What's in the news?

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Toddybad said:

Absolutely. What brexit shares with those things is that in public discourse people with opinions are being allowed to share a platform with experts. It is not a good thing. 

If I'm being totally honest Toddy my own opinion on Brexit is that while there's expert opinion abound it is still a morass of uncertainty - economics and the like almost always is - and as such doesn't belong in the same certainty of discourse as the vaccine and climate change debates. But that's me.

[Guest Kopfkino]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If I'm being totally honest Toddy my own opinion on Brexit is that while there's expert opinion abound it is still a morass of uncertainty - economics and the like almost always is - and as such doesn't belong in the same certainty of discourse as the vaccine and climate change debates. But that's me.

 

Tbf that's not true. It's as clear as night and day that increasing barriers to trade makes a country poorer - it's as clear as climate science.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Tbf that's not true. It's as clear as night and day that increasing barriers to trade makes a country poorer - it's as clear as climate science.

Much obliged for the clarification, and I'd agree - hence my careful use of the qualifier 'almost' in my previous post.

[Heathrow fox]

1 hour ago, Toddybad said:

Every time I see brexiteers audience members howling for a hard brexit on question time they are grey haired. 

 

Our pensioners didn't fight in the wars yet bang on about them continuously. They lived charmed lives where homes could be bought with one wage and income have risen quickly.

 

Instead of being grateful, they've turned the EU into some object of hate despite it not being clear what exactly is wrong with it. 

 

Single instances of non-deportations are used to claim that the rules that guarantee all our human rights are no good. 

 

Workers rights are rolled back by the very age group that most benefited from them. 

 

They have triple locked pensions are never have to pay for the results of their votes. The older ones didn't pay for the last financial crisis and they won't pay for the next one. They're entirely insulated from the effects of job losses. 

 

They've left a dark future for their children and grandchildren that didn't want it. 

Bit harsh on the pensioners there.Many would have suffered the direct consequences of the World War 2.A very skint country to grow up in for the best part of a decade.A lot of relationships with fathers (lucky enough to make it home) broken.To name to just 2.

 

Maybe some can remember pre 1975 and think you know what at least we made things back then.We had high union membership.One wage could just about run a house.Most immigration came from the commonwealth,and that was to fill in labour shortages.

 

You will probably argue that it’s the governments we have elected that have taken us where we are.Yet every prime minister since 1979 has been as pro EU as you could get.Major Blair Cameron and Thatcher if she was still alive have been the biggest screamers for a 2nd ref.Its not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

 

People have had enough of this race to the bottom and it’s not just on this island.As it goes a lot of the over 70s I know voted remain.Some reluctantly but they were wise enough to know that it would be a ten year process of choas taking up a lot of parliamentary time and effort.With zero guarantee of a positive outcome. 

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

16 hours ago, Izzy said:

First time it’s got real for me personally and impacted on my work and finances. Up until now it’s just been noise.

 

16 hours ago, bovril said:

I am surprised how disconnected so many people seem to be from the reality of it. 

 

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

It's the 'it'll never happen to me' effect which Brits are especially fond of. We live in such a privileged position that we've never had a real threat to our way of first world living since 1945. Why did we do this to ourselves again?

 

Two years ago, I would have been surprised at how disconnected from the reality people are. My expectations then were that it would become apparent that (a) we wouldn't get a good deal with the EU; and (b) No Deal would be disastrous. My hope was that this would cause many voters to rethink and to switch either to Remain or, at worst, to Soft Brexit. It has been clear for months that my negative expectations about deal/no deal were justified - and that my hope that people would change their thinking in the light of reality was NOT justified.

 

A poll was just quoted on Marr. Can't remember exact figures but approx. 42% want No Deal, 43% want a second referendum. Polls consistently show a lot of support for No Deal.

 

So, people being disconnected from the reality doesn't surprise me now. 

