One step forward two steps backs

[sacreblueits442]

59 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Yup. When we win it's players taking the credit for individual performances, when we lose it's Puel taking the blame for individual mistakes. 

 

Wes cost us the points Saturday not Puel. 

....yes, Wes's action cost us the points but Puel's inaction was a contributory factor.!!!

There was a call to be made and most people felt it was an inevitability yet no action was taken. No one expects a manager to withdraw a player on a yellow card unless that player was being out done and could not afford that player additional protection. If a referee gives a player a final warning when he is on a yellow, the prudent move would be to remove the player from the situation. He had Evans available to slot in, this is not hindsight, no one is absolving Wes in this instance, there was a call to be made.It didn't happen!!!!

[HankMarvin]

On 07/10/2018 at 13:31, UniFox21 said:

It's the 2nd time we've lost at home, the first against a very good Liverpool team. How is it throwing points away?

 

Why should Puel sub our captain of 270+ appearances off after a booking, Wes has enough experience to know to avoid fouling. 

Some of you really do blame Puel for players mistakes 

Why

 

cos the bloke is declining year after year, he can barely run and has already been sent off this season.

im no football manager but after the first yellow I though his gonna get a red, that was before he wrestled off the pitch whilst on the yellow.

 

its not as though subbing on Evans would have been a huge downgrade or the fact that we needed to utilise 3 Subs

as 2 were subbed on with 10 to play

[turtmcfly]

1 hour ago, Dan LCFC said:

While I agree it was Morgan's fault the other day, Puel does keep picking him despite it being so obvious to everybody that he's costing us points and has been for months. I feel like we'll be having this debate again in November.

Who should he pick instead?

[RumbleFox]

I genuinely cannot believe people are mad at Puel for not subbing off our captain who was on a yellow.  Yes in hindsight it would have been the right thing to do but it would have been a huge call, and one that I cannot imagine many people making.  As other people have said, I imagine Puel trusted Morgan to behave in a professional manner.  The fact that he didn't cannot really be something to blame Puel for.  I think what Puel does need to now do though is respond and make the decision to phase Wes out of the team (as much as I love the big guy).  X

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, HankMarvin said:

im no football manager but after the first yellow I though his gonna get a red, that was before he wrestled off the pitch whilst on the yellow.

But I'd imagine we all think the same about most players when they get an early booking. Doesn't matter if it's Wilf, Maguire, Chilwell... any early booking and I'm thinking "they'll get a red", you can't go subbing players just because they get a yellow. Morgan's two reds have been two of the softest reds you are ever likely to see, I have some sympathy. But he also needs to take some blame as when on a yellow just don't put a foot in, just shield the player.

[KingsX]

On 06/10/2018 at 19:53, northernfox321 said:

Have we not reached point with that clown puel,we are seeing no improvement just same defensive issues the defence is soft as butter,no quality or depth up front no plan B just plays same old pointless passing around in non dangerous areas giving teams a goal start,not picking new players that are bought in,seem to win couple of games that papers over the cracks,then back same dross

I'm not expecting them to win the league but at least be competitive i mean Bournemouth are 5th st present surly there squad no better than ours please please please let's get rid of this clown,I'm sure i will take some pelters on this

 

35 minutes ago, gerrytaggart said:

This is the type of level headed well reasoned post I come here to read.

 

Mostly I come here for the punctuation.

[UniFox21]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

But I'd imagine we all think the same about most players when they get an early booking. Doesn't matter if it's Wilf, Maguire, Chilwell... any early booking and I'm thinking "they'll get a red", you can't go subbing players just because they get a yellow. Morgan's two reds have been two of the softest reds you are ever likely to see, I have some sympathy. But he also needs to take some blame as when on a yellow just don't put a foot in, just shield the player.

The mercury did an interview with him about that, he said the same thing. Both cases they're maybe even not yellows. People will say for persistent fouling, but refs aren't consistent with any of what they deem to be a foul or a booking. 

