The Politics Thread 2019

[Jon the Hat]

29 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

How's the move to Australia coming along, Jon?

Slowly!  Housing market is crap and I need to sell.  There is a very similar thread to this on my Oz migration forum, lots of Poms debating Brexit from afar.  If anything more vitriolic from those who left decades ago.

 

Australian politics are much worse than British. 

Edited 24 July 2019 by Jon the Hat

[Foxin_Mad]

22 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

I am sorry,but Johnson and Corbyn are prime examples,of what's wrong in British politics... with non committal UK,on home and the foreign front.

How convenient we have an excuse,now instead of blaming the EU, we can ditch all the blame on the Brexit issue...

We/you have some good honest,worthy

Backbenchers( always have) but the front liners have created their own platform,of incompetent,untrustworthy,

unacceptable,bowl of political dishwater.

I hated Thatcher,Major was a fit in,

Blair a total contradiction of UK Labour socialist....and no I wouldn't want their like again,but...!!! in someways I wouldn't be so disenchanted with some of the old Thatcher's cabinet in place.

Plus a big failing as always been looking at the position of PM,or party leaders..

In a democracy,they are just tools,spokesperson for their party and proposed mandate..not dictators,not No1s,not presidents...One of Thatcher's downfalls out of many...

God, she with oppo-Kinnock,maybe even Blair would of

Chewed up Boris and Corbyn and spat them out for the worms...

 

For me it's embarrasing having Boris for a PM.  The UK can't have the hypocrisy,

of demeaning Trump,while lauding Boris....

I just hope UK can find some good businessmen with the Entrenpeurs logic

Mental strength and competence.That

outweighs and outrides the Political inapptitude of present Uk-politics...

 

I don't know enough about Boris to really comment on him as a leader. Corbyn on the other hand is a disaster for the Labour party, Blair showed them the only way to get elected was to be more centre ground, Corbyn has taken them back to the 1970/80s or hard left stoicism. Socialism or attempts at being socialist are the reasons why we are in such a mess today, you cant spend money you don't have, you cant accommodate people you don't have the wealth to accommodate, you can not expect the rich to pick up the tab of unlimited spending. 

 

I think at present we don't know what Boris is going to do, yes he appears a buffoon. Perhaps we need to judge him in a years time, he hasn't even picked his cabinet yet. 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Slowly!  Housing market is crap and I need to sell.  There is a very similar thread to this on my Oz migration forum, lots of Poms debating Brexit from afar.  If anything more vitriolic from those who left decades ago.

 

Australian politics are much worse than British. 

 

Where did you decide on eventually?

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Where did you decide on eventually?

Perth unless a job comes up with my company and they relocate me.  Which is very unlikely.

[ozleicester]

11 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Slowly!  Housing market is crap and I need to sell.  There is a very similar thread to this on my Oz migration forum, lots of Poms debating Brexit from afar.  If anything more vitriolic from those who left decades ago.

 

Australian politics are much worse than British. 

Perth property Market is the worst it has been for probably 12 years... great time to buy!

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

Perth property Market is the worst it has been for probably 12 years... great time to buy!

Yes... I am banking on that to compensate for the crap price I am going to get for my place.

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Perth unless a job comes up with my company and they relocate me.  Which is very unlikely.

 

Oh, right.

 

I'm flying out to Perth in a couple of months to hike the Bibbulmun Track - I'll ask around and see if I can find you a new butler...

[Jon the Hat]

18 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Oh, right.

 

I'm flying out to Perth in a couple of months to hike the Bibbulmun Track - I'll ask around and see if I can find you a new butler...

If you want a job Bucey you just have to ask!

 

That sounds cool.  Take sunscreen and hat and a stick to hit the snakes with.

Edited 24 July 2019 by Jon the Hat

[lifted*fox]

2 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

 If we want a return to the 'good old days' then we need a PM who will put our country first, who will not be bullied by unions, we need to become competitive again. We still have the skills, the minds and punch way above our weight globally. We do need to believe in ourselves and cut the negativity. If people work hard at school and work they can still become something. There are plenty of countries where that is not the case. 

