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Ecdysiast

Claudio to Fulham

By Ecdysiast, in Leicester City Forum

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shen

shen

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

I never say terrible but rather not unconvincing enough for them. 

 

Big club wants to win something especially  national league, which ranieri had already had fair share with those big club but only won like serie b, ligue 2. Never won highest national league title with those big club and later sacked. So it will be reasonable for those big club to be reluctant to hire him. 

 

His Chelsea tenure aren't perfect at all. I remember how he sub robert huth on as right wing back which cost them get knocked out from champions league when they are leading before. 

Mourinho come and bring 3 midfield with 1 holding which surprise the majority of epl sides. He also bring his player which would become the core of Chelsea team

 

I never downplay our title win. I just write the fact here that our title win is happen not just because of him. We have amazing backroom staff, chairman, and majority of the signing was done during Pearson tenure. The 2nd season were magnify it how when the things turned different ways and he handle much more dominant task. 

 

I never says ranieri is terrible coach btw. I wrote before how fulham done a decent recruitment in him.he's just bit overrated 

Few managers have won a league at top level. And even by that account, Ranieri's recent success here should count for something. What pedigree did S. Scolari, Tuchel, Zidane, Henry, Sarri, Gattuso etc. have when they were hired? I'm not even arguing he should land a big job, but midtable/top 10 clubs are surely reasonable?
 

Of course his Chelsea tenure wasn't perfect, but he built a solid base that Mourinho managed brilliantly with some ridiculously expensive investments at the time.

It's silly how you point out one mistake in one game involving 22 players and blame the defeat on the coach. Then in the very next paragraph you play down his obvious tactical and pressure management in one of the most glorious of achievements of English football, instead attributing our success to his predecessor and surrounding environment.

Don't you think most if not all managerial successes depend on having good staff, infrastructure, owner support and skillful players?

 

Ranieri is obviously NOT overrated or he wouldn't be jumping in to take charge of the bottom PL side.

Edited by shen
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Hanan96

Hanan96

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Posted
Just now, shen said:

Few managers have won a league at top level. And even by that account, Ranieri's recent success here should count for something. What pedigree did S. Scolari, Tuchel, Zidane, Henry, Sarri, Gattuso etc. have when they were hired? I'm not even arguing he should land a big job, but midtable/top 10 clubs are surely reasonable?
 

Of course his Chelsea tenure wasn't perfect, but he built a solid base that Mourinho managed brilliantly with some ridiculously expensive investments at the time.

It's silly how you point out one mistake in one game involving 22 players and blame the defeat on the coach. Then in the very next paragraph you play down his obvious tactical and pressure management in one of the most glorious of achievements of English football, instead attributing our success to his predecessor and surrounding environment.

Don't you think most if not all managerial successes depend on having good staff, infrastructure, owner support and skillful players?

 

Ranieri is obviously NOT overrated or he wouldn't be jumping in to take charge of the bottom PL side.

Just now, shen said:

Few managers have won a league at top level. And even by that account, Ranieri's recent success here should count for something. What pedigree did S. Scolari, Tuchel, Zidane, Henry, Sarri, Gattuso etc. have when they were hired? I'm not even arguing he should land a big job, but midtable/top 10 clubs are surely reasonable?
 

Of course his Chelsea tenure wasn't perfect, but he built a solid base that Mourinho managed brilliantly with some ridiculously expensive investments at the time.

It's silly how you point out one mistake in one game involving 22 players and blame the defeat on the coach. Then in the very next paragraph you play down his obvious tactical and pressure management in one of the most glorious of achievements of English football, instead attributing our success to his predecessor and surrounding environment.

Don't you think most if not all managerial successes depend on having good staff, infrastructure, owner support and skillful players?

 

Ranieri is obviously NOT overrated or he wouldn't be jumping in to take charge of the bottom PL side.

1. about most of the name you mention, they have simmilar things in common. and not only they, but also with younger ranieri. what is that ? promising.

the likes of zidane, scolari, and gatusso were already popular in their club as player. So it will be easier to getting more support from fans, just like we put shakespare in , yes hes not our player but also popular figure. Its worth trying. they didnt have poor track record anyway.  So those potential coach can be hired with lesser wages and compensation should things go wrong, compared to already big name coach like Alex Ferguson.