As for WHY people are disconnected from the reality, I'd say:

- Politics/economics in general is complicated and only a small minority have sufficient time and interest to gain a decent understanding;

- The functioning of the EU and Brexit is particularly complicated and people (on all sides) have a particularly low level of understanding;

- In recent years, there's been a big increase in cynicism about the trustworthiness of politicians & other public figures (business people, specialist experts, journalists etc.)....and a profusion of extra info, much of unreliable/partisan

 

For me, that combination of factors explains why few people have changed their minds and support for No Deal is high. I'm sure a lot of people would relate to Izzy's comment for that reason: it's just noise, until it affects them personally. The problem with No Deal is that most people would not be affected until AFTER No Deal - and by then it'd be too late to avoid many of the disastrous impacts, for months, probably years. I'm still hopeful that No Deal will be avoided, but who knows?

 

I don't mean these comments to be insulting to Izzy, to Leave voters or to those supporting No Deal. I don't understand every aspect of politics/EU/Brexit myself and if I have a better understanding than most, that's only because, unlike most people, I find politics, economics and the EU very interesting so I've read and thought about it a lot. That's not to do with being "thick" or "smart". There are loads of important things that I know sod all about: technology, house construction, plumbing/electrics, science etc. I know sod all about them because I've not had sufficient interest to learn about them. It's not because I'm thick, I'm just ignorant because time is limited and I've had other priorities....and a lot of people have less time and more stress in their lives than I have. Also, although that ignorance makes me vulnerable to cowboy builders/electricians/plumbers or whatever, I'm confident that most such tradespeople are competent and trustworthy. I'd have to be unlucky to get conned. Whereas a lot of people believe that MOST politicians and other public figures are dishonest, part of the reason why it's "just noise" when they're told about the risks of No Deal etc.

 

How we restore some trust in politics and other parts of public life are a big question - and our democracy and future security are at risk if we don't. 

 

This situation also shows just what a bad idea it was to decide such an important issue by a 50%+1 referendum, when the issue was so complicated, a lot of people felt deeply insecure and trust in politicians/big business/experts was so low.

I say that as someone who quite welcomed the referendum at the time. We'd had decades of ill-informed carping about the EU and I naively imagined we could have a proper, informed public debate. I was wrong, big time!

[Alf Bentley]

3 hours ago, Toddybad said:

Every time I see brexiteers audience members howling for a hard brexit on question time they are grey haired. 

 

Our pensioners didn't fight in the wars yet bang on about them continuously. They lived charmed lives where homes could be bought with one wage and income have risen quickly.

 

Instead of being grateful, they've turned the EU into some object of hate despite it not being clear what exactly is wrong with it. 

 

Single instances of non-deportations are used to claim that the rules that guarantee all our human rights are no good. 

 

Workers rights are rolled back by the very age group that most benefited from them. 

 

They have triple locked pensions are never have to pay for the results of their votes. The older ones didn't pay for the last financial crisis and they won't pay for the next one. They're entirely insulated from the effects of job losses. 

 

They've left a dark future for their children and grandchildren that didn't want it. 

 

While there's a lot of truth in your generalisation, I really don't think this is a useful argument to adopt.

 

Yes, many current pensioners did well during the second half of the 20th century, though some did not. Many have led charmed lives, but many have not....and it's mainly younger generations, including politicians and journalists, who have fueled hatred of the EU.

 

Older generations voted disproportionately for Brexit, but we should be trying to understand why they did that, not just issuing a generalised condemnation of "the grey-haired", which irritates the more reasonable Brexit supporters and makes them less inclined to listen or think. A lot of older people probably support Brexit out of fear of "over-rapid" social change, the country becoming one they don't recognise....not just because they're racist bigots or want to take the UK back to the 1950s (though some do). It is equally true that a lot of young people voted Remain in total ignorance - and sometimes just because the idea of being an "open-minded internationalist" made them feel good about themselves in an egotistical way.

 

Generalisations like this just cause more division, in my view. We need more understanding, thought and listening, not more condemnation and division.

 

It's wrong when people condemn all younger people or Remain voters as "right-on snowflakes" or whatever. It's also wrong to depict Brexit as a project purely of reactionaries, racists and OAPs.

