Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Nick]

I’m looking forward to my taxes being spent on Theresa’s Festival of Brexit.

 

When the economy starts slowing, the arse falls out of the housing market and jobs start to go she can say “Don’t pay any attention to all that, look over here, there’s twats with sticks in a town near you, dancing round a maypole painted with spitfires and red buses drinking English ale on a green patch of land near those new unfinished housing estates”

 

For half the country it’ll be like grave dancing.

 

Incredible scenes.

 

 

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

I’m looking forward to my taxes being spent on Theresa’s Festival of Brexit.

 

When the economy starts slowing, the arse falls out of the housing market and jobs start to go she can say “Don’t pay any attention to all that, look over here, there’s twats with sticks in a town near you, dancing round a maypole painted with spitfires and red buses drinking English ale on a green patch of land near those new unfinished housing estates”

 

For half the country it’ll be like grave dancing.

 

Incredible scenes.

 

Some care homes apparently recreate experiences and events from decades ago so patients with dementia can relive their youth. This is the first time I've seen the experiment taken to a national level. 

[Guest MattP]

I think the "festival" is supposed to be to show the best of the nation's talent in art, technology and business. 

 

Great shame actually, if you have never seen the Anstey Morrismen dancing at the Crown during the real ale festival you haven't lived - that would be great.

 

Ironic this was mentioned though as morris dancing was fairly new and widely practised in celebration when we had our first "Brexit" when Henry VIII broke off from Rome. So it would be quite traditional were we to do so again. 

Edited 1 October 2018 by MattP

[lifted*fox]

26 minutes ago, MattP said:

Great shame actually, if you have never seen the Anstey Morrismen dancing at the Crown during the real ale festival you haven't lived

 

I'll add it to my bucket list right away. Lots on there though so will have to scrub off some boring shit like climbing mt. Fuji or swimming with Manatees.

[lifted*fox]

@MattP in all seriousness, when I was a little yout my mum said I was MAD about morris dancing. proper loved watching it and we visited loads of village fetes and shit so I could check it out. 

 

wtf, right. 

 

still - I carried on my obsession with people dancing around poles by taking a healthy interest in strip clubs in my later years. can't convince my parents to take me though. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

@MattP in all seriousness, when I was a little yout my mum said I was MAD about morris dancing. proper loved watching it and we visited loads of village fetes and shit so I could check it out. 

 

wtf, right. 

 

still - I carried on my obsession with people dancing around poles by taking a healthy interest in strip clubs in my later years. can't convince my parents to take me though. 

 

When I went to it I did actually enjoy it, loads of people turned up as well. Probably more out of curiosity than anything. 

 

It was actually quite interesting learning about it and the different clans, I always thought the facepaint was a bit of excuse to black up, they are all blue and black at our event which traces back to the English and Scottish borders I was told.

 

Any excuse for a piss up and a jig anyway. 

[Alf Bentley]

54 minutes ago, MattP said:

Ironic this was mentioned though as morris dancing was fairly new and widely practised in celebration when we had our first "Brexit" when Henry VIII broke off from Rome. So it would be quite traditional were we to do so again. 

 

Sackings of monasteries, appropriation of the wealth of the Catholic Church by a Protestant English crown, colonization of Ireland.....a repeat of Henry VIII's policies would certainly keep the DUP loyal to the Confidence & Supply agreement. 

 

Though their ancestors would mainly have been citizens of an independent Scotland in Henry's time... 

[Innovindil]

 

Morris dancing a must see ffs 

[Guest MattP]

He's just completely taking the piss now

 

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-trolls-theresa-may-by-running-through-field-of-wheat-11514322

 

 

[lifted*fox]

 

 

 

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Guest MattP]

Hardly surprising, I wouldn't bother turning up for Hammond either.

 

Take a look at the numbers wanting to see Rees-Mogg. A backbencher. I bet you it's full for Boris as well wherever he speaks. 

 

 

[Lionator]

Literally came to this forum to say why the Tories don't roll out Hammond more but then I realised that he's one of the only one of them who's honest and has common sense so it's no wonder they don't.

[Brizzle Fox]

20 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Literally came to this forum to say why the Tories don't roll out Hammond more but then I realised that he's one of the only one of them who's honest and has common sense so it's no wonder they don't.