The same things were happened to Ranieri, whos look promising coach who promote fiorentina and helping napoli cope with financial crisis. so bigger team made a chance on this promising coach like chelsea, valencia, atletico madrid, juventus, as Roma. 

 

the difference between Ranieri and those name are, Ranieri are already experienced the spells at big clubs, so the big can judge him based on those previous result, which unfortunately, not convincing enough. while the likes of Gatusso, Scolari, are yet to put real stamps on their coaching. Zidane , fortunately, doing enough to be among the big name coach just like Pep guardiola first tenure at Barcelona.

 

is midtable or top 10 reasonable ?? yes of course !! Hes not anywhere terible coach and not that great either. He is experienced coach. look at the CV above . and like what I already said, those place arent often got ambitious pressure which allow him to thrive.

 

2. Chelsea tenure wasnt perfect.. okay no problem.. mourinho win, well different with pearson and ranieri.. during mourinho, the chelsea team  got paulo fereira, petr cech, Robben,  Drogba, Tiago, Carvalho who would become the core of their team. Ranieri with Leicester, even theres new signing like Fuchs, Okazaki, they were signed by Pearson tenure. Kante were signed during Ranieri, while he preferred Mendy. 1 vs 7 , well different.

chelsea didnt be one season wonder. their shocking brand new tactic were in thriumph for at least 3 season. And then took them at least 7 years to made it out of top 3, while they made comeback asap. their signing are still key part of the team for some years. He did build good foundation.

leicester, after winning EPL, breaking transfer record multiple times. sounds simmilar with chelsea above, but somehow almost relegated. from those signing, almost all were struggling here and get sold. 

 

and why I attribute the success to his predescor and surrounding environment? I already mention. Majority of the player during title win are come from his predescor. We also are in 'different' situation or special ones. As I already mention, how many team in the history, have the so little number of injury and suspension that almost always played with the same lineup in every match whole season, then none of the backup player were complains for sitting on the bench almost whole season, while at the same time, all the big 6 team were outperformed ? , also at the same time, almost none of the team recognize our formula and played deeper defensive line? most of the time, a team who were made shock performance like us , will stop after half of the season, since the opposition made some formula to counter, and then theres no alternative, then the shocking performance stopped.

somehow, no team did that to us ,instead ,wait for the next season.

 

we have the luxury which will be almost impossible to happens in any other team in history.

 

3. When I read your post, you were said at how come the big club didnt hire him and instead only the likes of nantes and fulham. because of you only highlighting a single season, thats why I said you were overatte him.

 

aye about you mention I'm 'silly', well  theres another.sent out veron, who just recoverd from long term injury for 45th of crucial champions league matches, then drawing strikers for right back, only to bring on cb for that position later. there are many other things he did. this is just and example

why did I mention this ? this kind of things really important for big clubs. one match in ucl knock out is really costly. many of his decision is bizzare for big club standarts which costly at some important points

 

so those of experience will hinder him from further big club approach, unless he learnt from those experience and leicester experience, where should he tinker and not, then bring a mid team or bottom half team to constantly improve for long term, rather for just short term shock, then the big club will unlikely to consider him.

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shen

shen

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Posted
56 minutes ago, Hanan96 said:

1.

2.

3.

1. Severance pay is hardly an issue for clubs like PSG, Real Madrid, Dortmund etc. so I'll dismiss that argument. I don't know how you can claim that managers like Zidane, Solari, Gattuso "had promise". They were young coaches and they had playing successful playing careers, but football is littered with ex-players failing as managers/coaches. Ranieri is a solid choice, at the very least in the short term, for most top clubs.

 

2. I don't feel a need to go into the nitty gritty, but some of those players bought under Mourinho were long-time targets during Ranieri's reign already.

Funnily enough you don't skip over that fact when addressing his Leicester tenure...


But you cannot compare Chelsea and Leicester fairly - Chelsea were top spenders in the league at the time. Even after our title win, Leicesters net spend was below £40m - far below the biggest spenders.

Point taken about the subpar transfers made under Ranieri at Leicester, but you can't just pick and choose who to praise when things go well and who to blame when they don't.