 

FWIW, my Dad died, aged 91, just after the referendum. He was too debilitated to vote, but would definitely have voted Remain. My Mum went 18 months earlier and would probably have done likewise (not 100% sure about her - she was a bit of a kneejerk Hard Left type! ). 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

36 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This situation also shows just what a bad idea it was to decide such an important issue by a 50%+1 referendum, when the issue was so complicated, a lot of people felt deeply insecure and trust in politicians/big business/experts was so low.

I say that as someone who quite welcomed the referendum at the time. We'd had decades of ill-informed carping about the EU and I naively imagined we could have a proper, informed public debate. I was wrong, big time!

Thing is though, we already had/have a de facto EU referendum every 5 years. It's called a General Election, and there is a party people can vote for whose only reason for being is to get us out of the EU. We didn't need a referendum and the ensuing ball ache caused by it.

[Alf Bentley]

26 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Thing is though, we already had/have a de facto EU referendum every 5 years. It's called a General Election, and there is a party people can vote for whose only reason for being is to get us out of the EU. We didn't need a referendum and the ensuing ball ache caused by it.

 

As I said, with hindsight the referendum was a disastrous idea. Particularly with 2 cynical, dishonest campaigns and a simple 50% majority required. I'm also under no illusions that Cameron had noble reasons for calling it - it was purely a cynical Tory party management issue for him, papering over divisions in his own party.

 

At the time, though, after 20+ years of ill-informed debate/carping about the EU, I naively thought that we might have a proper debate of the pros and cons during a referendum campaign. Wrong!

 

I take your point that voters had the option to support UKIP at a General Election, but that's not the same as a referendum. Only hard-core obsessives vote on a single issue at general elections. Doesn't make a referendum a good idea, with hindsight, of course, though the boil of discontent needed lancing somehow. How, though? Less austerity and insecurity? More honest politicians/journalists? Better education/media?

 

It's a disaster, anyway - potentially a very major disaster if we get No Deal.

 

Right, time for football....

[The Guvnor]

4 hours ago, Toddybad said:

Every time I see brexiteers audience members howling for a hard brexit on question time they are grey haired. 

 

Our pensioners didn't fight in the wars yet bang on about them continuously. They lived charmed lives where homes could be bought with one wage and income have risen quickly.

 

Instead of being grateful, they've turned the EU into some object of hate despite it not being clear what exactly is wrong with it. 

 

Single instances of non-deportations are used to claim that the rules that guarantee all our human rights are no good. 

 

Workers rights are rolled back by the very age group that most benefited from them. 

 

They have triple locked pensions are never have to pay for the results of their votes. The older ones didn't pay for the last financial crisis and they won't pay for the next one. They're entirely insulated from the effects of job losses. 

 

They've left a dark future for their children and grandchildren that didn't want it. 

Behave yourself.  Have you ever spoken to these grey haired pensioners. Ask them about housing,  food and creature comforts, then come back, apologise and think about what you post on here.

[Toddybad]

12 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Behave yourself.  Have you ever spoken to these grey haired pensioners. Ask them about housing,  food and creature comforts, then come back, apologise and think about what you post on here.

The last generation of pensioners had a really tough time. Governments of both parties worked hard to change this. The current lot are amongst the most prosperous element of society. Obviously there will be some that aren't but taking the age group as a whole they are far better off than their predecessors. 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Italy is in the midst of an Economic Depression, and is not happy with the E.U. over funding. They will be the next to leave, having already threatened to have a referendum.

[The Guvnor]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

While there's a lot of truth in your generalisation, I really don't think this is a useful argument to adopt.

 

Yes, many current pensioners did well during the second half of the 20th century, though some did not. Many have led charmed lives, but many have not....and it's mainly younger generations, including politicians and journalists, who have fueled hatred of the EU.

