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The Politics Thread 2019

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14 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Well as Alf would tell you we voted to leave the eu. We didn't vote how to leave the eu. :whistle:

 

You're quite right.

 

99.9% of the referendum debate was about what sort of deal we'd leave with (in or out of SM/CU; Norway, Canada or Albania model; easy, very easy or piss-easy etc.).

But we didn't vote how to Leave, so leaving with No Deal was not specifically precluded. Nor was......

- Leaving the EU but allowing free entry to the French, allowing them to freely come in and rub garlic all over our copies of The Sun, while running around being all foreign and Muslim looking

- Digging the UK up by the foundations, towing it across the Atlantic and ramming it up Donald Trump's fat hairy orange arse....

 

Likewise, nothing undemocratic about Boris' indirectly elected status (assuming it happens tomorrow) - elected by the largest political party, then his status presumably elected indirectly as PM by Parliament tomorrow....

Juncker and Ursula von der Leyen were also chosen by a party political majority & then approved by the EU Parliament.......so Boris will have as much of a democratic mandate as Juncker or Von der Leyen....

 

:D

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3 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

The economic policies of the current Labour party are an absolute car crash full stop, there are very few competent politicians on Labours front bench. For the average working person the Labour party in power at present would be a disaster, its too far left to be sustainable in the real world. Jobs and wealth would desert this country at an alarming rate.

They already have...!!..

You haven't one decent politician left on home soil. Finance experts on top jobs ,all foreigners business contracts,French or sold to some other Foreign firm. Cant even produce your own passports. Alot of civil service admin-paper work outsourced.

Ex-skilled people rather drive a bus than ,practice their skills for appittance. ..

And now Boris...too much time laughing at Corbyn,few have noticed you have had your pockets picked from within...Goodnight, godbless,

Lights have been already extinguished,!!    I never thought I would feel so negative on my country of birth...Never thought we would see the selling out of the top British-product...it's people,both Anglo-Saxon and it's modern hard working immigrants..Sold down the drain more in the last 15 years,than ever..!!

Boris is a good fit....

 

 

Edited by fuchsntf
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1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Likewise, nothing undemocratic about Boris' indirectly elected status (assuming it happens tomorrow) - elected by the largest political party, then his status presumably elected indirectly as PM by Parliament tomorrow....

Juncker and Ursula von der Leyen were also chosen by a party political majority & then approved by the EU Parliament.......so Boris will have as much of a democratic mandate as Juncker or Von der Leyen....

 

:D

Not quite right. Firstly, von der Layen (who wasn'r a MEP) was proposed by the European Council (which took quite a long time as original candidates were rejected - the EU countries were disagreeing how the top jobs should be allocated), before being approved by EU parliament. 

 

Secondly, there is no vote in parliament on Johnson as PM - unless Labour propose a vote of no confidence, which is voted upon. His sole mandate is that of leader of the party with most seats, who have a coalition with the DUP. 

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4 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

Not quite right. Firstly, von der Layen (who wasn'r a MEP) was proposed by the European Council (which took quite a long time as original candidates were rejected - the EU countries were disagreeing how the top jobs should be allocated), before being approved by EU parliament. 

 

Secondly, there is no vote in parliament on Johnson as PM - unless Labour propose a vote of no confidence, which is voted upon. His sole mandate is that of leader of the party with most seats, who have a coalition with the DUP. 

 

Either you're too hot or it's too hot to argue, not sure which.....

 

 

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I'm intrigued/terrified to know that when it goes tits up for Boris (because Brexit is undeliverable) whether people will go even further to the right.  

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2 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Boris Johnson: The next human sacrifice to the Brexit machine

 
Ian DuntBy Ian DuntTuesday, 23 July 2019 12:44 PMFollow iandunt

They giggled and tittered in their seats. Boris Johnson was doing one of his mix-and-match after-dinner speeches. He'd won the leadership comfortably, shrugging off his rival Jeremy Hunt by a two-to-one margin. Bit of blah-this, blah-that. The usual. He'd had weeks to prepare for this, but it seemed very cobbled together. He made a gag about the word 'dude'. People seemed to like that. The crowd laughed. A certain kind of person still finds him awfully funny.