Fact of the matter is that you just don't know who's responsible for what. For all you know, it could be Walsh who bombed with the signings of Slimani and Musa. You are also choosing to gloss over the fact that Ndidi and Mendy, both signed under Ranieri, are now the preferred midfield pairing under Puel...

 

You are still making excuses for our title win (all top clubs underperformed; our tactics were not sussed out; our tactics failed the following season; extraordinary lack of injuries etc) and I'm not having that. In short, you are removing Leicester's contribution by saying we were "lucky" and only won "because others failed". I find that, frankly, insulting.

 

3. No, I don't overrate him because of one season. I rate him because of his career achievements of which his title season with us is the crown jewel, his magnum opus. I don't care for singular mistakes, even recurring ones. Everyone makes them. Mourinho, one the most successful managers in modern football, is a bloody car wreck these days. He's making the same mistakes he made at Chelsea. Ferguson made countless mistakes as did Wenger. Does that make them any less great?
Ranieri, known unfairly as "The Tinkerman" (which modern top manager these days doesn't swear by squad rotation?), defied his reputation and made just minor adjustments to achieve the unimaginable. That's brilliantly skillful and superb management and not dumb luck.

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Dan LCFC

Dan LCFC

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Posted
18 hours ago, Gwyn said:

Claudio Ranieri is one of the best man managers there is, that is the key to his success, however, he doesn't have the tactical skills of Eddie Howe. 

An absolute gentleman with great charisma, but if things don't work out he can be found wanting on changing tactics, formations.

He obviously still has a burning passion, so good luck to him. As for giving him a standing ovation and singing his name for 90 minutes, I for one will be singing for our current manager.

I'm not sure about that. Look how frequently it goes wrong for him with fractured dressing rooms etc...

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Hanan96

Hanan96

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Posted
13 hours ago, shen said:

1. Severance pay is hardly an issue for clubs like PSG, Real Madrid, Dortmund etc. so I'll dismiss that argument. I don't know how you can claim that managers like Zidane, Solari, Gattuso "had promise". They were young coaches and they had playing successful playing careers, but football is littered with ex-players failing as managers/coaches. Ranieri is a solid choice, at the very least in the short term, for most top clubs.

 

2. I don't feel a need to go into the nitty gritty, but some of those players bought under Mourinho were long-time targets during Ranieri's reign already.

Funnily enough you don't skip over that fact when addressing his Leicester tenure...


But you cannot compare Chelsea and Leicester fairly - Chelsea were top spenders in the league at the time. Even after our title win, Leicesters net spend was below £40m - far below the biggest spenders.

Point taken about the subpar transfers made under Ranieri at Leicester, but you can't just pick and choose who to praise when things go well and who to blame when they don't.

Fact of the matter is that you just don't know who's responsible for what. For all you know, it could be Walsh who bombed with the signings of Slimani and Musa. You are also choosing to gloss over the fact that Ndidi and Mendy, both signed under Ranieri, are now the preferred midfield pairing under Puel...

 

You are still making excuses for our title win (all top clubs underperformed; our tactics were not sussed out; our tactics failed the following season; extraordinary lack of injuries etc) and I'm not having that. In short, you are removing Leicester's contribution by saying we were "lucky" and only won "because others failed". I find that, frankly, insulting.

 

3. No, I don't overrate him because of one season. I rate him because of his career achievements of which his title season with us is the crown jewel, his magnum opus. I don't care for singular mistakes, even recurring ones. Everyone makes them. Mourinho, one the most successful managers in modern football, is a bloody car wreck these days. He's making the same mistakes he made at Chelsea. Ferguson made countless mistakes as did Wenger. Does that make them any less great?
Ranieri, known unfairly as "The Tinkerman" (which modern top manager these days doesn't swear by squad rotation?), defied his reputation and made just minor adjustments to achieve the unimaginable. That's brilliantly skillful and superb management and not dumb luck.

The likes of zidane, gatusso, scolari, guardiola, giggs, etc are popular figure on their club respectively, by having they at the club will at least offer 2 benefit, respect from fans and dressing club. 

