The Poppy Police : do they dishonour war dead

[Vacamion]

 

A lot of our culture comes from over the Atlantic, and the fetishisation of all things military is part of that.

 

When I was a lad, the forces were for slightly thick sports jock types who perhaps couldn’t get work elsewhere.  Sorry if that offends anyone, but it’s how it was.  

 

Remembrance started in November (not, as currently seems to be the case, about mid September) and more often than not, the geezer selling the poppies had actually fought in the war.  

 

It was the done thing to stand and remember in silent contemplation on the 11th or the Sunday nearest.

 

Nowadays, it’s like a competition for people and institutions to be more poppied up than others. 

 

Whilst I’ll buy a poppy and wear it for work, and I’ll remember on Remembrance Sunday, it feels more and more like the poppy fanatics are on a different planet. 

 

Oh, and then I saw this online today. Solemn remembrance from Tesco, there. Sigh...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Webbo]

We buy poppies to raise money for The British Legion who use the money to help old soldiers. It's not about glorifying war at all. I agree it's over done now and for a lot of people it's just another form of virtue signalling but to me the anti poppy brigade are getting a bit that way too.

[Great Boos Up]

A lot of emails now have the poppy footers and loads of people are wearing them, this year in badge form. I'm not sure if and when you are supposed to start and end.

Luckily I have a reminder on the 5th November where we celebrate burning catholics?

[rico]

i got one of these from the club shop on Sunday

[SpacedX]

10 hours ago, Great Boos Up said:

 

Luckily I have a reminder on the 5th November where we celebrate burning catholics?

Not directly. When news of the failed plot emerged bonfires and beacons were lit around London and in 1606 James I actually passed an Act of Parliament decreeing that the 5th November should become a day of observance. The significance of the bonfires was to celebrate deliverance from demonic papists which was believed to be by divine intervention and they had always been a mark of commemoration. The first fireworks display which was in London involved rudimentary firecrackers and rockets representing popish spirits from hell. You are right in the sense that this evolved into burning effigies of the Pope primarily during the Jacobean period but by the 18th Century, that had been popularly replaced by a Guy. although most historians contend that the bonfire celebrations owe to the survival of the King, there is no doubt that they have infringed on catholic sensitivities - particularly in Northern Ireland where the symbolism can be far more acute. 

 

The actual plotters that weren't shot at Holbeach were hung drawn and quartered. I always maintained that if properly done, the story of the Gunpowder Plot would have made a fascinating screenplay/movie. It has subterfuge, betrayal, romance, mystery/intrigue, action, and tragedy. The BBC commissioned a script by Ronan Bennett and is currently screening 'Gunpowder' and it's frankly embarrassing - absolute joke. Much of it is fantasy and fiction which is a great shame because there is no reason not to remain faithful to the actual events - which are more engrossing than the ludicrous scenes that he has devised. Incidentally, Bennett was a former researcher for Corbyn and is staunchly anti home rule. 

[SpacedX]

11 hours ago, Webbo said:

We buy poppies to raise money for The British Legion who use the money to help old soldiers. It's not about glorifying war at all. I agree it's over done now and for a lot of people it's just another form of virtue signalling but to me the anti poppy brigade are getting a bit that way too.

 

I wear a poppy because I want to, not because I am conditioned to do so. Also, I choose to wear one from mid October because in an era in which we take so much for granted increasingly informed by social media revisionism I place great value of remembrance. It is my choice to do so and I don't think that the ubiquity of poppies or the decision to wear them in October in any way detracts from Armistice Day or in anyway desensitises observance or devalues the cause. 

 

Wearing a poppy is not about blind faith or following without understanding; it means that we memorialise those people who fought and died so that we were conferred the freedoms and liberty that we experience today. It is important to understand the prominent place that the poppy has in British culture so that the choice of whether or not to wear it is informed.  It is up to the individual to engage with the wearing of poppies and participating in the silences, but most crucially to me - maintain this connection to our history, however bloody it may be, that it remains respectful, tasteful, tangible and poignant.

Edited 1 November 2017 by Line-X

[Finnegan]

11 hours ago, Webbo said:

We buy poppies to raise money for The British Legion who use the money to help old soldiers. It's not about glorifying war at all. I agree it's over done now and for a lot of people it's just another form of virtue signalling but to me the anti poppy brigade are getting a bit that way too.

 

I genuinely don't know anyone that's anti-poppy tbh. 

 

I'm about as close to it as anyone I know and even I keep pretty much quiet and respectful about my opinions outside this thread. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

On 31/10/2017 at 13:31, The Doctor said:

How is a white poppy rude or disrespectful? The point of them is supposed to be honour those from WWI and WWII without going on the celebrating modern conflicts. Shouldn't need to be the case, and I'm not going to add to what Finnegans already said because he's nailed it, but I fail to see how wearing a different coloured poppy that symbolises what the poppy and armistice day was supposed to represent before it got hijacked to what it is today is in any way rude or disrespectful, just somewhat pointless.

