In It Together?

[lgfualol]

4 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Does he?

Fair play, he PLAYS them, but is that the same as ‘developing’ them?

Personally, I think Ndidi and Nacho have gone downhill. They looked better players when they joined us?

Maguire hasn’t really improved. He’s stayed about the same. And Gray might as well not be playing. Add to this, Diabate, who looked fine when he joined, but is now out on loan and apart from Chilwell (who was always going to only get better) and Amartey (who’s just...ok) and I’m struggling to see any clear ‘development’. Even Maddison, clearly an extremely able young player, looks lost in his role.

I can’t agree with you mate.

How was Chilwell always going to get better? Last Summer half our fans thought he was Championship standard. He made loads of mistakes. Unfair to take any credit away from Puel.

[Col city fan]

1 minute ago, lgfualol said:

How was Chilwell always going to get better? Last Summer half our fans thought he was Championship standard. He made loads of mistakes. Unfair to take any credit away from Puel.

We all know your adoration of Puel and frankly it’s getting boring. You don’t discuss, you are just ‘pro puel’

Chilwell was always going to remove Fuchs from the side, this was the natural progression. And it’s no coincidence that he’s being courted by ‘bigger clubs’

Now let’s start discussing Ndidi, Nacho, even Maddison..... 

[pazzerfox]

The problem is now though is that the majority of fans would rather have Claude Littner in charge rather than Claude Puel which leaves us divided!

[foxinsocks]

5 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Does he?

Fair play, he PLAYS them, but is that the same as ‘developing’ them?

Personally, I think Ndidi and Nacho have gone downhill. They looked better players when they joined us?

Maguire hasn’t really improved. He’s stayed about the same. And Gray might as well not be playing. Add to this, Diabate, who looked fine when he joined, but is now out on loan and apart from Chilwell (who was always going to only get better) and Amartey (who’s just...ok) and I’m struggling to see any clear ‘development’. Even Maddison, clearly an extremely able young player, looks lost in his role.

I can’t agree with you mate.

Thus.

Grey frustrates me coz i think he could be great..yet he has not made progress in his decision making and his left foot crossing...and his tendency to drift.

This suggests there is training of team skills...passing etc... and fitness (though i think we look less fit than previously) and in preparing for saturday... but is time spent on the individual development needs of each player? .  Every player should have a personal plan and quantified measures so they relentlessly improve.

I have posted b4  saying grey needs time to look at vids of his touches. . to freeze the action and review his options and then see what he did...in this way he will recognise his biases . There is zero evidence that this is happening.  

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, bfox said:

people feel so disconnect to the manager and team because we dont even know what the vision is and where we are going. It doesn't help Puel telling us to lower our expectations but not actually telling us what he's trying to do. I dont even think the players know.

Except his vision and aim are clear as day - lower the average age of the squad, bring through more youth, be comfortable in possession to open teams who won't let us counter. They've been spelt out repeatedly and the ones who can't tell that's the vision are the ones with a vested interest in pretending there isn't one so they can slag Puel off

[5waller5]

11 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

How was Chilwell always going to get better? Last Summer half our fans thought he was Championship standard. He made loads of mistakes. Unfair to take any credit away from Puel.

I tend to agree it's wrong to pick and choose players to suit an argument - if some improve then list them, but the list of players that haven't improved will easily be longer for me.

 

Also I's really not sure "half our fans" thought he was championship standard? I thought the majority thought he was a great prospect

[Illusion35]

I think the bond is very important and I don’t think Puel can turn it around. I just don’t find him inspiring and I think that’s an important part of the managers role, to inspire others. I just can’t like him and I have tried to see the good e.g. developing young players but I agree with other posters questioning this. 

 

I don’t agree that the majority of fans have over inflated expectations following the title win, I think that most realise that was a once in a lifetime thing. Nor do I think the majority of fans are obsessed with league position, although I’d love to see some European football again one day.