The different between younger ranieri and current ranieri is that the younger are yet to manage at top level while look promising potential. When the club hire someone who did have some fail at big team, they will think twice at how and why it happened. This made it hard for the likes of benitez (unfortunate to choose madrid) rijkard(no more europe giant anymore before finally retired early) and ranieri himself. Because they have already track record on the giants and unfortunately, not so good. 

This is why choosing the right club in the coaching career is difficult. One failure, it never erased from their CV and always questioned 

 

This is one of the why some club preferred young coach whom look promising for their club, like Neville goes to valencia for example. He didn't have good spells, and hardly other big team gamble on him anymore. 

 

About title win, its not a downplay. Its a fact. The largely simmilar squad with even the same coach and tactic, where are they? Challenging for top 3?top 6?

 

Shakespeare built the team to mimmic our title win season

Bring back okazaki, 442. Are we challenge for top 3 or top 6?

 

Atletico madrid, at least, keep challenging around top 3 after their shocking title win, not hovering in the relegation zone which happen twice to us. 

 

We have a good squad with good mental stage after our form during the great.escape. But we never come close with the top team after that season. all of those things deserve credit , not just the manager. This is one of the factor of over ambitious things around here at the momment

 

 

Mourinho and Ferguson did made mistake. Nobody is perfect. And they did also won multiple national and continental crown. That's made them at different level 

 

I said you overate him as you only put title winning judgement without even slight consideration about the season after, and the rest of his career. 

 

Mendi ndidi? Took him half season to consider the last name. He was consider between striker or midfielder central as deadline day signing and choose the striker. 

 

Also count those new player under mourinho.ranieri long term signing?

Ranieri and mourinho have the next future career. Look at least 10 next year. Enough time for football player development. So ranieri have good eye on player. Where is the other long term signing? Did he bring them or somobody other to somewhere to win something? 

 

At other side mourinho won some more in inter milan and real madrid.

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FLAN

FLAN

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8 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Gonna be interesting to see how Ranners plays it at Fulham. He loves his counter attacking, yet Fulham have zero pace up top with Mitrovic who’s about as quick as mi granny.

I also wonder if he’ll try to plunder us a little in Jan? Could he come in for King and Simmo maybe?

King ? mr anonymous who hasn’t played for 6 months. Perfect choice for a relegation battle

simpson I’ll give you bit as amartey is injured would he be allowed to go?

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volpeazzurro

volpeazzurro

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I just wish him the very very best and good luck with them. His experience is probably what they need now in the position they are in. Individually they have some good players but leak so many goals and look disorganised. This was one of the first areas he changed with us in our winning season,  a more solid traditional flat back defensive 4 with some little guy called Kante given free reign to make sure it didn't get that far in the first place! Fulham probably haven't got a Kante but I'm 100% sure he gives them a much better chance of staying up (unless there's player issues behind the scenes).

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Vince Vega

Vince Vega

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11 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Gonna be interesting to see how Ranners plays it at Fulham. He loves his counter attacking, yet Fulham have zero pace up top with Mitrovic who’s about as quick as mi granny.

I also wonder if he’ll try to plunder us a little in Jan? Could he come in for King and Simmo maybe?

We were having this conversation at work yesterday.  I think you are right with Simmo.  I have a sneeky feeling he may come in for Morgan too. Could be wrong though.

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Hanan96

Hanan96

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26 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

I just wish him the very very best and good luck with them. His experience is probably what they need now in the position they are in. Individually they have some good players but leak so many goals and look disorganised. This was one of the first areas he changed with us in our winning season,  a more solid traditional flat back defensive 4 with some little guy called Kante given free reign to make sure it didn't get that far in the first place! Fulham probably haven't got a Kante but I'm 100% sure he gives them a much better chance of staying up (unless there's player issues behind the scenes).

Missed that little guy with the biggest lung in our team :(

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Chester Dontlie

Chester Dontlie

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@Hanan96

I think I share your reservations about Ranieri but I don't think anyone can 'underrate' or 'overrate' a manager who wins the Prem with an underdog on a 5000/1 chance. It's just incomparable with anything else in football. That alone makes Mourinhos La Liga, Premier League, Serie A, even CL wins rather bland in comparison, after all his teams were always (maybe except Porto's CL win but that was hardly 5000/1) among the favourites. While Ranieri's following season at Leicester was disastrous in the Prem, it wasn't so bad on the European front where we reached the quarterfinals of CL (technically, the quarterfinals happened under Shakes but Ranners got us through the group to the knockout stages, so at least in Europe he did an okay job...) and in the end marginally lost with Atletico.