 

The UK is entirely made up of service industries now - we're not manufacturing and we're not going to go back to manufacturing goods / parts / items that can be bought in from elsewhere cheaper. Unless all of a sudden everyone wants to start paying double the price for everything again? Everyone loves to talk a big game about belief, hope, not being bullied, throwing our weight about on the global stage but let's see people put their money where their mouth is when their food shopping cost is doubled, when clothes cost three times more because they're UK made.

 

We love that little stamp - 'Made in Britain' - you know what it means? Open your wallet bitch, you're paying premium because we made it up the road. We pay our workers £2000 a month instead of £200 a month. We have high rents, high material costs, etc. 

 

I know because I've spent the last 15 years importing and building / final-step manufacturing items that come from China and the absolutely INSANE cost gap between 'uk-made' and 'china-made' (globalisation) is HUGE. 

 

The only industries where we still manufacture in here are upping and leaving because we're closing our borders, tariffs will raise and any benefit of free-movement of goods will be gone down the toilet. 

 

Hope, belief and all that daily-mail unicorn bullshit isn't worth **** all when you look at the cold hard facts. 

 

 

Edited 24 July 2019 by lifted*fox

[Innovindil]

Just now, lifted*fox said:

 

The UK is entirely made up of service industries now - we're not manufacturing and we're not going to go back to manufacturing goods / parts / items that can be bought in from elsewhere cheaper. Unless all of a sudden everyone wants to start paying double the price for everything again? Everyone loves to talk a big game about belief, hope, not being bullied, throwing our weight about on the global stage but let's see people put their money where their mouth is when their food shopping cost is doubled, when clothes cost three times more because they're UK made.

 

We love that little stamp - 'Made in Britain' - you know what it means? Open your wallet bitch, you're paying premium because we made it up the road. We pay our workers £2000 a month instead of £200 a month. We have high rents, high material costs, etc. 

 

I know because I've spent the last 15 years importing and building / final-step manufacturing items that come from China and the absolutely INSANE cost gap between 'uk-made' and 'china-made' (globalisation) is HUGE. 

 

The only industries where we manufacture in here are upping and leaving because we're closing our borders, tariffs will raise and any benefit of free-movement of goods will be gone down the toilet. 

 

Hope, belief and all that daily-mail unicorn bullshit isn't worth **** all when you look at the cold hard facts. 

 

Me and my dad literally do this for a living. And we supply countries all over the globe, including countries that make cheap tat but come to us for quality. And considering our order book is backlogged for what seems like forever I'd say there's still a market out there for it, even with the sky falling/demons walking the earth/zombie apocalypse and what have you. 

[lifted*fox]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Me and my dad literally do this for a living. And we supply countries all over the globe, including countries that make cheap tat but come to us for quality. And considering our order book is backlogged for what seems like forever I'd say there's still a market out there for it, even with the sky falling/demons walking the earth/zombie apocalypse and what have you. 

 

of course there is still some manufacturing in the UK. it's nowhere near our main industry any more though and it isn't going to be again. there is limited requirement for certain uk manufactured goods that certain companies want for confidence / warranty / quality and they will pay for it. estee lauder pay double for my products because we offer European warranty and that is worth more to them than cheap chinese imports. 

 

are we going to start up the hosiery industries of Leicester again by leaving the EU? no, because your average worker who wants to go into primark and buy 3 pairs of pants for £3 isn't suddenly going to want to pay £15 for 3 pairs because they were UK made. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Slowly!  Housing market is crap and I need to sell.  There is a very similar thread to this on my Oz migration forum, lots of Poms debating Brexit from afar.  If anything more vitriolic from those who left decades ago.

 

Australian politics are much worse than British. 

If Australian politics are anything like their American equivalent (and others likely know much more about Aussies than I do) then I'd agree that such politics are much more personal and confrontational than their UK counterpart.

 

As much as Brexit has drawn a massive dividing line between people in the UK, IMO there are still places where the discussion is much less civil.