But one day soon, the laughter will stop. The Brexit machine is going to eat him alive.

In the run up to his coronation, there'd been a lot of right-wing punditry about national confidence and optimism and charisma. It sounds like the crowing of victors, but in reality it was desperation. They'd run out of answers for the questions Brexit was asking of them. So their only option was to appeal to something magical, something intangible, in the hope that its mystical quality would break the deadlock. Their castle stronghold was being overtaken by goblins, but a wizard had appeared over the crest of the hill to make them all go away.

There's nothing new in this, of course. Brexit was always defined by fantasy. That was key to winning the referendum contest. It was central to Theresa May's survival, too. She spent over a year pretending there was some vast sunlit upland just beyond the mound of the withdrawal agreement. Her premiership only really fell apart when she could no longer sustain it.

 

And then, for a few fleeting weeks, British politics came into contact with the reality of Brexit. May brought her deal back. The bleak, pulverising reality of regulatory alignment, customs controls, economic pain and political humiliation were revealed. It was like forcing vampires to stand in the sun. The Brexiters screeched and contorted. They went mad. And by the time they had darted back into the shade again, May was gone and so was her deal.

So instead they found a fantasy solution to the problem: a leadership contest. And it goes without saying that their favourite candidate was the one with the most fantasy content: Boris Johnson. The clown whose painted face sunk into his skin.

But fantasy doesn't work. It's like trying to cure cancer with Reiki. You cannot magic these problems away.

If the backstop is not in the withdrawal agreement, the EU will not sign it. If it is in the withdrawal agreement, Johnson cannot get behind it and parliament anyway will not back it. So a deal is impossible.

No-deal, on the other hand, will never pass through parliament. Nor can Johnson try to cancel parliament to get it through. Last week's vote made it clear MPs wouldn't stand for it.

Whichever way he looks, he is shackled by a deadlocked parliament. The solution is obvious: hold a general election and try to get some more loyal MPs. But he has ruled that out.

Or he could use a second referendum, but he has ruled that out too.

All the options are closed. Some are closed by reality. Others are closed by the fantasies that he peddled in order to pretend it did not exist.

So which promise does he choose to break? The promise to get rid of the backstop? Or to secure no-deal? Or to avoid an election? Or to stop a referendum? He's going to have to break one of them.

And when he does, the laughter will stop. The tittering and chortling will be gone. He'll be standing in a packed auditorium, doing one of his patched-together mock-anarchic speeches - the kind that always gets them rolling in the aisles - and there'll be stony silence.

Even May was smart enough to avoid this. Think back to her early days. For months she kept her options open. Even on ending free movement, which would later become the centrepiece of her Brexit agenda, she would say it needed to stop in its 'current form' - holding the door open for some kind of change compatible with single market membership. And then only in October 2016 did she decide on her policy and start closing down options.

That was powerfully stupid and it ended up ruining her. But you have to give her credit: It was months before she did the dimwitted self-defeating thing. Johnson did it before he even had the post.

Everything that happened before is happening again. But this time it's going to happen faster. That's the only meaningful difference.

Ian Dunt is editor of Politics.co.uk and the author of Brexit: What The Hell Happens Now?

Great surname 

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Can we just merge with the depression thread now?

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17 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

 

You mean... Like this? 

 

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/brexit-index/

 

I don't seem to remember all these huge corporations leaving the UK under the last UK Labour government, does anyone else? 

 

Corbyn, a monster who'd destroy the UK, yet when it comes down to it Brexit has clearly been significantly more damaging in terms of job losses, corporations leaving, our global reputation and standing, etc.  

 

There is no way, even under Corbyn's Labour the UK would have shit the bed like this. Things would have changed, a few wealthy people earning over 100k might lose a few more pennies, etc. I'm not even a fan but to be hysterically worried about Corbyn being in charge when you've got this current Conservative disaster playing out in the manner in which it is, is absolutely laughable.  