 

Speaking of which, you mention Atletico like they were some kind of underdogs, who each year push for the top 3 "after their shocking title win". Even if we forget about the lack of competitiveness in La Liga compared to the PL, Atletico won it 10 times in their history and featured in Europe numerous times (3 times winning the EL in last 8 years). Hardly the underdog.

 

Looking at what happened after the title win from the perspective I think obviously we underperformed, but was it realistic for anyone to expect us to finish top 4 or even top 6t? PL is the most competitive among the top leagues and if you want to be top 6 then some of the big boys would have to slip. In 15/16 the stars were aligned our way (but still it required Ranieri's stroke of genius to win the league - to be the best in 38 league games with 10 point gap over the 2nd team is never down to luck). Where we are now, we would probably need to spend 3-4 times the amount we do for transfers to have our high expectations grounded and challenge for the top 6 spot (Liverpool bought a goalie for 56+ mil I don't think we can (nor should) compete with that).

SInce the title win we've lost two of our three star players (one of them, immediately). Especially Kante's loss was massive (we still are in the process of finding and nurturing our new stars). I agree that Ranieri was in his second season too stubborn, too over reliant on some of the (aging) title winners, and completely unwilling/unable to adapt when our system was found out. But IMO his 2016/17 incompetence doesn't take anything away from his 2015/16 brilliance. Whatever it is he did in 15/16, it required not only luck and experience, but also a healthy dose of  genius. He pushed all the required buttons in the exact order to make it happen. He will need to do it again now at Fulham. I wish him the best obviously. They are shit now but there's still a lot of time to change things and lot of points to win. 

 

As for the once a 'special one' now just an 'ordinary Joe' Moaninho... He's a living proof of the truth that as a manager you're only as good as your recent few seasons.. I think he's like a walking reminder for all the people in high places, that if you're being cocky, disrespectful, bullyish, in general act like a twat, all the shit you throw about will at some point come around and people will take pleasure in seeing you fall. He's the exact opposite of Claudio. Like many neutrals I'm rather delighted to see him burn out and auto destruct. He may have been a brilliant manager few seasons ago, but he was a ****. Now, he's only a ****.

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gw_leics772

gw_leics772

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vince Vega said:

We were having this conversation at work yesterday.  I think you are right with Simmo.  I have a sneeky feeling he may come in for Morgan too. Could be wrong though.

With all of the respect that is obviously due to him, i certainly hope that is the case with morgan both for him and us.

Edited by gw_leics772
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Hanan96

Hanan96

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2 hours ago, Chester Dontlie said:

 

@Hanan96

I think I share your reservations about Ranieri but I don't think anyone can 'underrate' or 'overrate' a manager who wins the Prem with an underdog on a 5000/1 chance. It's just incomparable with anything else in football. That alone makes Mourinhos La Liga, Premier League, Serie A, even CL wins rather bland in comparison, after all his teams were always (maybe except Porto's CL win but that was hardly 5000/1) among the favourites. While Ranieri's following season at Leicester was disastrous in the Prem, it wasn't so bad on the European front where we reached the quarterfinals of CL (technically, the quarterfinals happened under Shakes but Ranners got us through the group to the knockout stages, so at least in Europe he did an okay job...) and in the end marginally lost with Atletico.

 

Speaking of which, you mention Atletico like they were some kind of underdogs, who each year push for the top 3 "after their shocking title win". Even if we forget about the lack of competitiveness in La Liga compared to the PL, Atletico won it 10 times in their history and featured in Europe numerous times (3 times winning the EL in last 8 years). Hardly the underdog.