[fuchsntf]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I don't know enough about Boris to really comment on him as a leader. Corbyn on the other hand is a disaster for the Labour party, Blair showed them the only way to get elected was to be more centre ground, Corbyn has taken them back to the 1970/80s or hard left stoicism. Socialism or attempts at being socialist are the reasons why we are in such a mess today, you cant spend money you don't have, you cant accommodate people you don't have the wealth to accommodate, you can not expect the rich to pick up the tab of unlimited spending. 

 

I think at present we don't know what Boris is going to do, yes he appears a buffoon. Perhaps we need to judge him in a years time, he hasn't even picked his cabinet yet. 

I can't say more..you seem prepare to accept the buffoon,just to see if he stays a Buffon,or gets a magic kiss and turns out to be the prince of politics...

The guy was and is a disaster...

According to one's political stance or sympathies,you might lean left,right or center.....Of any party..!! Like Boris I won't waste any time on trying to have an intelligent conversation on Corbyn.

Because you see 2 incompetents put in front of you,doesnt mean you have to chose one,just for the sake of it...

I come from the socialist side of the fence,but there is not one single top

Positioned labour politician I would vote for to lead the scouts let alone the country. Some maybe good/bad local politicians I can't judge.

I do know there has been more than a couple, IMO good politicians,male & female ,who have pulled away from the frontline,because of their disappointment on the path their party seemed to be heading..That can also be said for the conservative party.

Chaos has been prominent,in both leading parties,one has shown they alone haven't had ownership of total disorganisation,plus for 20xx politics

Both parties,hidden or sheltered racism,or other negative discriminating

ISMs.

I truelly have hated each parties total ignorance of other peoples..the

British Anglo-Saxon,various immigrants, ethnic groups,through our society.

 

Since I was very young,and with all difficulties,I sympathised with both the

Palestinian problems and the Israel difficulties,now both sides of UK politics,have shown incompetencies and lack of knowing what diplomacy is all about!!

anti-Semitism,Islamphobia,hidden white superiority sympathies,and even anti-white European values.  Get their airings through various media outlets according to agendas,supported and secretly encouraged from within the UK-political classes. Johnson & Corbyn and some of their same party compatriots have shown their incompetent lack of diplomacy..one side deep in their party souls are full of it...And travelling WWide in the circles I have,one has seen various 'isms' ride and prominently pop up their ugly heads in political circles...

Including In help/charity organisations,

When high level politicians have jump on the boat...

Because both Corbyn and Boris have been registered in people's minds as buffoons,doesn't mean the other is slightly less a blue-arsed one!!

Because you/me or any other want to prove where our political sympathies lie.

The UKs-electorate are at present bereith in this period of years central to our needs,of any decent ,diplomatic, stuffed up politician.The women quota,

Also doesn't seem to have changed it one iota. They still argue and discuss on the male plane,instead of using their own logic...

That someone can even defend either of the ,two,will remain a mystery that only can be paralleled by Sherlock Holmes case deductions..

 

[Innovindil]

10 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

of course there is still some manufacturing in the UK.

 

22 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

The UK is entirely made up of service industries now

All I wanted tbh. There was, is, and always will be a market for UK manufactured goods, ironically because brits do it well. 

 

 

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

Australian politics are much worse than British. 

Im interested in how you define worse?

 

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If Australian politics are anything like their American equivalent (and others likely know much more about Aussies than I do) then I'd agree that such politics are much more personal and confrontational than their UK counterpart.

 

As much as Brexit has drawn a massive dividing line between people in the UK, IMO there are still places where the discussion is much less civil.

Aussie politics is not really like USA at all.. more similar to UK, only similarity ti USA is that Murdoch and his right wing mafia run the place

[Foxin_Mad]

26 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

The UK is entirely made up of service industries now - we're not manufacturing and we're not going to go back to manufacturing goods / parts / items that can be bought in from elsewhere cheaper. Unless all of a sudden everyone wants to start paying double the price for everything again? Everyone loves to talk a big game about belief, hope, not being bullied, throwing our weight about on the global stage but let's see people put their money where their mouth is when their food shopping cost is doubled, when clothes cost three times more because they're UK made.