Apologies, I forgot to reply to this.

 

I actually think not only is the white poppy a symbol of virtue signalling but also a pretty strong insult that reduces the sacrifice of millions to something in vain. It wasn't. Europe would've been a much uglier and barbaric place had it not been for the defeat of Prussian militarism and subsequently National Socialism.

 

If the Second World War taught us anything about conflict, it's that pacifism can do nothing to save innocents from the intentions of evil men. War is a tragedy, I doubt anyone in the World would disagree with that, but it's often a necessary one. You can't resist industrial death machines with kind words, white poppies and protests.

[RonnieTodger]

On 11/1/2017 at 08:58, Finnegan said:

 

I genuinely don't know anyone that's anti-poppy tbh. 

 

I'm about as close to it as anyone I know and even I keep pretty much quiet and respectful about my opinions outside this thread. 

 

 

One of my mates is a big Celtic fan and pretty much follows all the things you'd expect one to. He would wear an Easter lily and never a poppy, but he's been to Leicester matches before and always observed the minute's silence.

 

He'll never preach about it, but has a completely different view to the majority and I think that's the right way to go about it.  

Edited 2 November 2017 by RonnieTodger

[The Doctor]

45 minutes ago, MattP said:

Apologies, I forgot to reply to this.

 

I actually think not only is the white poppy a symbol of virtue signalling but also a pretty strong insult that reduces the sacrifice of millions to something in vain. It wasn't. Europe would've been a much uglier and barbaric place had it not been for the defeat of Prussian militarism and subsequently National Socialism.

 

If the Second World War taught us anything about conflict, it's that pacifism can do nothing to save innocents from the intentions of evil men. War is a tragedy, I doubt anyone in the World would disagree with that, but it's often a necessary one. You can't resist industrial death machines with kind words, white poppies and protests.

The entire wearing a poppy deal is virtue signalling, be it red or white, nor does wearing a white one reduce the world wars to sacrifices in vain: it passes no judgement on the legitimacy of WWI or WWII. As I said it's pointless, the red one already symbolises what the white one is meant to to all but the most fervent nationalists (read: Britain First and their ilk), but it's not about dismissing the sacrifices world war vets made.

[Fox92]

On 11/1/2017 at 07:55, rico said:

i got one of these from the club shop on Sunday

I went in to look for them but couldn't find them. I could only see the other little £3 badges near the retro bit.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

I’ve had the same one for years.

 

Are you supposed to buy a new one every year?

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Apologies, I forgot to reply to this.

 

I actually think not only is the white poppy a symbol of virtue signalling but also a pretty strong insult that reduces the sacrifice of millions to something in vain. It wasn't. Europe would've been a much uglier and barbaric place had it not been for the defeat of Prussian militarism and subsequently National Socialism.

 

If the Second World War taught us anything about conflict, it's that pacifism can do nothing to save innocents from the intentions of evil men. War is a tragedy, I doubt anyone in the World would disagree with that, but it's often a necessary one. You can't resist industrial death machines with kind words, white poppies and protests.

I think the Doc was pretty clear on what is meant by the white poppy regarding WWI and II, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's disrespectful to them and "virtue signalling" from it.

 

I'm also pretty sure that those wars were fought with the idea that they would never have to happen again....so if your second paragraph is true, then I sincerely hope it isn't true for all time, because if it is then the sacrifices of those millions of people were in vain.

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Apologies, I forgot to reply to this.

 

I actually think not only is the white poppy a symbol of virtue signalling but also a pretty strong insult that reduces the sacrifice of millions to something in vain. It wasn't. Europe would've been a much uglier and barbaric place had it not been for the defeat of Prussian militarism and subsequently National Socialism.

 

If the Second World War taught us anything about conflict, it's that pacifism can do nothing to save innocents from the intentions of evil men. War is a tragedy, I doubt anyone in the World would disagree with that, but it's often a necessary one. You can't resist industrial death machines with kind words, white poppies and protests.

 

Don't think I can agree with you on WW1. It's a stretch to claim that soldiers in WW2 died in vain, it's hard to disagree that Hitler and his regime had to go (although funny that we're all okay with being on Stalin's side and his rise in the aftermath.) 

 

But WW1 was pretty ****ing pointless, it was arguably the last of the great imperial, chest thumping, war-for-the-sakes-of-it, rich elite sending our peasants off to die for no real gain wars. 