 

Looking at what happened after the title win from the perspective I think obviously we underperformed, but was it realistic for anyone to expect us to finish top 4 or even top 6t? PL is the most competitive among the top leagues and if you want to be top 6 then some of the big boys would have to slip. In 15/16 the stars were aligned our way (but still it required Ranieri's stroke of genius to win the league - to be the best in 38 league games with 10 point gap over the 2nd team is never down to luck). Where we are now, we would probably need to spend 3-4 times the amount we do for transfers to have our high expectations grounded and challenge for the top 6 spot (Liverpool bought a goalie for 56+ mil I don't think we can (nor should) compete with that).

SInce the title win we've lost two of our three star players (one of them, immediately). Especially Kante's loss was massive (we still are in the process of finding and nurturing our new stars). I agree that Ranieri was in his second season too stubborn, too over reliant on some of the (aging) title winners, and completely unwilling/unable to adapt when our system was found out. But IMO his 2016/17 incompetence doesn't take anything away from his 2015/16 brilliance. Whatever it is he did in 15/16, it required not only luck and experience, but also a healthy dose of  genius. He pushed all the required buttons in the exact order to make it happen. He will need to do it again now at Fulham. I wish him the best obviously. They are shit now but there's still a lot of time to change things and lot of points to win. 

 

As for the once a 'special one' now just an 'ordinary Joe' Moaninho... He's a living proof of the truth that as a manager you're only as good as your recent few seasons.. I think he's like a walking reminder for all the people in high places, that if you're being cocky, disrespectful, bullyish, in general act like a twat, all the shit you throw about will at some point come around and  will take pleasure in seeing you fall. He's the exact opposite of Claudio. Like many neutrals I'm rather delighted to see him burn out and auto destruct. He may have been a brilliant manager few seasons ago, but he was a ****. Now, he's only a ****.

Thanks for your reply. 

I have no problem with the majority of your post, your point with mine aren't like earth and sun to be honest. 

 

Here, what I'm talking with another member, sorry forgotten the ID, are mostly not about how terrible ranieri is, neither how luck 'solely' won us the title. 

 

The first time I saw his post, my understanding is he were asking why, after our title win, ranieri 'only' managing club like nantes and fulham, instead of the big team which didn't mentioned. I percept this as giant like chelsea, real madrid, Milan, etc, which followed with the name of coach like sarri, zidane.. All of them are in those club, the big club with the tradition instead of just mid table team. 

 

Thats why I tried to write more about the another side of him, which will made big sides reasonably need to think twice before hire him. He have fair share of times with the big teams, like valencia, rome, Chelsea, inter, and failed to deliver according to their standard and ambitions, while reasonable did a decent job with team like fiorentina. 

 

To cut it short, even with epl winning, he didn't stand with the 'big name' like guardiola, zidane, or even ferguson. 

 

After our title win, we are going to relegation zone. That were show 2 things. Our squad aren't the world beater which will constantly battle for the top 3, let alone top 6. But relegation zone with such big signing, is really not a good things. We should at least around 10th instead of below 15th for long time. So I don't think we can say he is stand with ferguson, mourinho, conte. If he have us around 10th the next season, then compete 'constantly' in Europe after a year or two then he's could be considered, and deserve another chance to go there.

 

This is one of the reason I'm big supporter of claude puel at the momment, but this is not the place to tall about it. 

 

Regarding of atletico madrid, what I want to show is that,after the title win, they made another position

Previously, barcelona and real madrid are the 1st and 2nd. The 3rd are competition between valencia, sevilla, atletico madrid. By now 1,2,3 position are for them and 4th is competition for others. They didn't decline to be like 10th team after the title win. The oppositions surely learn their tactic, they can still survive for couple years and even be in final of ucl twice in less than 5 years. 

 

Regarding to mourinho, he recently won the European league, after man utd team were struggling under van gaal. He's might look decline, but his club aren't that good before he come, and aren't that bad after. 

 

For shorter version, ranieri in mind for now is around 9 or 10th club coach, rather than top 5 or bottom 5.

 

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Sithbaare

Sithbaare

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Posted

Been lurking around the forum of late, I'd say that Claudio is a good option to have at this point of time. Clearly needs investment though in quality defense. I'd expect him to do a simple 4-4-2 with more defensive duties for the likes of Sessegnon and Schurlle before getting in a defender to shore up the defense in January. Don't think the season is lost yet for Fulham. 


 

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