 

The whole 30bn or whatever it is ferry fiasco would have taken this countries homeless off the streets for a start. Jokes how anyone can defend this idiocy.  

Plenty of those 'job losses' would have occurred even without Brexit. Some of them are without a doubt due to Brexit, but the categories in which he's listing them as mean that Brexit isn't the sole reason (if one at all).

 

7 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

It really is testament to how shit Jeremy Corbyn is that he isn't a thousand miles ahead. 

It's ridiculous isn't it? Any other main party should be sailing ahead, but he seems to be losing ground slightly.

 

Edited by Leicester_Loyal
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13 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

They already have...!!..

You haven't one decent politician left on home soil. Finance experts on top jobs ,all foreigners business contracts,French or sold to some other Foreign firm. Cant even produce your own passports. Alot of civil service admin-paper work outsourced.

Ex-skilled people rather drive a bus than ,practice their skills for appittance. ..

And now Boris...too much time laughing at Corbyn,few have noticed you have had your pockets picked from within...Goodnight, godbless,

Lights have been already extinguished,!!    I never thought I would feel so negative on my country of birth...Never thought we would see the selling out of the top British-product...it's people,both Anglo-Saxon and it's modern hard working immigrants..Sold down the drain more in the last 15 years,than ever..!!

Boris is a good fit....

 

 

Its not quite that bad. The west is facing a crisis. It isn't just Britain, this is why we find so many countries turning to extremists of the left or right as people feel let down by the centre ground for whatever reason.

 

Globalisation is the reason for national decline in many countries not just Britain. 

 

We still have good politicians, we have good companies. Unfortunately a lot of our manufacturing was destroyed by unions in the 1970s, the products were crap, late and overpriced, that is why consumers went elsewhere.

 

If we want a return to the 'good old days' then we need a PM who will put our country first, who will not be bullied by unions, we need to become competitive again. We still have the skills, the minds and punch way above our weight globally. We do need to believe in ourselves and cut the negativity. If people work hard at school and work they can still become something. There are plenty of countries where that is not the case. 

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14 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

They already have...!!..

You haven't one decent politician left on home soil. Finance experts on top jobs ,all foreigners business contracts,French or sold to some other Foreign firm. Cant even produce your own passports. Alot of civil service admin-paper work outsourced.

Ex-skilled people rather drive a bus than ,practice their skills for appittance. ..

And now Boris...too much time laughing at Corbyn,few have noticed you have had your pockets picked from within...Goodnight, godbless,

Lights have been already extinguished,!!    I never thought I would feel so negative on my country of birth...Never thought we would see the selling out of the top British-product...it's people,both Anglo-Saxon and it's modern hard working immigrants..Sold down the drain more in the last 15 years,than ever..!!

Boris is a good fit....

 

 

You have been reading too much media.  This is a great country, with great people and great opportunities.  We don't need anyone to make it great "again", but we could use some self confidence after 3 years of pissing about, and also some proper conservatism, investing in Education, Health & Social Care, Policing and infrastructure.  Boris is talking all the right things; lets hope he can deliver.

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21 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Its not quite that bad. The west is facing a crisis. It isn't just Britain, this is why we find so many countries turning to extremists of the left or right as people feel let down by the centre ground for whatever reason.

 

Globalisation is the reason for national decline in many countries not just Britain. 

 

We still have good politicians, we have good companies. Unfortunately a lot of our manufacturing was destroyed by unions in the 1970s, the products were crap, late and overpriced, that is why consumers went elsewhere.

 

If we want a return to the 'good old days' then we need a PM who will put our country first, who will not be bullied by unions, we need to become competitive again. We still have the skills, the minds and punch way above our weight globally. We do need to believe in ourselves and cut the negativity. If people work hard at school and work they can still become something. There are plenty of countries where that is not the case. 

A fair proportion of modern day bullying is from the very large global conglomerates who have more money than most countries by comparison the unions are fairly toothless.

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Problem in this country is people read too much and use blind faith too little. 

