Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

38 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not an Abba fan, much prefer Snoop Moggy Mogg or FaRage against the Machine.

Yep, coat.

I hope you’re ashamed of yourself...

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

If May comes back with a deal like that, will those different groups hold firm, even if it means political/economic chaos and uncertainty that could result in No Deal, in an election (and hypothetically a Corbyn Govt) or in a referendum (and hypothetically the complete loss of Brexit)?

I have a bad feeling this might be the plan, threaten either of the two sides which her plan would be up against, which would sum up her tenure to be honest.

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg has already stated in numerous speeches that the threat of "no Brexit at all" isn't a threat that carries any weight if the alternative to that is "no Brexit at all" in the form of the deal, which I'm sure he regards the Chequers plan as.

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

I have a bad feeling this might be the plan, threaten either of the two sides which her plan would be up against, which would sum up her tenure to be honest.

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg has already stated in numerous speeches that the threat of "no Brexit at all" isn't a threat that carries any weight if the alternative to that is "no Brexit at all" in the form of the deal, which I'm sure he regards the Chequers plan as.

 

Worth remembering, though, that it is only the divorce deal and not the future EU-UK relationship that is due to be finalised at this stage.

Thus, the EU might be quite happy to do a divorce deal, agree a transition period to Dec 2020 and agree some legally uncommitted fudge on the general outlines of the future relationship.

 

As I understand it, the ERG has already accepted compromises on the divorce payment and EU/UK citizens. A further compromise to resolve the Irish border issue seems within reach - and there might be nothing definitive decided about future relations (the EU is unlikely to accept Chequers on goods, anyway). Are the ERG really going to collapse the whole Brexit process, running the risk of Brexit being cancelled via a referendum or Corbyn getting in via an election....all for the sake of a few extra checks on food and livestock travelling from Stranraer to Larne and a vague statement about future relations? The DUP might, but not the ERG, surely?

 

The Tory Right could also see an opportunity in this - the Gove strategy, if you like: get Brexit over the line in March with a divorce deal done and transition period agreed (which will put business/economic concerns down the agenda for 1-2 years)....then seek to shift the negotiating strategy to a looser relationship and replace May with a leader they prefer...

[Alf Bentley]

I see that Verhofstadt is trolling again, pointing out that Bjorn from Abba sees Brexit as a disaster. 

 

Admittedly, Bjorn's comment dates from 2016.

But he was launching a new Mamma Mia show the day before Theresa's dance/speech: https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/abbas-bjorn-ulvaeus-my-new-show-will-be-an-antidote-to-brexit/

 

"Abba star Bjorn Ulvaeus has said his new show in London will provide an antidote to the “gloom” of Brexit.

With a plot based around a fictional taverna bar on the Greek island of Skopelos, where the exteriors of the first film were shot, Mamma Mia! The Party, turns from dinner into a 70s themed disco over the course of an evening. Speaking ahead of the UK launch of Mamma Mia! The Party, he said: “Yes, there are some tough times ahead of us. “But maybe, you know, during the Great Depression in the US, people were looking for entertainment more than any other period in history. “During bad times people want to escape the gloom, if only for a few hours. I think Mamma Mia! The Party would be that".

 

Is there no end to the influence of Project Fear.... 

 

Someone needs to buy Theresa a show ticket so she can get Bjorn on-message.....

It's all going to be great, Bjorn. Great Britain is Great. Brexit is Brexit - and Brexit is great. We're in a strong negotiating position due to German car exporters. They need us more than we need them. Britain's growth is the best in Europe. We're going to have loads of free trade deals ready to go - and much better ones than the EU can do with places like Canada and Japan. Anyway, we don't need them because we're going to import loads of cheap food from Africa, and we won't need migrant labour on British farms because they'll all go bust. Ignore Project Fear, Bjorn! Austerity is over! There's going to be loads of cash for wages increases, lovely new homes and lovely public services. We're going to have a Festival of Brexit! Let's all have a disco, la-la la-la! 

[Guest MattP]

You would have thought someone who was Swedish would be worrying more about the direction of his own country rather than ours.

 

I wouldn't be criticising others if the far-right was about to form part of a government in my homeland, all while in the EU as well! - and ironically, on a referendum where 52% voted to join ( I'll let you all guess whether they wanted to re-run that one)

Edited 4 October 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, MattP said:

You would have thought someone who was Swedish would be worrying more about the direction of his own country rather than ours.

 

I wouldn't be criticising others if the far-right was about to form part of a government in my homeland, all while in the EU as well! - and ironically, on a referendum where 52% voted to join ( I'll let you all guess whether they wanted to re-run that one)

Both of the Swedish ruling parties have said they will not deal with the SD, but of course we'll have to wait and see if they both hold out on that one - there's an awful lot of noise but no real movement going on out there right now.

 

Of course, it's not brilliant (depending on who you talk to) that such a group managed to get a significant chunk of the seats anyway, but that's PR for you.