 

It must be infuriating going in for a tackle you've seen other players do and receive no punishment, to do it yourself and be booked

 

[David Hankey]

On 07/10/2018 at 14:22, fuchsntf said:

So you have your opinion and are determined to carry on

 Pecking at Puel...I

Some don't see it that way,because we also in our honest opinions,believe a manager has to trust his experience players...and there was no poor

Descision....Again ..as others have mentioned your bombastic opinion  would have football  needing,3-4 subs more per game!!!!I

 

Just opinions like........

Agree, we're all entitled to our point of view and Morgan getting sent off again when it was so needless is barmy. As there never, ever been a player subbed because he was already on one yellow?

[AKCJ]

It's not one step forward and two steps back. 

 

The problem is we’ve had a meteoric rise in terms of our ‘stature’ in English football over the last decade. We’re now at a spot where progressing to the next level is a massive, massive step.

 

Right now we’re a top 10 PL side. If you’d have told me that we’d be whinging about that 10 years ago when we were in League 1 (10 years ago this weekend Lloyd Dyer scored a last minute winner away at Huddersfield) I wouldn’t have believed you.

 

During those dark days under Levein, Kelly, Worthington, Allen, Megson and Holloway all we desperately wanted was to be back in the Premier League. Why is that not enough now?

 

We just need to keep it into perspective and realise that, despite the last freaky 10 years… some things take time! Lets keep finishing in the top 10-12 in the PL, keep developing these young players (who will be hit and miss), build these training facilities and put another tier on the East Stand and in 4/5 years’ time we’ll be seen as a very big club with some major pulling power and players will come to us as a club that’s got a proper chance of winning things regularly.

 

As much as some of the weirdos on here would hate to admit it, we need to follow Spurs’ example.
 

[HankMarvin]

44 minutes ago, Babylon said:

But I'd imagine we all think the same about most players when they get an early booking. Doesn't matter if it's Wilf, Maguire, Chilwell... any early booking and I'm thinking "they'll get a red", you can't go subbing players just because they get a yellow. Morgan's two reds have been two of the softest reds you are ever likely to see, I have some sympathy. But he also needs to take some blame as when on a yellow just don't put a foot in, just shield the player.

Blue tinted specs 

 

was on a yellow

 

made another foul 

 

then got away with rugby tackle off the pitch on him

 

then went through back of him all within a hour 

 

I disagree it was a soft red 

might have got a warning if he hadn’t already committed second foul and moments before pulled him down off the field 

 

 

Edited 8 October 2018 by HankMarvin

[Dan]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

What games has he cost us points this season exactly, other than arguably Saturday?

Poor against Liverpool, poor at Bournemouth (admittedly I thought others were worse), it was also Morgan in no man's land that presented Joselu with a very good chance at Newcastle which he blew. This follows last season, April in particular where he was terrible.

 

He isn't the only one at fault but is for me, the most replaceable of our team. While Morgan getting stick absolves Maguire (an absolute shambles at Bournemouth for example) of the blame too often, I do find the continued inclusion of him baffling. He is not particularly good on the ball, nor he is quick - two things which are needed to play in this system we want at centre half. Maguire I can forgive a bit more because he is good on the ball although where is the compensation for his lack of pace?

 

Morgan I think would be OK playing for a side like Burnley or Cardiff who ask very little of their centre halves other than to sit back and defend. We play a system that demands a bit more now and he isn't up to it. Either compensate for that by adapting the system, or drop Morgan.

 

I don't put Morgan struggling entirely on him. He's out of his comfort zone now.

 

 

2 hours ago, turtmcfly said:

Who should he pick instead?

I'd give Evans a bit more time to develop an understanding with Maguire, before eventually we look at a way to get Soyuncu in if he's as good as we're lead to believe he is.

 

I don't expect us to miraculously become solid with Evans in the team but I'm prepared to roll the dice because we've been a shambles at the back all season, again.

[Bunyip]

On 07/10/2018 at 13:28, cropstonfox said:

Bournemouth have better players than us and a better manager .We have  the Emperors new clothes syndrome.He has had long enough.

They do on both counts. And the big question is given our financial muscle why is that? truth is we are still only just treading water. Appalling wastes of money on third-rate players since we won the league and appointing a manager who got the sack from his last two jobs should give a big hint as too why.