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14 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Its not quite that bad. The west is facing a crisis. It isn't just Britain, this is why we find so many countries turning to extremists of the left or right as people feel let down by the centre ground for whatever reason.

 

Globalisation is the reason for national decline in many countries not just Britain. 

 

We still have good politicians, we have good companies. Unfortunately a lot of our manufacturing was destroyed by unions in the 1970s, the products were crap, late and overpriced, that is why consumers went elsewhere.

 

If we want a return to the 'good old days' then we need a PM who will put our country first, who will not be bullied by unions, we need to become competitive again. We still have the skills, the minds and punch way above our weight globally. We do need to believe in ourselves and cut the negativity. If people work hard at school and work they can still become something. There are plenty of countries where that is not the case. 

So the easy get out...

Let's compare us with other counties..

I ain't interested....!!   

It's what UK does,what and how  it sees itself developing, and what can we offer.

It's Not  about other countries.

 

I am fed up and disgusted with these false arguments..It's been the problem for years.. Politicians and I am sorry but silly voters Party supporters,telling and forcing opinions,of what the opposition can't do...instead of telling us what their

Party will do and what they have in mind to change target,and realise.

That's like a center forward,telling us what the CB is doing wrong..!!!

Lazy,irrelevant, absolutely crap statements...

Being the best in the class,of a class that can't read,write,and communicate,

Ain't worth the teachers plaudits...crap is crap,cancelled,or not met business targets ..is a failure. British politicians failed in promising and bring the people solutions on all major issues..crime,education,NHS,Brexit,

housing, controlled and fair immigration.Refugee crisis with EU...

It's not what the various opposition do or say,it's what "you" offer and will do..

Again it's not about mistakes or not even the failings,it's the non action,not-trying,and then blaming the others mentioned ideas or wordings..!!

And the electorate lap it up...!!

" It's the same the whole world over,

It's the poor that get the blame,it's the rich that get the pleasure...

ain't it all a fking shame ..!! ". 

Instead of doing we blame...!!

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23 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You have been reading too much media.  This is a great country, with great people and great opportunities.  We don't need anyone to make it great "again", but we could use some self confidence after 3 years of pissing about, and also some proper conservatism, investing in Education, Health & Social Care, Policing and infrastructure.  Boris is talking all the right things; lets hope he can deliver.

You have been conned into reading so much drivel..You keep your Boris...and wonky dreams,Nirvana will welcome you with open arms..

 

.Gud ol' fun,having a bit of political waste-ground banter...innit.!! :bounce:

I don't know what's worse ..This or the

boring topic of Maguire's transfer..

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36 minutes ago, davieG said:

A fair proportion of modern day bullying is from the very large global conglomerates who have more money than most countries by comparison the unions are fairly toothless.

To an extent I agree. The globalisation and digital world has led to huge mainly tech companies sucking up all the money and killing smaller businesses.

 

There needs to be proper taxation of the likes of Apple/Google/Amazon based on national sales. There also needs to be some kind of warehouse tax for these companies in place of business rates. 

 

The local high street needs a level playing field, they also need to be given ways to innovate and compete successfully.

 

The unions are rightly nowadays less powerful, the days where a union has the power to bring a country to its knees is not good. The railway unions are the only ones with any real power. Unfortunately they are still lead by some absolute moronic dinosaurs. 

 

Don't get me wrong I am not adverse to the idea of bargaining for workers rights in a constructive dialogue, but the people involved with sorting it out have historically been as self serving as the people running the businesses and quite frankly most union bosses are pretty vile individuals.

Edited by Foxin_Mad

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17 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

So the easy get out...

Let's compare us with other counties..

I ain't interested....!!   

It's what UK does,what and how  it sees itself developing, and what can we offer.

It's Not  about other countries.

 

I am fed up and disgusted with these false arguments..It's been the problem for years.. Politicians and I am sorry but silly voters Party supporters,telling and forcing opinions,of what the opposition can't do...instead of telling us what their

Party will do and what they have in mind to change target,and realise.