 

I think most just want to be able to enjoy watching our team play football, win or lose and that certainly was not the case today! Players seem to have no passion/desire and no idea what they’re meant to be doing.  It’s not about a particular system for me, although I miss the fast exciting counter attack style. Puel’s style is boring and the players either don’t understand it or aren’t capable of playing it. We must have had 80% possession in the second half today but don’t know what to do with it. I don’t want to watch slow sideways passing when we are losing the game and the clock is ticking down. 

 

Puel hasn’t lost my confidence, he simply never gained it. I’ve never heard the fans sing his name. Time to give someone with a bit more personality and passion a go. And a better grasp of English wouldn’t go amiss! 

[Dames]

6 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Except his vision and aim are clear as day - lower the average age of the squad, bring through more youth, be comfortable in possession to open teams who won't let us counter. They've been spelt out repeatedly and the ones who can't tell that's the vision are the ones with a vested interest in pretending there isn't one so they can slag Puel off

We aren’t comfortable in possession and we certainly do not open up teams who dont let us counter.

 

Yes we do have a lot of the ball for periods in games but we really don’t do much with it, its all sideways, backwards or a hopeless floated cross to a maximum of 2 people shorter than 6 foot in the box. On top of that how many times do we also needlessly give the ball away? The team arent comfortable with the ball, they are scared with it hence all the safety.

Edited 12 January 2019 by Dames

[brucey]

6 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Does he?

Fair play, he PLAYS them, but is that the same as ‘developing’ them?

Personally, I think Ndidi and Nacho have gone downhill. They looked better players when they joined us?

Maguire hasn’t really improved. He’s stayed about the same. And Gray might as well not be playing. Add to this, Diabate, who looked fine when he joined, but is now out on loan and apart from Chilwell (who was always going to only get better) and Amartey (who’s just...ok) and I’m struggling to see any clear ‘development’. Even Maddison, clearly an extremely able young player, looks lost in his role.

I can’t agree with you mate.

Playing the kids is a very large part of developing them. Most managers won't play them much, if at all.

Ricardo, Chilwell and Choudhury have improved massively this season.

Maguire has improved slightly, he was at fault for a fair few goals in the first couple months under Shakey. He still makes a fair number of mistakes but less so.

Ndidi and Gray are about the same as when they joined. They hadn't improved under the last 2 managers either.

Amartey hasn't had a sustained run to make a proper judgement, but there was clearly a plan to develop him as a RB.

Nacho improved towards end of last season and has regressed this season, but he's one of those 'confidence players' just like Musa was.

Maddison's hot headedness has contributed to his dip in form.

Diabate has never shown much IMO.

 

But who knows. Maybe I'm just making excuses for him because I think having a manager who is willing to play the kids is so rare and valuable these days.

[5waller5]

2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Except his vision and aim are clear as day - lower the average age of the squad, bring through more youth, be comfortable in possession to open teams who won't let us counter. They've been spelt out repeatedly and the ones who can't tell that's the vision are the ones with a vested interest in pretending there isn't one so they can slag Puel off

They've been spelt out yes.

 

And average age of squad is certainly going down. I applaud him for playing the youngsters and signing young talent.

 

But honestly have you seen any evidence of a single tactic or pattern of play that opens up a team that play deep? I haven't, and in 18 months I'd expect to see some progress on that front. Not all the time, just flashes of it happening, some inconsistent progress perhaps. But there isn't any, there is consistent negativity and no plan to break down a team beyond crossing a ball into an empty box and hoping for the best!

 

[SecretPro]

4 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Except his vision and aim are clear as day - lower the average age of the squad, bring through more youth, be comfortable in possession to open teams who won't let us counter. They've been spelt out repeatedly and the ones who can't tell that's the vision are the ones with a vested interest in pretending there isn't one so they can slag Puel off

But that's not really vision, that should be the aim of all managers/teams and is just part of the job. The vision should define a goal/end point, and with Puel laughing about how ridiculous it is to believe we can be top 6, I am questioning the ultimate vision and aspirations. Besides, he may like playing youth but it's hapless if you dont develop and play to their strengths. Ndidi looks a shadow of his former self, Gray has made backward steps and Maddisons previously exciting brand off football appears to have already been tamed to a dull sideways pass. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pertaining to be wholly in the Puel out camp, but this mythspreading and mudslinging works both ways and I'm sorry, but playing with youth is neither a vision or visionary. 