[Babylon]

32 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

Poor against Liverpool, poor at Bournemouth (admittedly I thought others were worse), it was also Morgan in no man's land that presented Joselu with a very good chance at Newcastle which he blew. This follows last season, April in particular where he was terrible.

 

He isn't the only one at fault but is for me, the most replaceable of our team. While Morgan getting stick absolves Maguire (an absolute shambles at Bournemouth for example) of the blame too often, I do find the continued inclusion of him baffling. He is not particularly good on the ball, nor he is quick - two things which are needed to play in this system we want at centre half. Maguire I can forgive a bit more because he is good on the ball although where is the compensation for his lack of pace?

 

Morgan I think would be OK playing for a side like Burnley or Cardiff who ask very little of their centre halves other than to sit back and defend. We play a system that demands a bit more now and he isn't up to it. Either compensate for that by adapting the system, or drop Morgan.

 

I don't put Morgan struggling entirely on him. He's out of his comfort zone now.

 

 

I'd give Evans a bit more time to develop an understanding with Maguire, before eventually we look at a way to get Soyuncu in if he's as good as we're lead to believe he is.

 

I don't expect us to miraculously become solid with Evans in the team but I'm prepared to roll the dice because we've been a shambles at the back all season, again.

In other words nobody can actually point to him being at fault of us dropping points this season other than Sat.

[Dan]

30 minutes ago, Babylon said:

In other words nobody can actually point to him being at fault of us dropping points this season other than Sat.

Replace Morgan with a more capable on the ball, quicker defender and you're likely to eradicate problems that are caused by those two things in the first place.

 

I admit Evans lacks the pace as well but he's a bit better on the ball at least.

[FLAN]

3 hours ago, RumbleFox said:

I genuinely cannot believe people are mad at Puel for not subbing off our captain who was on a yellow.  Yes in hindsight it would have been the right thing to do but it would have been a huge call, and one that I cannot imagine many people making.  As other people have said, I imagine Puel trusted Morgan to behave in a professional manner.  The fact that he didn't cannot really be something to blame Puel for.  I think what Puel does need to now do though is respond and make the decision to phase Wes out of the team (as much as I love the big guy).  X

He saw Morgan wasn’t behaving responsibly. So that’s the point he needed to act as Richarlison got back up off the sidelines 

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, F1_AN said:

He saw Morgan wasn’t behaving responsibly. So that’s the point he needed to act as Richarlison got back up off the sidelines 

I do not disagree it would have been the right thing to do I just think pulling off your captain is a big call.  If he learns from it I have no issue with the fact he maybe got it wrong.

[UniFox21]

6 minutes ago, F1_AN said:

He saw Morgan wasn’t behaving responsibly. So that’s the point he needed to act as Richarlison got back up off the sidelines 

You mean Richarlison play acting from normal tackles, in tandem with the Everton dugout screaming for bookings.

[Ian Nacho]

Under previous managers, we've been going one step forward two steps back but under Puel we're going one step forward one step back. Our owners have a track record of not biting the bullet until things get dire near the relegation zone.

[sacreblueits442]

6 hours ago, David Hankey said:

Agree, we're all entitled to our point of view and Morgan getting sent off again when it was so needless is barmy. As there never, ever been a player subbed because he was already on one yellow?

.....numerous players have been pulled due to being on a yellow and looking in danger of being sent off. The big managers have pulled players just take a look at Clough and Ferguson. 

  It is common sense to pull a player when they have got themselves in a situation where they are being run by the game and they have become entrenched in playing the player and not running the game.

  There is an irrational argument being put forward as reasoning and it does not hold water.

[UPinCarolina]

6 hours ago, AKCJ said:

It's not one step forward and two steps back. 

 

The problem is we’ve had a meteoric rise in terms of our ‘stature’ in English football over the last decade. We’re now at a spot where progressing to the next level is a massive, massive step.

 

Right now we’re a top 10 PL side. If you’d have told me that we’d be whinging about that 10 years ago when we were in League 1 (10 years ago this weekend Lloyd Dyer scored a last minute winner away at Huddersfield) I wouldn’t have believed you.

 

During those dark days under Levein, Kelly, Worthington, Allen, Megson and Holloway all we desperately wanted was to be back in the Premier League. Why is that not enough now?