 

We love that little stamp - 'Made in Britain' - you know what it means? Open your wallet bitch, you're paying premium because we made it up the road. We pay our workers £2000 a month instead of £200 a month. We have high rents, high material costs, etc. 

 

I know because I've spent the last 15 years importing and building / final-step manufacturing items that come from China and the absolutely INSANE cost gap between 'uk-made' and 'china-made' (globalisation) is HUGE. 

 

The only industries where we still manufacture in here are upping and leaving because we're closing our borders, tariffs will raise and any benefit of free-movement of goods will be gone down the toilet. 

 

Hope, belief and all that daily-mail unicorn bullshit isn't worth **** all when you look at the cold hard facts. 

 

 

I am not saying we should make everything here, we cant. We should, can and do make some premium quality British products that sell globally, ARM based processors for example were designed in the UK and used on every single mobile device globally. Stoke-on-Trent still produces some fine pottery. We should focus on premium quality products. Much like Germany does, German cars are on everyone's shopping list, they are not the cheapest but they are well made premium products (generally). Germany is immensely successful at manufacturing, we could do more.

 

We are of course excellent at offering a globally renowned service industries, we are a hub of research and development in many sectors. There are certainly areas we can investigate further. 

 

14 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

of course there is still some manufacturing in the UK. it's nowhere near our main industry any more though and it isn't going to be again. there is limited requirement for certain uk manufactured goods that certain companies want for confidence / warranty / quality and they will pay for it. estee lauder pay double for my products because we offer European warranty and that is worth more to them than cheap chinese imports. 

 

are we going to start up the hosiery industries of Leicester again by leaving the EU? no, because your average worker who wants to go into primark and buy 3 pairs of pants for £3 isn't suddenly going to want to pay £15 for 3 pairs because they were UK made. 

No one says it should be, it should be factor in our economy, and perhaps with some drift away from the service sector is needed and has been happening. 

 

People will pay more if the quality is better and it lasts longer like German Cars. Also if the attitudes of people are changed to buy British, again the Germans buy a lot of German products where possible. Ethically getting 3 pants for £3 from someone paid 20p a week in poor conditions isn't great.

 

We need to address our double standards a bit. On one hand we want socialism and fairness, on the other hand we are supporting a globalisation model that drives inequality and poor conditions in poorer countries, it lowers standards in our own country.

 

Now of course we don't need to not be in the EU to do some of these things as Germany proves, the country has made a choice to leave. For me the EU could be a phenomenal thing, instead is used as a project for a United Europe. Since more than the Western countries became members of the EU the massive disparity in living standards meant it was never going to work - if you are a polish graduate would you stay at home and get paid £400 a month to work in your area of expertise or do you come to Britain and get paid 3 times as much to do any job? Its a no brainer and exactly why the project and the Euro in its current form will fail. The economic disparity is too large between the likes of Germany and Romania for example. 

[lifted*fox]

11 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 

 All I wanted tbh. There was, is, and always will be a market for UK manufactured goods, ironically because brits do it well. 

 

 

 

yeah, my use of the word 'entirely' in the second quote wasn't correct lol.

 

of course there will always be room for some UK manufacturing - there are certain things we excel at - but not much anymore. There's a reason every other building in major cities are either coffee shops, restaurants, hotels or some other leisure / hospitality type outfit. You visit proper manufacturing cities in China, India, etc. and every other building is another small manufacturer - some entire streets all making the same product, different companies. 

 

The idea that foxin_mad or whoever is trying to sell that if we believe hard enough we can bring all that industry back to the UK is wrong and it'll continue to be wrong until people either ditch throwaway culture and be prepared to pay double / triple for UK manufactured goods that 'last' (supposedly, not always true). just like Trump wants to reopen the coal mines - it ain't gonna happen. We need to focus on what new industry we can excel in moving forward - not looking back over our shoulders.