My thoughts exactly. I always think he cones across really well whenever I hear him speak and appears to actually have a brain...Maybe this should go in the unpopular opinions thread instead?

[Strokes]

.

Edited 2 October 2018 by Strokes

[fuchsntf]

Many worried that...The present dreadfull govt,and the people had no decent  opposition.

Now it looks like if there a change.....Only the colour changes, and "dreadfull"  and the "no decent". Just swap chairs!!!!

 

 

[Guest MattP]

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7393078/julia-hartley-brewer-safe-space-ban/

 

LABOUR has banned TalkRadio host Julia Hartley-Brewer from its conference next year.

 

The party issued the edict yesterday because of complaints that she had violated its “safe space” at last week’s conference in Liverpoolby shouting “boo”.

 

Labour accused her of committing a “hate crime” against disabled people who felt vulnerable.

[Innovindil]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7393078/julia-hartley-brewer-safe-space-ban/

 

LABOUR has banned TalkRadio host Julia Hartley-Brewer from its conference next year.

 

The party issued the edict yesterday because of complaints that she had violated its “safe space” at last week’s conference in Liverpoolby shouting “boo”.

 

Labour accused her of committing a “hate crime” against disabled people who felt vulnerable.

Just seen this on Twitter. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Just seen this on Twitter. 

Hopefully LBC can sneak Farage in next year, then we'll see some anxiety when they see him in the safe space

[Innovindil]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Hopefully LBC can sneak Farage in next year, then we'll see some anxiety when they see him in the safe space

They'll have learnt from this. Safe space security next year. 

[Alf Bentley]

Sky suggesting that May is seeking a compromise to resolve the urgent Irish border issue: https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-dup-pushing-back-hard-on-new-northern-ireland-backstop-proposal-11514825

 

"A source said "a number of different hybrid models" are being floated, all of which provide for UK-wide alignment with relevant EU customs union rules. It will also provide for Northern Ireland's specific regulatory alignment with the Single Market and technological checks, as well as extra physical checks on food and agriculture on UK trade going into ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland..... 

 

Regulatory checks across the Irish Sea, particularly in regard to food and agriculture are being contemplated, and do, to a small extent, already occur, for example, on cattle. 

One option is one-way checks to only check produce going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, enabling the DUP to say that the access of its produce to UK markets would remain free and unimpeded. Michel Barnier's team have already indicated that many checks on customs, VAT and product standards could take place technologically, but that food and agriculture trade would need physical checks".

 

Might this be accepted by the EU? May would then hope to get a promising initial agreement on future EU-UK trade (though that wouldn't be finalised for a year or two). So, she could present Parliament & her ERG opponents with an ultimatum: divorce deal, including no hard border in Ireland, 21-month transition period, and a promising initial agreement on a future EU-UK trade deal....and see if they vote it down - at the risk of No Deal, no transition period (so massive anger from business), election, referendum etc. Could she persuade the DUP to accept this, though?

[Strokes]

20 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sky suggesting that May is seeking a compromise to resolve the urgent Irish border issue: https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-dup-pushing-back-hard-on-new-northern-ireland-backstop-proposal-11514825

 

"A source said "a number of different hybrid models" are being floated, all of which provide for UK-wide alignment with relevant EU customs union rules. It will also provide for Northern Ireland's specific regulatory alignment with the Single Market and technological checks, as well as extra physical checks on food and agriculture on UK trade going into ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland..... 

 

Regulatory checks across the Irish Sea, particularly in regard to food and agriculture are being contemplated, and do, to a small extent, already occur, for example, on cattle. 

One option is one-way checks to only check produce going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, enabling the DUP to say that the access of its produce to UK markets would remain free and unimpeded. Michel Barnier's team have already indicated that many checks on customs, VAT and product standards could take place technologically, but that food and agriculture trade would need physical checks".

 

Might this be accepted by the EU? May would then hope to get a promising initial agreement on future EU-UK trade (though that wouldn't be finalised for a year or two). So, she could present Parliament & her ERG opponents with an ultimatum: divorce deal, including no hard border in Ireland, 21-month transition period, and a promising initial agreement on a future EU-UK trade deal....and see if they vote it down - at the risk of No Deal, no transition period (so massive anger from business), election, referendum etc. Could she persuade the DUP to accept this, though?