 

Literally just a bunch of wealthy monarchs comparing dick sizes. They'd been empire building and competing for about five or six hundred years and it finally all came to blows when they wanted to use their machine guns on each other. 

 

It was utterly pointless. Prussian militarism needed to be stopped? We'd conquered half the sodding planet!! The French were hoarding most of Africa and big chunks of Asia! We sided with the Japanese, or they sided with us, because they wanted to steal Korea, Manchuria and half the Pacific!

 

It was just Risk with real casualties. Totally effing pointless. 

 

We should all absolutely, definitely, 100% respect and mourn the war dead. We should absolutely definitely take the time out to think of their loss and pray it never happens again. 

 

But it wasn't a sacrifice, it was just loss and saying they died in vain isn't dishonouring their memory it's honouring it. It's doing it the service of honesty and giving them justice. 

 

The real travesty, the real disrespect is buying in to the lie that they DID die for a cause, that they DID die for a reason. That's letting the men who took us all to war off when they should all be burning in their own special layer of hell. 

 

[rico]

1 hour ago, Fox92 said:

I went in to look for them but couldn't find them. I could only see the other little £3 badges near the retro bit.

There wasnt many left,but if you go on club website you can get them

[purpleronnie]

 

Wearing a poppy should be a solemn act of remembrance, this sort of thing does nothing but trivialize it.

[Bellend Sebastian]

3 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

 

Wearing a poppy should be a solemn act of remembrance, this sort of thing does nothing but trivialize it.

He's got a net over his face because he's worried about bees

[Finnegan]

5 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

He's got a net over his face because he's worried about bees

 

I was about to post that. Does he know bees don't go for plastic flowers.

[Webbo]

He's obviously got Hayfever.

[lifted*fox]

I dunno man, the whole poppy thing is bullshit imo. 

 

Fair enough if the proceeds go to helping vets or whatever - but it's insignificant otherwise.

 

If you want to remember, if you want to pay respect, if you want to teach your kids; there are plenty of museums, war-graves, memorial sites, etc. across Britain and Europe that can all be visited - any time of year.

 

I've been to Auschwitz twice - once as a 16 year old and again at 22 with my girlfriend (now wife) because I thought it was important that she went there too.

 

When you're standing on the tracks next to the gas chambers at Birkenau as it gets dark with nothing but eerie silence left to contemplate the truly awful things humans can do... 

 

Those visits shaped my outlook on racism, acceptance and the importance of continually learning from history so such terrible events don't repeat themselves. 

 

Pin a poppy to yourself for one day, fine - think of those you lost, fine. There isn't any need to gun people who choose not to (such as myself) because we all go about remembering / learning in different ways. 

 

Anyone who hasn't been to Auschwitz - you really should go. Stay in Krakow, it's a beautiful city and then take the bus excursion from there.

 

It's one of the most humbling, heart-wrenching yet important trips I've ever made, and likely ever will.

 

Anyone struggling to accept people because of their religion, or their race, or their sexual preference - it'll quite frankly kick that bullshit straight up out of you. 

Edited 3 November 2017 by lifted*fox

[SpacedX]

10 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I dunno man, the whole poppy thing is bullshit imo. 

Surely that comes down to individual significance as much as symbolic representation?

 

12 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

 

Fair enough if the proceeds go to helping vets or whatever.

 

All net Poppy Appeal income raised goes into the Royal British Legion Benevolent Fund, and is made available to beneficiaries according to need, regardless of where they live, and also includes beneficiaries who qualify overseas. Many of these are indeed combat veterans.

 

15 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

but it's insignificant otherwise.

The significance is the value that I and many others attach to it. The significance of the poppy as a lasting memorial symbol to the fallen was first realised by the Canadian surgeon John McCrae in his poem In Flanders Fields. The poppy came to represent the untold sacrifice made by his comrades and quickly became a lasting memorial to those who died in World War One. Inspired by McCrae's poem, an American War Secretary, bought poppies to sell to her friends to raise money for Servicemen in need after the First World War. It was subsequently adopted by The Royal British Legion in as a symbol for the Poppy Appeal in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces. The symbol of the poppy today represents Remembrance of the past and hope for the future.

 

18 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

If you want to remember, if you want to pay respect, if you want to teach your kids; there are plenty of museums, war-graves, memorial sites, etc. across Britain and Europe that can all be visited - any time of year.

Absolutely - and you'll find that many people that support the poppy appeal do precisely that. But we can also formally pay our respect, once a year, together as a nation to commemorate the eleventh hour of the eleventh month - the day the guns fell silent on the Great War as a reminder of all those that have sacrificed their lives on the battleground.

 

22 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Pin a poppy to yourself for one day, fine - think of those you lost, fine.

Thank you I will - only not for one day -  for a fortnight as I always do.