 

We just need to keep it into perspective and realise that, despite the last freaky 10 years… some things take time! Lets keep finishing in the top 10-12 in the PL, keep developing these young players (who will be hit and miss), build these training facilities and put another tier on the East Stand and in 4/5 years’ time we’ll be seen as a very big club with some major pulling power and players will come to us as a club that’s got a proper chance of winning things regularly.

 

As much as some of the weirdos on here would hate to admit it, we need to follow Spurs’ example.
 

Very well said. It's also worth pointing out that we're actually in a pretty good position at the moment. Some of our table rivals have stumbled too. The PL is unforgiving and tough and to be looking at top half of the table after the first month or two of the season is nothing to scoff at, especially given the youth movement.

[ARM1968]

13 hours ago, Babylon said:

Oh and this "not playing new players"  stuff... just because something is new, doesn't make it better. That mentality is laughable.

My new TV is way better than my old one. I think you’re talking bollox. Old toaster didn’t work properly, new one works a treat. 

 

On another note though, have to agree, time and patience is required. We’re about where I expected us to be. Rub of the green in a few games and we’d be pretty much where Bournemouth are. Fine margins. 

[FLAN]

3 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

You mean Richarlison play acting from normal tackles, in tandem with the Everton dugout screaming for bookings.

He made the refs decision easy. 

[vanity]

On 06/10/2018 at 16:53, northernfox321 said:

Have we not reached point with that clown puel,we are seeing no improvement just same defensive issues the defence is soft as butter,no quality or depth up front no plan B just plays same old pointless passing around in non dangerous areas giving teams a goal start,not picking new players that are bought in,seem to win couple of games that papers over the cracks,then back same dross

I'm not expecting them to win the league but at least be competitive i mean Bournemouth are 5th st present surly there squad no better than ours please please please let's get rid of this clown,I'm sure i will take some pelters on this

Two steps back? Starting the weekend we had more points than the same time our title-winning seaso , didn't we?

 

Mate, sometimes there is no quick fix. We are improving. We looked the better side against Everton once we made some adjustments in the 2H, but Morgan ruined us. Let's not get hysterical about one game.

 

Speaking of one game, if we'd won the match at Bournemouth, we'd be ahead of them in the table. Again, I don't see the point in overreacting to the difference created by one game. especially at such an early point in the season.  

 

If we leave Puel in position, by this time next season we will look far more polished and assured playing in his system, we will have better players who find his style more intuitive than the players they replace, and we will be handling teams outside the top 6 or 7 with relative ease. Plus we will have a flourishing production line for young talent that comes off the assembly line ready for international duty. 

 

Or we can fire him. But if we do so, we set ourselves back at least a season or two as we hire a new manager who wants his own players and likely plays a different style. He won't get a crack at new players until the summer, and we'll likely have a worse record next season as we are complaining about the new guy and screaming for a quick fix as he works to implement his own vision. 

 

If you don't find this compelling at all, remember, we've already beaten the presumptive 2020 Champion's League winner twice this season. That should count for something.

 

Out of curiosity, who would you replace him with?

Edited 9 October 2018 by vanity
Too long

[Bunyip]

11 hours ago, RumbleFox said:

I do not disagree it would have been the right thing to do I just think pulling off your captain is a big call.  If he learns from it I have no issue with the fact he maybe got it wrong.

He's the manager. He's been in top flight management for years. If he didn't see the second Yellow coming when everyone in the ground could see it coming then he has no right to be the manager. He should not have to " learn " such basic man management.

Edited 9 October 2018 by Bunyip

[Reg Vardy]

If Wes had got a yellow,and not subsequently been sent off nobody would have passed comment.

It is Wes not Claude who was responsible for getting sent off.

Any manager would expect the player to manage the situation. Wes didn’t.

 

here we are with N’Didi, Gray, Maguire, Maddison, Chilwell, Ieanacho, Barnes to come back, the club (43 years) hasn’t been in a better place other than winning the league in my time. 7 players under 25 all internationals, all will improve.

FFS get off the Managers back and stop moaning and blaming him for others mistakes