That's like a center forward,telling us what the CB is doing wrong..!!!

Lazy,irrelevant, absolutely crap statements...

Being the best in the class,of a class that can't read,write,and communicate,

Ain't worth the teachers plaudits...crap is crap,cancelled,or not met business targets ..is a failure. British politicians failed in promising and bring the people solutions on all major issues..crime,education,NHS,Brexit,

housing, controlled and fair immigration.Refugee crisis with EU...

It's not what the various opposition do or say,it's what "you" offer and will do..

Again it's not about mistakes or not even the failings,it's the non action,not-trying,and then blaming the others mentioned ideas or wordings..!!

And the electorate lap it up...!!

" It's the same the whole world over,

It's the poor that get the blame,it's the rich that get the pleasure...

ain't it all a fking shame ..!! ". 

Instead of doing we blame...!!

We don't know yet but hopefully we will soon. Boris deserves a chance now. 

 

No-one from any viewpoint can deny the last 3 years have been a complete and utter waste of time.

 

There are many fantastic things about the UK, we still punch well above our weight Internationally for a small Island in the Atlantic. We are still vastly successful at tech/innovation/medicines on a global scale. Manufacturing has been increasing since 2010. We have low unemployment, low inflation free health care, free education, we are free, we have clean air. If you work hard you can get a good jobs, a nice house a nice car. The possibilities are endless and will continue to be so. 

 

I think now we have to be confident in Britain, we need to get on with whatever it is we are doing. The uncertainty and dithering is the worst thing. At least if we know the path we can begin to deal with the consequences. 

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Just now, Foxin_Mad said:

We don't know yet but hopefully we will soon. Boris deserves a chance now. 

 

No-one from any viewpoint can deny the last 3 years have been a complete and utter waste of time.

 

There are many fantastic things about the UK, we still punch well above our weight Internationally for a small Island in the Atlantic. We are still vastly successful at tech/innovation/medicines on a global scale. Manufacturing has been increasing since 2010. We have low unemployment, low inflation free health care, free education, we are free, we have clean air. If you work hard you can get a good jobs, a nice house a nice car. The possibilities are endless and will continue to be so. 

 

I think now we have to be confident in Britain, we need to get on with whatever it is we are doing. The uncertainty and dithering is the worst thing. At least if we know the path we can begin to deal with the consequences. 

I am sorry,but Johnson and Corbyn are prime examples,of what's wrong in British politics... with non committal UK,on home and the foreign front.

How convenient we have an excuse,now instead of blaming the EU, we can ditch all the blame on the Brexit issue...

We/you have some good honest,worthy

Backbenchers( always have) but the front liners have created their own platform,of incompetent,untrustworthy,

unacceptable,bowl of political dishwater.

I hated Thatcher,Major was a fit in,

Blair a total contradiction of UK Labour socialist....and no I wouldn't want their like again,but...!!! in someways I wouldn't be so disenchanted with some of the old Thatcher's cabinet in place.

Plus a big failing as always been looking at the position of PM,or party leaders..

In a democracy,they are just tools,spokesperson for their party and proposed mandate..not dictators,not No1s,not presidents...One of Thatcher's downfalls out of many...

God, she with oppo-Kinnock,maybe even Blair would of

Chewed up Boris and Corbyn and spat them out for the worms...

 

For me it's embarrasing having Boris for a PM.  The UK can't have the hypocrisy,

of demeaning Trump,while lauding Boris....

I just hope UK can find some good businessmen with the Entrenpeurs logic

Mental strength and competence.That

outweighs and outrides the Political inapptitude of present Uk-politics...

 

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On 22/07/2019 at 16:33, Alf Bentley said:

 

Much bigger margin than expected, it seems.

 

What does it mean? Any political or strategic shifts she's likely to make? Over to our Lib Dems expert...... @LiberalFox :thumbup:

She was always the favourite and in my opinion most suitable candidate, it was good for the party to actually have a contest and Ed Davey was able to showcase a few interesting ideas. I wouldn't expect any dramatic shifts but every leader has their own way of doing things.

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