't remember any of the Remain-supporting press putting an equivalent of Enemies of the People or Crush the Saboteurs on their front pages tbh.

 

Look at the state of the right wing rags this morning ffs. 

[Alf Bentley]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I would say that with the rest of the world growing fasting than the EU there is plenty of opportunity to sell more to them. Also, you assume that trade with Europe will stop, unless the rest of the EU decide to impose sanctions on us, why would it?

 

Our strength is services. Could we sell more to them? Don't know. The fact that we can buy stuff off them more cheaply than we could before will be a boost to our economy on its own.

 

There is more to the world than just Australia and New Zealand. India alone has a bigger population than the EU. If we got a trade deal with them the Scotch whisky industry would have to double production. Then you've got China, Brazil and a whole host of growing countries.

 

I do NOT assume that trade with Europe will stop - and did not say that. The more tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade are erected, the more I'd expect it to shrink - but not to stop. EU-UK trade would continue even on the hardest of Hard Brexit terms, I'm sure - just at a significantly lower level, with all the damage that would cause to UK business, jobs, tax revenues, society etc.

 

Yes, there'll be opportunities to sell more globally - as there are already. But they won't be easy opportunities. Some goods and services will be non-viable due to distance or price. Meanwhile, we'll be competing not only with other EU nations (which will start with an advantage in countries like South Korea, as they already have a SK-EU FTA), but with local trade blocs (e.g. ASEAN - SE Asian equivalent of EU) and local nations, which will enjoy benefits of proximity or price. Why would Japan or even Australia buy products from us if they were cheaper from China? With India, as I've mentioned, they want increased Indian immigration to the UK as one of the prices for a trade deal - and other large and growing economies will also be flexing their muscles before signing any deals.

 

Scotch whisky isn't a bad suggestion, mind you. I think that it rates among the UK's top 10 exports! Lots already going to Japan and China, I think. Even so, we'll need to export a much wider range than that. I'm sure there is some potential to export more services, though we'd probably have to improve our language skills as a nation - and many services are now being performed in cheaper countries (e.g. Indian call centres).

 

The bottom line is: any Brexit will cause some loss in trade with EU, and a very hard Brexit will cause a major loss in trade (not all trade, of course, and I've no idea what percentage - but significant). Even if we're successful in negotiating FTAs around the world, that will take a good few years. In the meantime, we'll be trading on worse terms than before with many nations around the globe - and will need to greatly increase sales of goods and services.....when none of us has much idea which goods and services we could sell a lot more of. That's a recipe for serious economic/social problems if we don't do a good deal with the EU.

 

I appreciate that isn't your No. 1 priority. You've said you'd be happy to see Brexit proceed even if it causes serious economic/social problems for you, your family and your nation. The benefits of taking back national democratic control, you say - even if you end up taking back control of a smoking ruins! 

 

Anyway, must work now! 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Can't remember any of the Remain-supporting press putting an equivalent of Enemies of the People or Crush the Saboteurs on their front pages tbh.

 

Look at the state of the right wing rags this morning ffs. 

They would be had Remain won the referendum 52-48 but Leave MP's were passing a motion for us to leave it because they had the numbers through constituency votes.

 

The cabinet should still be ok today but the numbers are interesting, the Labour Hull MP is apparantly going to break the whip as well to vote against the EEA Lords amendment rather than abstain, which would be a big message on a vote the government are sure to win.

 

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Whataboutism, Webs. 

 

Like Kopf in his post, I personally make no excuse for the press on either side of this debate, and also like him I believe there to be hardcore elements on both sides who are keen to achieve their aims through whatever means necessary, and that they do have pretty equal billing all elements considered.

 

They both should be highlighted, as Kopf has done in his previous post.

Not whataboutary at all just pointing out that the remain are no better.

 

the difference between the 2 sides is, leave won. Ever since that day we've had persistant attempts to delegitimise the vote.

It was only advisory,we didn't let 16 year olds vote, only old people voted for it, the people who voted for it are to stupid to be allowed the vote,we all believed what was written on a bus, we've been brainwashed by Russian trolls, referendums were used by Hitler so they shouldn't be used,the people deserve another referendum.

 

Now imo the stupidest thing this country could do is elect Cornyn but if he won the election I'd accept it. I wouldn't used any of those reasons to try and stop him becoming PM. It's called democracy.

[Buce]

14 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

All of my material is stolen from Viz mate 

 

At least we know who to blame now...

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Not whataboutary at all just pointing out that the remain are no better.

 

the difference between the 2 sides is, leave won. Ever since that day we've had persistant attempts to delegitimise the vote.

It was only advisory,we didn't let 16 year olds vote, only old people voted for it, the people who voted for it are to stupid to be allowed the vote,we all believed what was written on a bus, we've been brainwashed by Russian trolls, referendums were used by Hitler so they shouldn't be used,the people deserve another referendum.

 

Now imo the stupidest thing this country could do is elect Cornyn but if we won the election I'd accept it. I wouldn't used any of those reasons to try and stop him becoming PM. It's called democracy.

What is pointing out the faults of the other side when the flaws in one's own are talked about if not whataboutery?

 

One side has its "gammon racist little Englanders", the other has its "traitorous enemies of the people". We can go on about who started what til the cows come home but tbh that's a lot like a lot of current longrunning conflicts around the globe - degeneracy into simply "he-said-she-said" BS (Exhibit A: the Arab-Israeli conflict).

 

And I'm sorry, but a direct democratic decision that was carried by a couple of percentage points doesn't render future debate on the topic or indeed criticism of it null and void. If there are enough people with enough will to see it happen then it will happen in spite of all the criticism levelled at it - and that, IMO, is what Leavers should be focusing on right now.

