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12 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Of course, but then equally do not claim that it is a rehash of May’s deal without scrutinising it.

I don’t know why it’s a surprise that it’s 95% the same as Mays deal anyway. Did they think that in 5 weeks he would negotiate a completely new treaty? Of course that was needed as a foundation and it was always going to be about removing the worst offending items from that deal.


That said, if Downing Street had issued an update of all the things removed and all the new things inserted. Along with the political declaration, this argument would not be happening. They certainly make a rod for their own back at times.

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33 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t know why it’s a surprise that it’s 95% the same as Mays deal anyway. Did they think that in 5 weeks he would negotiate a completely new treaty? Of course that was needed as a foundation and it was always going to be about removing the worst offending items from that deal.


That said, if Downing Street had issued an update of all the things removed and all the new things inserted. Along with the political declaration, this argument would not be happening. They certainly make a rod for their own back at times.

I still love your optimism after all this time. I'd imagine people would still be saying they need to scrutinise every word. Boris can't be trusted don't you know. 

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9 minutes ago, adam1 said:

The only way out of this mess is a legally binding referendum on boris deal or remain. 

No it isn’t, that wouldn’t solve it at all.

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52 minutes ago, adam1 said:

The only way out of this mess is a legally binding referendum on boris deal or remain. 

 

Absolutely.  I also maintain that it should be made compulsory for people to vote on this.  It also requires an independent body to lay out exactly, in easy to understand terms, what exactly is being proposed in this deal that can be then distributed to the UK population for scrutiny.  No more lies, no more BS.

 

42 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No it isn’t, that wouldn’t solve it at all.

 

What would then?

 

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6 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

Absolutely.  I also maintain that it should be made compulsory for people to vote on this.  It also requires an independent body to lay out exactly, in easy to understand terms, what exactly is being proposed in this deal that can be then distributed to the UK population for scrutiny.  No more lies, no more BS.

 

 

What would then?

 

What sort of democracy forces people to vote?!

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16 minutes ago, ttfn said:

What sort of democracy forces people to vote?!

 

Australia.

 

Someone I know had an election called on the same day as her wedding. The entire wedding had to go to vote between the ceremony and the dinner. Their photos made the papers.

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2 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Australia

 

1 minute ago, Guesty said:

 

Australia.

 

Someone I know had an election called on the same day as her wedding. The entire wedding had to go to vote between the ceremony and the dinner. Their photos made the papers.

This has blown my mind.

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27 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

What would then?

 

I didn’t say I had the answer but I know that will not put this to bed.

If remain won a legally binding referendum, people would still feel betrayed that the first result was never implemented and pushed towards extremist politics. 
If leave won, we would still be here.

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You can't make a referendum legally binding anyway. Nothing to stop a party standing at a GE after on a mandate to leave or rejoin in that.

 

Before 2016 there was pretty much a nationwide consensus we had to have referenda with a 50+ majority to determine this sort of question. 

 

Now we have lost losers consent and the Lib Dems want to revoke on a majority anything goes.

 

Even if Remain won a second referendum I'm now cool with the Tories dragging us out on a manifesto promise on 35% with no deal - what's the ****ing point of respecting and implementing votes if your opponents don't do the same?

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42 minutes ago, MattP said:

You can't make a referendum legally binding anyway. Nothing to stop a party standing at a GE after on a mandate to leave or rejoin in that.

 

Before 2016 there was pretty much a nationwide consensus we had to have referenda with a 50+ majority to determine this sort of question. 

 

Now we have lost losers consent and the Lib Dems want to revoke on a majority anything goes.

 

Even if Remain won a second referendum I'm now cool with the Tories dragging us out on a manifesto promise on 35% with no deal - what's the ****ing point of respecting and implementing votes if your opponents don't do the same?

Earlier in this thread @LiberalFox was saying the rise of UKIP was irrelevant and we should have ignored them. 
They got a higher percentage vote share in 2015 than the Lib Dem’s did in the last 2 elections. So clearly the Libs should be ignored.

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2 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Nothing. The country is far too split down the middle for this to be resolved any time soon.