[UniFox21]

1 hour ago, bfox said:

people feel so disconnect to the manager and team because we dont even know what the vision is and where we are going. It doesn't help Puel telling us to lower our expectations but not actually telling us what he's trying to do. I dont even think the players know.

Which is fair enough given the context was people wanting us to challenge United for 6th. 

He said we can't challenge financially with the big 6 or even some of those behind us.

He also said he was building the team with young, talented players. 

[5waller5]

2 minutes ago, brucey said:

Playing the kids is a very large part of developing them. Most managers won't play them much, if at all.

Ricardo, Chilwell and Choudhury have improved massively this season.

Maguire has improved slightly, he was at fault for a fair few goals in the first couple months under Shakey. He still makes a fair number of mistakes but less so.

Ndidi and Gray are about the same as when they joined. They hadn't improved under the last 2 managers either.

Amartey hasn't had a sustained run to make a proper judgement, but there was clearly a plan to develop him as a RB.

Nacho improved towards end of last season and has regressed this season, but he's one of those 'confidence players' just like Musa was.

Maddison's hot headedness has contributed to his dip in form.

Diabate has never shown much IMO.

 

But who knows. Maybe I'm just making excuses for him because I think having a manager who is willing to play the kids is so rare and valuable these days.

 

Maybe you are, but I'm with you it's great to have a manager that is willing to play the youngsters ..... I just wish he was doing so in a free flowing fast attacking style!

[lcfcbluearmy]

11 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Except his vision and aim are clear as day - lower the average age of the squad, bring through more youth, be comfortable in possession to open teams who won't let us counter. They've been spelt out repeatedly and the ones who can't tell that's the vision are the ones with a vested interest in pretending there isn't one so they can slag Puel off

Having a vision is one thing being able to implement it is completely different and I’m not sure Puel is the man to be able to do this

[5waller5]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

But that's not really vision, that should be the aim of all managers/teams and is just part of the job. The vision should define a goal/end point, and with Puel laughing about how ridiculous it is to believe we can be top 6, I am questioning the ultimate vision and aspirations. Besides, he may like playing youth but it's hapless if you dont develop and play to their strengths. Ndidi looks a shadow of his former self, Gray has made backward steps and Maddisons previously exciting brand off football appears to have already been tamed to a dull sideways pass. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pertaining to be wholly in the Puel out camp, but this mythspreading and mudslinging works both ways and I'm sorry, but playing with youth is neither a vision or visionary. 

It's a very good point ..... with Claudio it was finish with 40 points, then get more points than the first half of the season, then let's finish it ...... It was unusual to have a manager with such clear and defined goals as they could have been used against him if he didn't achieve them.

 

But with Claude it's the opposite - don't be daft we can't achieve that ..... I wonder what he is saying to the players about what is the aim?

 

[turtmcfly]

2 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

But that's not really vision, that should be the aim of all managers/teams and is just part of the job. The vision should define a goal/end point, and with Puel laughing about how ridiculous it is to believe we can be top 6, I am questioning the ultimate vision and aspirations. Besides, he may like playing youth but it's hapless if you dont develop and play to their strengths. Ndidi looks a shadow of his former self, Gray has made backward steps and Maddisons previously exciting brand off football appears to have already been tamed to a dull sideways pass. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pertaining to be wholly in the Puel out camp, but this mythspreading and mudslinging works both ways and I'm sorry, but playing with youth is neither a vision or visionary. 

If your argument is strong enough you don't need to exaggerate.

[Pst]

1 hour ago, 5waller5 said:

Remember the great days when we were "in it together"?