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Both of the Swedish ruling parties have said they will not deal with the SD, but of course we'll have to wait and see if they both hold out on that one - there's an awful lot of noise but no real movement going on out there right now.

 

Of course, it's not brilliant (depending on who you talk to) that such a group managed to get a significant chunk of the seats anyway, but that's PR for you.

Another election appears to be the most likely outcome.

 

Second point though - that's not PR for you - they have had PR for decades and there has never been a significant far-right presence so you can't blame that. 

 

The reason there is now large portion of the electorate voting for that is because of the policies of the previous government. 

Edited 4 October 2018 by MattP

[Alf Bentley]

50 minutes ago, MattP said:

You would have thought someone who was Swedish would be worrying more about the direction of his own country rather than ours.

 

I wouldn't be criticising others if the far-right was about to form part of a government in my homeland, all while in the EU as well! - and ironically, on a referendum where 52% voted to join ( I'll let you all guess whether they wanted to re-run that one)

 

You got me sidetracked into Swedish referendums: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Sweden

- In 1922, the Swedes only voted against the prohibition of alcohol by 51%-49%....I bet it was those pisshead migrant Finns who swung the vote. Send them all home!

- In 1957, 83% of Swedes voted to continue to drive on the left, but.....

 

In 1967, the Parliament over-ruled that referendum result and voted for Sweden to drive on the right: http://realscandinavia.com/this-day-in-history-swedish-traffic-switches-sides-september-3-1967/

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Another election appears to be the most likely outcome.

 

Second point though - that's not PR for you - they have had PR for decades and there has never been a significant far-right presence so you can't blame that. 

 

The reason there is now large portion of the electorate voting for that is because of the policies of the previous government. 

Yeah, pardon me, clearly the votes were part of a right-wing backlash that's happening in a lot of places recently but I meant it's the mechanics of PR that allowed such sentiment to have such a profound effect in Sweden.

 

If both of the parties truly do believe working with the SD is unconscionable then I'd agree that a new election is likely the only way out.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, pardon me, clearly the votes were part of a right-wing backlash that's happening in a lot of places recently but I meant it's the mechanics of PR that allowed such sentiment to have such a profound effect in Sweden.

 

If both of the parties truly do believe working with the SD is unconscionable then I'd agree that a new election is likely the only way out.

But had those policies not been implemented the mechanics of PR wouldn't matter.

 

Problem with another election - might bring back a similar result.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

But had those policies not been implemented the mechanics of PR wouldn't matter.

 

Problem with another election - might bring back a similar result.

Absolutely, I'm just making the point that the system has a part to play in all this too.

 

Goodness only knows what the result of a second election might be, but it could well be really similar, yes.

[urban.spaceman]

Labour continuing their descent into unelectable insanity.

 

 

[lifted*fox]

I don't get the ****ing problem with the safe space thing tbh. Some people with disabilities or anxiety or whatever need somewhere quiet and unimposing to go during busy / crowded events. They don't expect to go in there to be greeted by that awful **** giving it 'boo'. It's disrespectful and just generally not needed. 

 

Anyone with half a brain would walk past the safe space sign, know it isn't for them carry on about their day like a normal human being. Unfortunately that Julia whatever her name is another one of these antagonist twats who has to stick her nose into every one else business. She thinks she's being clever / funny when she's actually just stirring shit. 

 

But oh yeah lefty snowflakes bla bla bla. There's plenty of lefty shit to jump on but this isn't it. 

[Innovindil]

35 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I don't get the ****ing problem with the safe space thing tbh. Some people with disabilities or anxiety or whatever need somewhere quiet and unimposing to go during busy / crowded events. They don't expect to go in there to be greeted by that awful **** giving it 'boo'. It's disrespectful and just generally not needed. 

 

Anyone with half a brain would walk past the safe space sign, know it isn't for them carry on about their day like a normal human being. Unfortunately that Julia whatever her name is another one of these antagonist twats who has to stick her nose into every one else business. She thinks she's being clever / funny when she's actually just stirring shit. 

 

But oh yeah lefty snowflakes bla bla bla. There's plenty of lefty shit to jump on but this isn't it. 

Do you need a safe space? 

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

I don't get the ****ing problem with the safe space thing tbh. Some people with disabilities or anxiety or whatever need somewhere quiet and unimposing to go during busy / crowded events. They don't expect to go in there to be greeted by that awful **** giving it 'boo'. It's disrespectful and just generally not needed. 

 

Anyone with half a brain would walk past the safe space sign, know it isn't for them carry on about their day like a normal human being. Unfortunately that Julia whatever her name is another one of these antagonist twats who has to stick her nose into every one else business. She thinks she's being clever / funny when she's actually just stirring shit. 

 

But oh yeah lefty snowflakes bla bla bla. There's plenty of lefty shit to jump on but this isn't it. 

I think the main problem is the location, most of these pop up at political conferences or universities - these are places where you are not only encouraged, but expected to engage in critical thought that at times can, will and should be uncomfortable. If one is so upset by hearing a different opinion then they shouldn't really be in these places in the first place.