I think she would get any deal through the house if I’m honest Alf. If it’s a choice between “the deal” or no deal.

I know Labour say they’ll vote it down if it doesn’t meet the tests but I think MPs like Chuka will offset the ERG and defy Labour if they stand against in any case.

 

[Alf Bentley]

14 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think she would get any deal through the house if I’m honest Alf. If it’s a choice between “the deal” or no deal.

I know Labour say they’ll vote it down if it doesn’t meet the tests but I think MPs like Chuka will offset the ERG and defy Labour if they stand against in any case.

 

 

A deal along these lines would certainly present various groups with a dilemma: Labour, Tory Remainers, ERG, DUP.

A while ago, I couldn't see anything getting through Parliament, but I wonder if something like this could?

 

Would enough MPs be prepared to vote it down and risk No Deal, no transition period, potential business relocations & lost jobs, a hard Irish border - or an election or referendum? Maybe not...

 

Plus, there's a bit of something for everyone in this sort of a deal: Transition period so no immediate crisis, no hard border in Ireland, outside SM so no freedom of movement, outside the CU so presumably still able to negotiate own trade deals but "UK-wide alignment with CU" (Labour's policy, in effect!). Of course, the massive issue of May's common rule book for goods, but not services, would be undecided....but an ambiguous fudge of a policy could kick that can down the road, as it doesn't need to be finalised until the end of the transition period....

 

The DUP won't like such concessions, but enough to risk an economic crisis, a hard border and an election that could well eliminate their influence? Plus, the Govt can always "stuff their mouths with gold" as Bevan did with the medical profession to eliminate opposition to the creation of the NHS...

 

As you say, I could imagine such a deal peeling off a few votes from Labour - and also from the less committed ERG people. Whether May would harvest enough votes to get such a deal through parliament, I don't know. But MPs will be aware that there's a lot of Brexit fatigue among an uncomprehending electorate. Many voters just want the issue sorted now - and might take a dim view of anyone perceived to have needlessly sunk a potential deal, particularly if that leads to economic problems, job losses, generalised nastiness, and maybe an election or a second referendum....

 

Of course, the Labour leadership want an election (or referendum, if not) and Boris wants May's job, but I'm not sure either of them has a path to what they want.

Plus, they both might actually have a better chance after an EU divorce deal is finalised. Many voters would disapprove of the Tories changing leader before these initial negotiations are complete. After a divorce deal, the transition period might be better timing for Tories wanting rid of May. Meanwhile, many Labourites would see a big risk in triggering an immediate election, even if Corbyn wants one....whereas, in a few months time, with a divorce deal done but maybe a certain amount of economic crap still happening, their chances might be better. Several recent polls have suggested that voters currently favour May over either Corbyn or Boris - maybe wanting stable leadership while the Brexit divorce deal is finalised. But that might not last if things settle down a bit in 2019 (albeit with EU-UK trade deal negotiations ongoing). 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A deal along these lines would certainly present various groups with a dilemma: Labour, Tory Remainers, ERG, DUP.

A while ago, I couldn't see anything getting through Parliament, but I wonder if something like this could?

 

Would enough MPs be prepared to vote it down and risk No Deal, no transition period, potential business relocations & lost jobs, a hard Irish border - or an election or referendum? Maybe not...

 

Plus, there's a bit of something for everyone in this sort of a deal: Transition period so no immediate crisis, no hard border in Ireland, outside SM so no freedom of movement, outside the CU so presumably still able to negotiate own trade deals but "UK-wide alignment with CU" (Labour's policy, in effect!). Of course, the massive issue of May's common rule book for goods, but not services, would be undecided....but an ambiguous fudge of a policy could kick that can down the road, as it doesn't need to be finalised until the end of the transition period....

 

The DUP won't like such concessions, but enough to risk an economic crisis, a hard border and an election that could well eliminate their influence? Plus, the Govt can always "stuff their mouths with gold" as Bevan did with the medical profession to eliminate opposition to the creation of the NHS...

 

As you say, I could imagine such a deal peeling off a few votes from Labour - and also from the less committed ERG people. Whether May would harvest enough votes to get such a deal through parliament, I don't know. But MPs will be aware that there's a lot of Brexit fatigue among an uncomprehending electorate. Many voters just want the issue sorted now - and might take a dim view of anyone perceived to have needlessly sunk a potential deal, particularly if that leads to economic problems, job losses, generalised nastiness, and maybe an election or a second referendum....