[Vacamion]

18 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

All of my material is stolen from Viz mate 

 

I always thought you had unfeasably large amounts of Fnarr Fnarr.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

They would be had Remain won the referendum 52-48 but Leave MP's were passing a motion for us to leave it because they had the numbers through constituency votes.

 

The cabinet should still be ok today but the numbers are interesting, the Labour Hull MP is apparantly going to break the whip as well to vote against the EEA Lords amendment rather than abstain, which would be a big message on a vote the government are sure to win.

 

 

As far as I'm aware, there's no motion for us to Remain in the EU, only motions/amendments about the type of Brexit, parliamentary scrutiny of the final deal etc.

 

The mirror image of the current situation would be if Remain had won 52-48 and used that to negotiate joining the Euro and a full federal Europe - and the Leave side fought that, saying "we accept staying in the EU, but not the extreme version of Remain you're pursuing".

[Webbo]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

What is pointing out the faults of the other side when the flaws in one's own are talked about if not whataboutery?

 

One side has its "gammon racist little Englanders", the other has its "traitorous enemies of the people". We can go on about who started what til the cows come home but tbh that's a lot like a lot of current longrunning conflicts around the globe - degeneracy into simply "he-said-she-said" BS (Exhibit A: the Arab-Israeli conflict).

 

And I'm sorry, but a direct democratic decision that was carried by a couple of percentage points doesn't render future debate on the topic or indeed criticism of it null and void. If there are enough people with enough will to see it happen then it will happen in spite of all the criticism levelled at it - and that, IMO, is what Leavers should be focusing on right now.

Criticise by all means,try to reverse the decision undemocraticaly  not on. Also if criticism is fair,it's also fair to criticise the criticisers.I

 

 

This effing tablet,auto correct is a pain in the arse.

[leicsmac]

28 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Criticise by all means,try to reverse the decision undemocraticaly  not on. Also if criticism is fair,it's also fair to criticise the criticisers.I

 

 

This effing tablet,auto correct is a pain in the arse.

6

Absolutely it is, freedom of action means freedom of consequence, after all.

 

As reversal of decision by undemocratic purposes is not on, however, neither should be any attempt to stifle criticism of this topic.

 

Honestly, the whole thing right now is such a morass of bad feeling, antipathy and polarisation that I'm pretty sick of it. Just get something done - though I accept it's likely going to colour the UK political landscape for a very long time to come.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely it is, freedom of action means freedom of consequence, after all.

 

As reversal of decision by undemocratic purposes is not on, however, neither should be any attempt to stifle criticism of this topic.

 

Honestly, the whole thing right now is such a morass of bad feeling, antipathy and polarisation that I'm pretty sick of it. Just get something done - though I accept it's likely going to colour the UK political landscape for a very long time to come.

Isnt in remarkable the split its created in the country.  Like a big arbitrary axe chopped a gash right down the middle, now we're all constantly arguing about it

 

All seems very futile and senseless

[Realist Guy In The Room]

3 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Isnt in remarkable the split its created in the country.  Like a big arbitrary axe chopped a gash right down the middle, now we're all constantly arguing about it

 

All seems very futile and senseless

It’s lke ‘Kermorgant was decent’ all over again.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

Can't remember any of the Remain-supporting press putting an equivalent of Enemies of the People or Crush the Saboteurs on their front pages tbh.

 

Look at the state of the right wing rags this morning ffs. 

Soubry has said that a number of mps aren't voting with their consciences today because they've received death threats etc. Leavers won the referendum but are so paranoid that they've resorted to this sort of behavior. If you look at the comments on the sun's online content you'll see that there's a lot of people that have very strong opinions about mps voting 'against' the hard Brexit dream. It's despicable. It's the real face of the racist fools and more needs to be done to deal with the right wing media that has fed this frenzy of hate.

Edited 12 June 2018 by Guest

[Beechey]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Soubry has said that a number of mps aren't voting with their consciences today because they've received death threats etc. Leavers won the referendum but are so paranoid that they've resorted to this sort of behavior. If you look at the comments on the sun's online content you'll see that there's a lot of people that have very strong opinions about mps voting 'against' the hard Brexit dream. It's despicable. It's the real face of the racist fools and more needs to be done to deal with the right wing media that has fed this frenzy of hate.

 

I find it hard to believe they're not voting that way because they're scared for their lives. I think it's more likely they're voting that way because it's government policy, and the Conservative government is fragile. If they fail to push through their vision of the EU, the government won't survive. Soubry might be fighting on her convictions which is admirable, but she occasionally comes out with some utter nonsense.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Beechey said:

I find it hard to believe they're not voting that way because they're scared for their lives. I think it's more likely they're voting that way because it's government policy, and the Conservative government is fragile. If they fail to push through their vision of the EU, the government won't survive. Soubry might be fighting on her convictions which is admirable, but she occasionally comes out with some utter nonsense.

But the idea that the government should be able to go away and do what in wants in the event that parliament says no to the deal is akin to a banana republic. It's shameful. Of course it should be for parliament to determine. 

 

As Ken Clarke pointed out, whatever deal is reached with the EU will need to be signed off by 27 different EU parliaments, each of whom retains absolute sovereignty over whether the deal proceeds or not. Our government is being forced to not act like a dictatorship.

 

On the Trump thread Matt possibly had a point when mentioning that many in there have argued against Trump for threatening nuclear war and then again when meeting to hold talks. Many in here rightly criticise despots and dictators around the world but then, when it comes to Brexit - which is happening - decry any discussion of parliament properly holding the government to account.

Edited 12 June 2018 by Guest