 

Older generations voted disproportionately for Brexit, but we should be trying to understand why they did that, not just issuing a generalised condemnation of "the grey-haired", which irritates the more reasonable Brexit supporters and makes them less inclined to listen or think. A lot of older people probably support Brexit out of fear of "over-rapid" social change, the country becoming one they don't recognise....not just because they're racist bigots or want to take the UK back to the 1950s (though some do). It is equally true that a lot of young people voted Remain in total ignorance - and sometimes just because the idea of being an "open-minded internationalist" made them feel good about themselves in an egotistical way.

 

Generalisations like this just cause more division, in my view. We need more understanding, thought and listening, not more condemnation and division.

 

It's wrong when people condemn all younger people or Remain voters as "right-on snowflakes" or whatever. It's also wrong to depict Brexit as a project purely of reactionaries, racists and OAPs.

 

FWIW, my Dad died, aged 91, just after the referendum. He was too debilitated to vote, but would definitely have voted Remain. My Mum went 18 months earlier and would probably have done likewise (not 100% sure about her - she was a bit of a kneejerk Hard Left type! ). 

Ha ha explains a lot as you've suggested.

Only joking, really enjoy reading your posts even though I don't always agree.

[Spiritwalker]

7 hours ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

A second referendum is basically saying because the some of the politicians didn't like the result of the first one

can we try again ?

I didn't like the result against Cardiff at home this season … can we declare the match null and void and play it again ?

Anyway let's leave it there.

We are both entitled to our own opinions as both of us choose to live in a hopefully democratic country.

I was on the fence about a 2nd referendum but if we get to replay the Cardiff match in with the deal then that

swings it for me.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Toddybad said:

The last generation of pensioners had a really tough time. Governments of both parties worked hard to change this. The current lot are amongst the most prosperous element of society. Obviously there will be some that aren't but taking the age group as a whole they are far better off than their predecessors. 

 

What a load of tosh generalisation. It's below your standards Toddy.

 

You are making a sweeping generalisation without any facts. All generations live through whatever they have to live through. They may be fortunate with some things and may not be with others, they work, they live, they die. They have every right to vote whatever way they want. It smacks of jealousy that an obviously younger man can make these claims. Your life is pretty prosperous so I guess you're just a hypocrite with these statements.

 

Still I guess it's a way of life for some to find someone else to blame for things they don't like, whether that's Brexit, or pollution or the end of the world.  If enough really care they can do something about it, I think generally it's easy to whinge and moan and live a great life than to actually act on your convictions to try to get the world how you want it.

[Toddybad]

2 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

What a load of tosh generalisation. It's below your standards Toddy.

 

You are making a sweeping generalisation without any facts. All generations live through whatever they have to live through. They may be fortunate with some things and may not be with others, they work, they live, they die. They have every right to vote whatever way they want. It smacks of jealousy that an obviously younger man can make these claims. Your life is pretty prosperous so I guess you're just a hypocrite with these statements.

 

Still I guess it's a way of life for some to find someone else to blame for things they don't like, whether that's Brexit, or pollution or the end of the world.  If enough really care they can do something about it, I think generally it's easy to whinge and moan and live a great life than to actually act on your convictions to try to get the world how you want it.

It was a generalisation so, yes, it ignores individual circumstances. I'm raising points about broad groups, not specific individuals.

 

Perhaps I wrote it harshly but I think it's fair to question why an age group that is comparatively better off than its predecessors voted the way it, in general, did.

 

I think it's also fair to mention that, again generally speaking, loss of jobs won't affect them and they've taken a gamble with their children's and grandchildren's futures. 

 

Within that there may be all sorts of personal reasons and rationales but the significant difference been the votes of working age and pensioners can legitimately be questioned taking into account the general likelihood of a negative result affecting them less. 

[Countryfox]

8 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

What a load of tosh generalisation. It's below your standards Toddy.

 

You are making a sweeping generalisation without any facts. All generations live through whatever they have to live through. They may be fortunate with some things and may not be with others, they work, they live, they die. They have every right to vote whatever way they want. It smacks of jealousy that an obviously younger man can make these claims. Your life is pretty prosperous so I guess you're just a hypocrite with these statements.