 

The Great escape season under NP and of course the most amazing season ever under Claudio.

 

Feels so long ago doesn't it? Why does it feel so different? 

 

For me, under NP and CR we could see an action plan, we could see tactics, we could see new moves from the training ground, we had a manager with a vision. In short we could see the intent and could believe in it being successful, we could see progress, we could back the manager and club with extra enthusiasm. We bought into the dream (and the dream happened).

 

All I see under Puel is a clueless approach to attacking the opposition, it's not improving, we aren't breaking teams down or creating good chances. I read the forums and see fans divided, criticising different players, systems, formations, searching for the magic answer why we look so clueless.

 

As fans we can't get behind Claude's style of play, so the atmosphere is deteriorating, attendances will follow, and the decline will result in the best players leaving, unable to attract new talent, and quickly we'll be looking back on our time in the Premier league.

 

We used to be "in it together" ...... Club / Fans /  Management / Board / Players ..... Puel is breaking that bond with negative uninspiring football giving us nothing to be excited by, nothing to "back", nothing to be proud of.

 

The big question for the board, and reason for new thread, is.....

 

Is that bond necessary?

If it is, can Claude turn it around?

Is league position more important than "being in it together"?

Is style of play important?

 

 

Mate, you used to slag Pearson off all the time. In it together, alright then chief 

[5waller5]

Just now, Pst said:

Mate, you used to slag Pearson off all the time. In it together, alright then chief 

Partially true!

 

I LOVED Pearson during his first spell. I didn't think it was a great idea to have him back as i thought we'd started to transition to a style that would have been reversed by him - which it was.

 

He did build good infrastructure and he built team spirit. What i used to disagree with (don't think i slagged him off, just disagreed with him and his stubbornness) was his long ball tactics, and lack of creativity.

 

Maybe there's a theme - i just crave exciting creative football!!!

 

Glad you remember my posts from years ago though, I'm genuinely flattered!

[Pst]

3 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

Partially true!

 

I LOVED Pearson during his first spell. I didn't think it was a great idea to have him back as i thought we'd started to transition to a style that would have been reversed by him - which it was.

 

He did build good infrastructure and he built team spirit. What i used to disagree with (don't think i slagged him off, just disagreed with him and his stubbornness) was his long ball tactics, and lack of creativity.

 

Maybe there's a theme - i just crave exciting creative football!!!

 

Glad you remember my posts from years ago though, I'm genuinely flattered!

You slagged him off first time round too, but it’s cool. Btw I just remember your username as it reminds me of Rik Waller tbh

Edited 12 January 2019 by Pst

[5waller5]

Just now, Pst said:

You slagged him off first time round too, but it’s cool. Btw I just remember your username as it reminds me of Rik Waller tbh

Wrong there I'm afraid. I was his biggest fan first time around.

[Pst]

3 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

Wrong there I'm afraid. I was his biggest fan first time around.

I doubt that. As if he did something wrong the second time round though....

[foxinsocks]

19 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

...

But with Claude it's the opposite - don't be daft we can't achieve that ..... I wonder what he is saying to the players about what is the aim?

 

If he said that then i would fire him right now

(Ok i know its a big ask and there should be realistic medium term goals. .)... but this show how little he understands about players and fans ... Thats right claud ...crush our dreams. .. no hi quality player will get on your bus. ... we more than any other club know that dreams can come true.

Watford fans said thank vichai for allowing us to dream

Edited 12 January 2019 by foxinsocks

[5waller5]

3 minutes ago, Pst said:

I doubt that. As if he did something wrong the second time round though....

No need to doubt it - I'm telling you the facts.

[whoareyaaa]

10 minutes ago, Pst said:

You slagged him off first time round too, but it’s cool. Btw I just remember your username as it reminds me of Rik Waller tbh

think your on about Waller54

[Pst]

Just now, whoareyaaa said:

think your on about Waller54

No, that’s weller54 mate.