 

23 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

There isn't any need to gun people who choose not to (such as myself) because we all go about remembering / learning in different ways. 

 

I won't and I don't. I am entirely non-judgemental and respect the freedom and choice of others to either observe or not observe the practice. However, that is not to say that I don't encourage contemplation, humility and gratitude in connection with Armistice Day.

27 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Anyone who hasn't been to Auschwitz - you really should go. Stay in Krakow, it's a beautiful city and then take the bus excursion from there.

 

It's one of the most humbling, heart-wrenching yet important trips I've ever made, and likely ever will.

 

 

Agree entirely.

 

28 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Anyone struggling to accept people because of their religion, or their race, or their sexual preference - it'll quite frankly kick that bullshit straight up out of you. 

Surely that's a given - what's your point?

 

Perhaps you should be similarly non-judgemental and tolerant in respect of the poppy appeal poppy instead of brazenly and coarsely branding it bullshit? because after all...

 

32 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

we all go about remembering / learning in different ways. 

 

 

 

[lifted*fox]

wow, fair response but maybe I wasn't clear - I wasn't slamming the poppy itself, more the kerfuffle surrounding whether it's OK to wear it or not. 

 

some people make out that the poppy is the be all and end all in showing respect for the war-dead. 

 

I was merely pointing out that there are other ways to learn, remember and teach lessons than pinning a poppy to yourself once a year.

 

sorry if it didn't come across that way.

 

my point about Auschwitz being an eye-opener for the ignorant amongst us is exactly that. looking through the glass at thousands of shoes / glasses / locks of hair that were removed / stolen from the Jews because of their religion is enough to make anyone wake up and question their racist / xenophobic beliefs. 

 

I don't think many people could walk away from that experience and not have a much broader respect for humans, no matter colour / race / religion.

 

If it were up to me visits to somewhere like that would be compulsory at age 16+. People need to learn at a young age that ignorance and prejudice are not good for this world. 

 

Edited 3 November 2017 by lifted*fox

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, lifted*fox said:

wow, fair response but maybe I wasn't clear - I wasn't slamming the poppy itself, more the kerfuffle surrounding whether it's OK to wear it or not. 

 

some people make out that the poppy is the be all and end all in showing respect for the war-dead. 

 

Which in fairness to you is the theme of this thread. 

 

2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I was merely pointing out that there are other ways to learn, remember and teach lessons than pinning a poppy to yourself once a year.

 

 

Agree entirely.

 

3 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

sorry if it didn't come across that way.

 

No need for apologies, as much my misinterpretation.

 

Krakow? absolutely right - beautiful city.

[lifted*fox]

Just now, Line-X said:

No need for apologies, as much my misinterpretation.

 

Krakow? absolutely right - beautiful city.

 

 

I'd love to go back - got a few more places I need to do first though. 

 

Did you visit Krakow for the same reason? I went to Auschwitz in Sixth Form with a mate and our head of Sixth. It was organised by the Holocaust Memorial people in London. A select group of people got to visit to learn and then report back / present to their schools about their findings on Holocaust day. I guess that's where my real interest grew from. I got to meet Kitty Hart-Moxon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Hart-Moxon) who survived Birkenau. It was amazing but I struggled for weeks afterwards with the heaviness of it all. Like I said though, it taught me some very valuable life lessons. It was just as hard the second time when I went back on my own with my partner. I thought it wouldn't hit me so hard but it really did, again. 

 

I visited the salt mines in Krakow as well, that was awesome too. 

 

Did a fair bit of Vodka drinking with some nice polish girls in some underground bar. Very friendly place! 

[SpacedX]

Just now, lifted*fox said:

 

 

I'd love to go back - got a few more places I need to do first though. 

 

Did you visit Krakow for the same reason? I went to Auschwitz in Sixth Form with a mate and our head of Sixth. It was organised by the Holocaust Memorial people in London. A select group of people got to visit to learn and then report back / present to their schools about their findings on Holocaust day. I guess that's where my real interest grew from. I got to meet Kitty Hart-Moxon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Hart-Moxon) who survived Birkenau. It was amazing but I struggled for weeks afterwards with the heaviness of it all. Like I said though, it taught me some very valuable life lessons. It was just as hard the second time when I went back on my own with my partner. I thought it wouldn't hit me so hard but it really did, again. 

 

I visited the salt mines in Krakow as well, that was awesome too. 

 

Did a fair bit of Vodka drinking with some nice polish girls in some underground bar. Very friendly place! 

I was touring Europe and wanted to see Auschwitz as much as Krakow. You are absolutely right about the eeriness, as though a pall of death still hangs over the place. I had a friend that was working in Silesea (which is now one of the many regions in Europe pushing for independence).