 

If people like Boris Johnson were shouting about training people from school to be leaders in green energy / manufacturers of solar panels, wind-farms / leading scientists in renewables, whatever; then maybe there'd be something to get behind. All this chest-beating and blowing hot air about the 'good old days' is just bluster and it only appeals to those not intelligent enough to understand that our future doesn't lie in the 'good old days' - it lies in moving on, moving forward and excelling at something new. 

[Vacamion]

 

It’s hard to believe that a Prime Minister who has been hounded out of office by her divided party, who is widely considered to be the worst in living memory, just handed the leader of the opposition his baws at her last PMQs.

 

Agree with Corbyn or not, he’s bloody useless.

 

A weak opposition is one of the reasons we are in such a mess.

 

Shame.

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Im interested in how you define worse?

 

Aussie politics is not really like USA at all.. more similar to UK, only similarity ti USA is that Murdoch and his right wing mafia run the place

 

I have no idea why that quote is attributed to me, mate, but I didn't say it.

[lifted*fox]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I am not saying we should make everything here, we cant. We should, can and do make some premium quality British products that sell globally, ARM based processors for example were designed in the UK and used on every single mobile device globally. Stoke-on-Trent still produces some fine pottery. We should focus on premium quality products. Much like Germany does, German cars are on everyone's shopping list, they are not the cheapest but they are well made premium products (generally). Germany is immensely successful at manufacturing, we could do more.

 

We are of course excellent at offering a globally renowned service industries, we are a hub of research and development in many sectors. There are certainly areas we can investigate further. 

 

No one says it should be, it should be factor in our economy, and perhaps with some drift away from the service sector is needed and has been happening. 

 

People will pay more if the quality is better and it lasts longer like German Cars. Also if the attitudes of people are changed to buy British, again the Germans buy a lot of German products where possible. Ethically getting 3 pants for £3 from someone paid 20p a week in poor conditions isn't great.

 

We need to address our double standards a bit. On one hand we want socialism and fairness, on the other hand we are supporting a globalisation model that drives inequality and poor conditions in poorer countries, it lowers standards in our own country.

 

Now of course we don't need to not be in the EU to do some of these things as Germany proves, the country has made a choice to leave. For me the EU could be a phenomenal thing, instead is used as a project for a United Europe. Since more than the Western countries became members of the EU the massive disparity in living standards meant it was never going to work - if you are a polish graduate would you stay at home and get paid £400 a month to work in your area of expertise or do you come to Britain and get paid 3 times as much to do any job? Its a no brainer and exactly why the project and the Euro in its current form will fail. The economic disparity is too large between the likes of Germany and Romania for example. 

 

but fella, you use german cars as an example - we already make those here. and the japanese ones. we use our british hands to manufacture these for people already and brexit is stopping that. 

 

there aren't any big UK car brands any more aside from Jag/LR and they're talking about leaving too because we need friction-less borders. 

 

most old UK car brands died a death because they were undesirable and couldn't keep up with the designs and ideas from other countries. 

 

are you proposing we somehow build cars here from scratch, under a new, non-existing desirable brand (or bring back old ones from the dead - like MG, mini/metro, etc.) - make all of the parts here as well? we can't do that. that's why big car manufacturers are leaving because building a car in the modern era requires collaboration amongst designers / parts manufacturers and assemblers across multiple countries.

 

i understand you're not fully pro brexit ra ra ra but you need to think about those kinds of arguments. we aren't going to just hope and believe and suddenly come up with a bunch of new car brands / identities and build it here from start to finish. that isn't how it works. when it does work like that (almost, even Jag/LR import a huge number of parts) it makes it expensive and mostly unobtainable for the every day working person. 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Oh, right.

 

I'm flying out to Perth in a couple of months to hike the Bibbulmun Track - I'll ask around and see if I can find you a new butler...

Knowing what you have told me over your travels,you will enjoy this one...

Something different...