Sad but true. 

Country feels split in 3; those for Brexit, those against it and those that genuinely don't care and want it sorted already.  

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2 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

Absolutely.  I also maintain that it should be made compulsory for people to vote on this.  It also requires an independent body to lay out exactly, in easy to understand terms, what exactly is being proposed in this deal that can be then distributed to the UK population for scrutiny.  No more lies, no more BS.

 

 

What would then?

 

A referendum on the Boris deal or No Deal Brexit.

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I don't see what good a short extension will do. Take the deal or extend to end of 2020 or until parliament have come to some kind of a consensus.

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

what's the ****ing point of respecting and implementing votes if your opponents don't do the same?

What's the point in having a vote if the majority of stuff that was promised was a pack of lies? Brexiteers think it is undemocratic to not respect the referendum. Remainers think it's undemocratic to say a vote for something means you will get "A, B and C" and then actually be told that it means "A, Y and Z" after the vote. May as well say anything if you like, if there's no accountability for making those things happen.

 

This is why there will never be agreement, because both sides genuinely believe that implementing one decision is an affront to democracy and due democratic process. I firmly believe Brexit is undemocratic.

Edited by Charl91
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32 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

What's the point in having a vote if the majority of stuff that was promised was a pack of lies? Brexiteers think it is undemocratic to not respect the referendum. Remainers think it's undemocratic to say a vote for something means you will get "A, B and C" and then actually be told that it means "A, Y and Z" after the vote. May as well say anything if you like, if there's no accountability for making those things happen.

 

This is why there will never be agreement, because both sides genuinely believe that implementing one decision is an affront to democracy and due democratic process. I firmly believe Brexit is undemocratic.

Find me one election or referendum in history where you can't find a lie from the winning side.

 

Had Remain won you wouldn't care about the lies they told, just admit it.

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I think people need to realise that there are millions in the UK who are worried they may lose a lot things after Brexit. Their and their family's rights to live easily abroad, their jobs, some of their incomes on more expensive good, peace in Northern Ireland, the Union. I'm not saying those things definitely will happen, but there is a chance they might.

 

It's fine talking about "losers consent", but millions of people will simply never totally accept the risks that Brexit entails. It's absurd to think they would. Using other GE's as an example is also a fallacy as there has never been a GE with so much at stake. Saying "yeah well we can't predict the future" isn't going to convince 60-70% of the population. 

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10 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think people need to realise that there are millions in the UK who are worried they may lose a lot things after Brexit. Their and their family's rights to live easily abroad, their jobs, some of their incomes on more expensive good, peace in Northern Ireland, the Union. I'm not saying those things definitely will happen, but there is a chance they might.

 

It's fine talking about "losers consent", but millions of people will simply never totally accept the risks that Brexit entails. It's absurd to think they would. Using other GE's as an example is also a fallacy as there has never been a GE with so much at stake. Saying "yeah well we can't predict the future" isn't going to convince 60-70% of the population. 

Then don't have elections then. The same people saying this will be a disaster and also the same people saying Corbyn and McDonnell will also be that, job losses, capital flight etc

 

So do we leave Labour off the ballot paper at the next election? Of course we don't. 

 

Democracy can be shit - but believe me it's far better than any alternative. 

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3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Then don't have elections then. The same people saying this will be a disaster and also the same people saying Corbyn and McDonnell will also be that, job losses, capital flight etc

 

So do we leave Labour off the ballot paper at the next election? Of course we don't. 

 

Democracy can be shit - but believe me it's far better than any alternative. 

If they are, they'll be voted out next time. We can't go back to how it was once this is done. Its final.

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1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

If they are, they'll be voted out next time. We can't go back to how it was once this is done. Its final.

Of course you can - you are free to campaign and have a vote to rejoin as soon as we've left, that's democracy. 

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1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

If they are, they'll be voted out next time. We can't go back to how it was once this is done. Its final.

Not really, there is nothing to stop us reapplying again in the future. In fact after the deal was announced this week, macron and Varadkar said as much in their speeches.

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