 

Still I guess it's a way of life for some to find someone else to blame for things they don't like, whether that's Brexit, or pollution or the end of the world.  If enough really care they can do something about it, I think generally it's easy to whinge and moan and live a great life than to actually act on your convictions to try to get the world how you want it.

 

The only saving grace is that one day Toddy will have grey hair and then will have to listen to all the young uns called him a waste of fookin space ..   

 

Or even worse !!! ...    

[Jimothy]

12 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

The only saving grace is that one day Toddy will have grey hair and then will have to listen to all the young uns called him a waste of fookin space ..   

 

Or even worse !!! ...    

He didn't call them a waste of space did he. If you're going to criticise someone, criticise them for something they've actually done.

[Countryfox]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

He didn't call them a waste of space did he. If you're going to criticise someone, criticise them for something they've actually done.

Never said he did Flannel ...   I’m referring to a potential scenario in the future ...   

[Jimothy]

4 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Never said he did Flannel ...   I’m referring to a potential scenario in the future ...   

Seems odd to bring it up as potentially happening to toddy, when he never did it himself, not sure what point you're actually trying to make.

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

Seems odd to bring it up as potentially happening to toddy, when he never did it himself, not sure what point you're actually trying to make.

 

Fairly straightforward.  Toddy is accusing ‘grey haired’ people of ruining the future of their children and grandchildren by voting to leave ... which is basically bolox.  And I was trying to point this out in a sort of jokey non aggressive manner ...   until you poked your big hooter in.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Toddybad said:

It was a generalisation so, yes, it ignores individual circumstances. I'm raising points about broad groups, not specific individuals.

 

Perhaps I wrote it harshly but I think it's fair to question why an age group that is comparatively better off than its predecessors voted the way it, in general, did.

 

I think it's also fair to mention that, again generally speaking, loss of jobs won't affect them and they've taken a gamble with their children's and grandchildren's futures. 

 

Within that there may be all sorts of personal reasons and rationales but the significant difference been the votes of working age and pensioners can legitimately be questioned taking into account the general likelihood of a negative result affecting them less. 

But isn't that every person in every vote. Are you suggesting that we should only vote on things that are going to happen within the next few weeks/months? - Of course you aren't. Are you suggesting that these people care less about their children's and Grandchildren's lives than about the last few years of their own? I doubt it but if you are I'd say that generally speaking you are completely wrong.

 

You help balance the Brexit argument here but I feel that in this instance your argument is a falsehood.

[Toddybad]

23 minutes ago, FIF said:

But isn't that every person in every vote. Are you suggesting that we should only vote on things that are going to happen within the next few weeks/months? - Of course you aren't. Are you suggesting that these people care less about their children's and Grandchildren's lives than about the last few years of their own? I doubt it but if you are I'd say that generally speaking you are completely wrong.

 

You help balance the Brexit argument here but I feel that in this instance your argument is a falsehood.

Tbf I'm probably putting a spin on the conversations happening within my own family where old leavers can't adequately explain their choices, and have no clue about any facts /evidence /numbers beyond a few beliefs they have that are demonstrably false. You can imagine the sort of relative I am in these circumstances ??

[Milo]

Just came across this from an old New Statesmen...

 

 

...Apparently we should just all calm down

 

 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/06/calm-down-trump-wont-be-president-and-britain-wont-leave-eu

 

 

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, Toddybad said:

Tbf I'm probably putting a spin on the conversations happening within my own family where old leavers can't adequately explain their choices, and have no clue about any facts /evidence /numbers beyond a few beliefs they have that are demonstrably false. You can imagine the sort of relative I am in these circumstances ??

 Tbf Toddy a lot of younger voters haven’t got a clue either ...   we’ve been given misleading and vague information from the start ...   the only pertinent point is that ..  hopefully ...   the majority balance out and come to the right decision...   unfortunately in this case what the right decision is, is not clear.   

[Toddybad]

You've only got another 7 weeks or so of me posting stuff like this guys... 

 

A supermarket chain buyer explaining the impact of, you guessed it, hard brexit.