I did part of this area before the trail was

Even Named or established...We went out,with an indigenous ranger into the nature for a few days..with Australian

and Irish friends...it was some years later. I was told there is now an official trail...strange,strange funny world..

Kalamunda will satisfy and water your trekking fantasies.I can't say now how it is,but it is still wild..just more signs and

Info.and 1-2 ranger stations.Then nothing..

Walking the coastal part breathtaking..And no we didn't do the ,,

1000+km.We were 5-6 days away..and met ,spent some time with some indeginous folk...slept under the stars.

Probably forgot more than I can remember,one whole day there was a wind storm...We had to be very carefull of our water..

[ozleicester]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I have no idea why that quote is attributed to me, mate, but I didn't say it.

 next youll be shouting fake news!!

 

I dont know how i did that

[Buce]

1 minute ago, fuchsntf said:

Knowing what you have told me over your travels,you will enjoy this one...

Something different...

I did part of this area before the trail was

Even Named or established...We went out,with an indigenous ranger into the nature for a few days..with Australian

and Irish friends...it was some years later. I was told there is now an official trail...strange,strange funny world..

Kalamunda will satisfy and water your trekking fantasies.I can't say now how it is,but it is still wild..just more signs and

Info.and 1-2 ranger stations.Then nothing..

Walking the coastal part breathtaking..And no we didn't do the ,,

1000+km.We were 5-6 days away..and met ,spent some time with some indeginous folk...slept under the stars.

Probably forgot more than I can remember,one whole day there was a wind storm...We had to be very carefull of our water..

 

That sounds awesome, mate.

 

I'll try and upload some photos for you when I get the chance.

[Jon the Hat]

34 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Im interested in how you define worse?

 

Aussie politics is not really like USA at all.. more similar to UK, only similarity ti USA is that Murdoch and his right wing mafia run the place

A good trick that.  I find when I read abut or see AU politics, they are more argumentative, more confrontational and more blustery bullshit than here.  As you say the Murdoch mafia is much worse.

[Foxin_Mad]

2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

but fella, you use german cars as an example - we already make those here. and the japanese ones. we use our british hands to manufacture these for people already and brexit is stopping that. 

 

there aren't any big UK car brands any more aside from Jag/LR and they're talking about leaving too because we need friction-less borders. 

 

most old UK car brands died a death because they were undesirable and couldn't keep up with the designs and ideas from other countries. 

 

are you proposing we somehow build cars here from scratch, under a new, non-existing desirable brand (or bring back old ones from the dead - like MG, mini/metro, etc.) - make all of the parts here as well? we can't do that. that's why big car manufacturers are leaving because building a car in the modern era requires collaboration amongst designers / parts manufacturers and assemblers across multiple countries.

 

i understand you're not fully pro brexit ra ra ra but you need to think about those kinds of arguments. we aren't going to just hope and believe and suddenly come up with a bunch of new car brands / identities and build it here from start to finish. that isn't how it works. when it does work like that (almost, even Jag/LR import a huge number of parts) it makes it expensive and mostly unobtainable for the every day working person. 

I do understand those issues.  Obviously we still don't know what is going to happen yet.

 

A no deal Brexit is not particularly favourable particularly in the short term. Some manufacturers will pull out, any strong government needs to make it clear that such action will not be tolerated and the sale of their products will be discouraged in whatever way legally possible. There are alternatives. 

 

The government need to come up with solutions to these problems by facilitating JIT supply chains, which can be done. This is the task and what Boris needs to be judged on. 

 

The EU isn't the be all and end all. Ford moved its production to Turkey when we were in the EU, all the French owned car companies moved their brands out of the UK to France to protect French jobs, BMW screwed Rover and sold it to some crooks. Due to EU trade deals with Japan, Nissan no longer need to manufacture in the UK, same with Honda (this isn't Brexit). 

 

At the end of the day we would need to heavily tariff all imported cars. I am sure the Chinese/Indians or Americans would happily have a few factories here if there is a market. 

 

If Boris fails at least the left can live safe in the knowledge that the Tories are consigned to history.