 

Of course, the Labour leadership want an election (or referendum, if not) and Boris wants May's job, but I'm not sure either of them has a path to what they want.

Plus, they both might actually have a better chance after an EU divorce deal is finalised. Many voters would disapprove of the Tories changing leader before these initial negotiations are complete. After a divorce deal, the transition period might be better timing for Tories wanting rid of May. Meanwhile, many Labourites would see a big risk in triggering an immediate election, even if Corbyn wants one....whereas, in a few months time, with a divorce deal done but maybe a certain amount of economic crap still happening, their chances might be better. Several recent polls have suggested that voters currently favour May over either Corbyn or Boris - maybe wanting stable leadership while the Brexit divorce deal is finalised. But that might not last if things settle down a bit in 2019 (albeit with EU-UK trade deal negotiations ongoing). 

It’s difficult to add much to that Alf you covered it in so much detail. I agree with all of you’re assumptions, although if she took that deal to the house I seriously think it would get through by a good 50-60 votes. When it comes to the crunch and MPs are left between that and no deal, there are too many that will vote to save something. I think if Labour were to stand against it, the backlash for them would be quite significant.

 

[urban.spaceman]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7393078/julia-hartley-brewer-safe-space-ban/

 

LABOUR has banned TalkRadio host Julia Hartley-Brewer from its conference next year.

 

The party issued the edict yesterday because of complaints that she had violated its “safe space” at last week’s conference in Liverpoolby shouting “boo”.

 

Labour accused her of committing a “hate crime” against disabled people who felt vulnerable.

Jesus H Christ the actual state of the Labour party. 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A deal along these lines would certainly present various groups with a dilemma: Labour, Tory Remainers, ERG, DUP.

A while ago, I couldn't see anything getting through Parliament, but I wonder if something like this could?

 

Would enough MPs be prepared to vote it down and risk No Deal, no transition period, potential business relocations & lost jobs, a hard Irish border - or an election or referendum? Maybe not...

 

Plus, there's a bit of something for everyone in this sort of a deal: Transition period so no immediate crisis, no hard border in Ireland, outside SM so no freedom of movement, outside the CU so presumably still able to negotiate own trade deals but "UK-wide alignment with CU" (Labour's policy, in effect!). Of course, the massive issue of May's common rule book for goods, but not services, would be undecided....but an ambiguous fudge of a policy could kick that can down the road, as it doesn't need to be finalised until the end of the transition period....

 

The DUP won't like such concessions, but enough to risk an economic crisis, a hard border and an election that could well eliminate their influence? Plus, the Govt can always "stuff their mouths with gold" as Bevan did with the medical profession to eliminate opposition to the creation of the NHS...

 

As you say, I could imagine such a deal peeling off a few votes from Labour - and also from the less committed ERG people. Whether May would harvest enough votes to get such a deal through parliament, I don't know. But MPs will be aware that there's a lot of Brexit fatigue among an uncomprehending electorate. Many voters just want the issue sorted now - and might take a dim view of anyone perceived to have needlessly sunk a potential deal, particularly if that leads to economic problems, job losses, generalised nastiness, and maybe an election or a second referendum....

 

Of course, the Labour leadership want an election (or referendum, if not) and Boris wants May's job, but I'm not sure either of them has a path to what they want.

Plus, they both might actually have a better chance after an EU divorce deal is finalised. Many voters would disapprove of the Tories changing leader before these initial negotiations are complete. After a divorce deal, the transition period might be better timing for Tories wanting rid of May. Meanwhile, many Labourites would see a big risk in triggering an immediate election, even if Corbyn wants one....whereas, in a few months time, with a divorce deal done but maybe a certain amount of economic crap still happening, their chances might be better. Several recent polls have suggested that voters currently favour May over either Corbyn or Boris - maybe wanting stable leadership while the Brexit divorce deal is finalised. But that might not last if things settle down a bit in 2019 (albeit with EU-UK trade deal negotiations ongoing). 

If Labour were to vote down a last ditch deal, with the result being no deal. They would be in essence be saying, no deal is better than a bad deal

 

Edited 2 October 2018 by Strokes