 

I'm delighted depression alongside other mental health issues now have no stigma and people get help but I do often wonder how some of humanity has got to the point where applause makes them upset, I'm even more curious as to why this seems to be exclusive to wealthy western nations - it's concerning as these people are going to have little chance of surviving in the World.

 

If I ever come across a safe space they'll be begging for Julia Hartley Brewer shouting "boo" instead of having to walk in on me with a Daily Mail and a Donald Trump mask.

[breadandcheese]

 

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think the main problem is the location, most of these pop up at political conferences or universities - these are places where you are not only encouraged, but expected to engage in critical thought that at times can, will and should be uncomfortable. If one is so upset by hearing a different opinion then they shouldn't really be in these places in the first place.

 

I'm delighted depression alongside other mental health issues now have no stigma and people get help but I do often wonder how some of humanity has got to the point where applause makes them upset, I'm even more curious as to why this seems to be exclusive to wealthy western nations - it's concerning as these people are going to have little chance of surviving in the World.

 

If I ever come across a safe space they'll be begging for Julia Hartley Brewer shouting "boo" instead of having to walk in on me with a Daily Mail and a Donald Trump mask.

I think the issue is one of presentation.  If I hear the words "safe space", I think of student unions banning speakers who's views they don't like.  I don't instantly think of people on the autism spectrum suffering a sensory overload from loud environments and genuinely needing a quiet space to stop their discomfort.  So this needs to change first and foremost, the presentation of the area into one of a quiet space, rather than safe space with the negative snowflake connotations it brings.  I think Julia Hartley Brewer made this point assuming that it was an area to hide from hearing a different opinion as the signs on the door did not make any mention of mental health.  I'm sure she even said that had she have known, she would never have shouted "boo".

 

I will add that I think safe spaces or quiet spaces are a very good idea.  Knowing a person with an autistic child, I've seen their child's reaction to a loud environment, so a place to get a break and get some quiet time is good.

 

 

[lifted*fox]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Do you need a safe space? 

 

you joke but tbh mate the way I feel at the minute, probably yeah.

 

all I'm saying is why can't people mind their own ****ing business. 

 

if you look at a room with a sign on the door saying 'safe space' and immediately don't register it as something that is of use to you - walk the **** on by and ignore it.

 

why is everyone a ****ing comedian or have to comment on everything these days? just jog on by and let the disabled, autistic, depressed, whatever the **** else they might be suffering from enjoy their quiet room. 

 

fml people are cvnts. 

[davieG]

4 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

you joke but tbh mate the way I feel at the minute, probably yeah.

 

all I'm saying is why can't people mind their own ****ing business. 

 

if you look at a room with a sign on the door saying 'safe space' and immediately don't register it as something that is of use to you - walk the **** on by and ignore it.

 

why is everyone a ****ing comedian or have to comment on everything these days? just jog on by and let the disabled, autistic, depressed, whatever the **** else they might be suffering from enjoy their quiet room. 

 

fml people are cvnts. 

Do you really need to use this 'colourful' language all the while to make your point there are or could be youngish members on here even if they aren't I think it diminishes the point you're intent on making?

[lifted*fox]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I think the main problem is the location, most of these pop up at political conferences or universities - these are places where you are not only encouraged, but expected to engage in critical thought that at times can, will and should be uncomfortable. If one is so upset by hearing a different opinion then they shouldn't really be in these places in the first place.

 

I don't think it's about hearing different opinions Matt - it's just about having somewhere to go for some quiet; for a quick moment of respite from an otherwise intense atmosphere. 

 

i'm sure the people with the issues attending are more than capable of sitting and hearing something they don't like - they might just want a break from it all at some point. 

 

and why not? why shouldn't they? it's just a small meeting room with a sign on the door. I just can't understand how it's even an issue.

[lifted*fox]

15 minutes ago, davieG said:

Do you really need to use this 'colourful' language all the while to make your point there are or could be youngish members on here even if they aren't I think it diminishes the point you're intent on making?

 

it's how I've always typed on here. it's how I choose to express myself and all 3908 of my previous posts have been exactly the same.

 

edit: not being rude btw - it's just the way it is 

 

edit 2: also, I very much doubt anyone under the age of 16 would even know what a forum is.

 

edit 3: nobody cares about the points I make, so I doubt my colourful language diminishes it any further. 

Edited 4 October 2018 by lifted*fox

[Charl91]

3 hours ago, davieG said:

Do you really need to use this 'colourful' language all the while to make your point there are or could be youngish members on here even if they aren't I think it diminishes the point you're intent on making?

 

Do you need a safe space? 

[Innovindil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45756738

 

All the bleating over this and in the end they aren't even leaving. 

[Guest MattP]

Wtf 

[bovril]

 I actually know someone who's going on that and she is slightly unhinged. 

[ithuriel]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Wtf 

Hope they clean up after themselves, er I mean their pooches.