Tactics Talk:

[StriderHiryu]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

If the opposition are behaving as in that gif then there’s no point ! 

I ask the question is because it comes up time and time again in every match thread we have, even when we win games. I understand the frustration behind it, but there is a very good reason for doing it; to try to break down a low block, which is what teams have been doing against us since we won the title in 15/16.

 

All top teams play some form of possession football, and we are trying to become a top team. Given that we finished 5th two seasons in a row and won the FA Cup, we aren't that far away from being considered a top team either.

 

Quoting from a good tactics side / handbook and using an example of Liverpool playing:

 

One of the most well covered necessities for attempting to break down a low block is ensuring there is patience as a unit and the ball is circulated effectively from one side to the other. In doing this, the possession team force the opposition to continuously switch from flank to flank, and space can eventually be created between defenders and between the lines, for a forward pass to be made.

 

 

Passes of a good, sustainable tempo are important, whilst the shift of the pass needs to be made off few touches. The ball can be switched in one fell swoop with a long pass from one side to the other but this is more risky in terms of accuracy and having potential to be intercepted, leaving the previously in possession team vulnerable to the counter. 

 

Rodgers wants us to shift the ball from one side to the other quickly to draw out players from the opposition team to create space for our players to run into. Then using that space, transition the ball quickly to make goal scoring opportunities. Where we are going wrong isn't that we play the ball side-to-side, it's that we play it too across the lines far too slowly. On top of this recently our distribution and playing out from the back has been poor, with Kasper and defenders making mistakes.

 

So why play that way at all? Why not go more direct like Burnley or Everton under Benitez even? Because in the long term playing that style has a glass ceiling, whereas playing the way he's trying to instil into our club is how you become a genuine top team in Europe.

 

Every top team does what we do; go side-to-side for long periods of time. I've seen Man City do it, Chelsea, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, etc. Football at the highest level is a tactical game and no matter how good you are, you can't just attack, attack, attack. Rodgers makes us play a style where more often that not we win games because we have more possession, more shots and better opportunities than the opposition. 

[filbertway]

22 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Question for you. Why do you think we use this approach within a match?

It's "risk averse" and safe in theory. Unless the ball ends up with Wilf. Against better teams, they press us and we spend most of the time chipping the ball out of play or losing the ball on the edge of our box. People call Rodgers a genius when we manage to get into the other teams half about 5 times in the first half. Against poorer teams they just sit in and wait for the mistake, which often happens as were so static and rigid.

 

 

First half we play this awful soul sucking way, then when things get desperate we start to attack and actually look a dangerous outfit. It also forces more players back and pulls them out of position, so when they win it back, we often end up with the ball back quite quickly.

 

It must be hard for the players to turn from safety mode to attacking mode during a game. If you'e being told to be tactically rigid and safe during a game, then mentally it must be very difficult to flick the switch and try and be more attacking and brave in getting forwards and playing more direct progressive football.

[StriderHiryu]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

There’s a time and place. Exclusively, every game, the main intent? Nah.

 

Yeah fair enough. I wasn't trying to be facetious with the question, and I do understand the frustration. I've replied with why we do it above this post, but it's fair to say that often we aren't using the sideways possession for any meaningful reason.

 

Personally I admire Rodgers for having a philosophy and style of play. When it clicks, we play better stuff than at any time I've seen in 30+ years as a fan. But it's hard to teach, and there's a reason why typically only the best teams are capable of playing in such a way.

[coolhandfox]

@StriderHiryu

 

For the 4-3-3 to be successful, we will need the extra CM and the RW to chip in with goals and assists as JM in the 10 role in the 4-2-3-1 has provided 13, 9, 14 goal contributions in the last 3 seasons. That's a lot to find.

 

If we intended to play 4-3-3, I can't help think we needed to go out and get that class RW to make up for the lack of a 10. 

 

I still think we look at our flowing best with an on-form Maddison playing as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1 or, as you say when Nacho has come on in that role in the last few games. However, it takes a while to make a new system work. 

[StriderHiryu]

15 minutes ago, turlo said:

Do you think part of his recent preference to go with the extra midfielder in a 4 3 3, is it offers more protection to our vulnerable back line with Ndidi maintaining his position in the holding role, rather than pushing further forward like he has been in the 4 2 3 1?

Great question!

 

Pure speculation from me here:

 

- In too many games last season against teams we should have beaten we got overrun in midfield; Leeds, West Ham, Fulham, Arsenal.

- It offers more control during a typical Premier League game. We should have even more possession.

- It gives us more energy in the team.

- The number 10 is a bit of a luxury that doesn't contribute enough to the game over the course of 90 minutes because they are playing between the lines so often. Especially on the defensive side.

- Allows us to win the ball back more often higher up the pitch by having two box-to-box-midfielders. 

- Because it's the system Johan Cruyff used at Barcelona! (Not kidding here)

[filbertway]

Just now, StriderHiryu said:

Great question!

 

Pure speculation from me here:

 

- In too many games last season against teams we should have beaten we got overrun in midfield; Leeds, West Ham, Fulham, Arsenal.

- It offers more control during a typical Premier League game. We should have even more possession.

- It gives us more energy in the team.

- The number 10 is a bit of a luxury that doesn't contribute enough to the game over the course of 90 minutes because they are playing between the lines so often. Especially on the defensive side.

- Allows us to win the ball back more often higher up the pitch by having two box-to-box-midfielders. 

- Because it's the system Johan Cruyff used at Barcelona! (Not kidding here)

It's great seeing your input back in here though, I had been wondering where you had been the previous month or so as I hadn't noticed you posting as much. Was assuming you'd done what so many of us need to do, and gone and got a life

 

[StriderHiryu]

4 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

@StriderHiryu

 

For the 4-3-3 to be successful, we will need the extra CM and the RW to chip in with goals and assists as JM in the 10 role in the 4-2-3-1 has provided 13, 9, 14 goal contributions in the last 3 seasons. That's a lot to find.

 

If we intended to play 4-3-3, I can't help think we needed to go out and get that class RW to make up for the lack of a 10. 

 

I still think we look at our flowing best with an on-form Maddison playing as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1 or, as you say when Nacho has come on in that role in the last few games. However, it takes a while to make a new system work. 

I don't disagree with what you've put there.

 

Liverpool get a lot of goal contributions from their full backs, so that's another way to make up the difference. 

 

The bit I've put in bold I 100% agree with. Usually I'd say you need 5-6 games playing that way to really hit the heights at minimum. 

 

I'm not saying 433 is better or worse than 4231, ultimately the results will do the talking! But I find it interesting that we are using it now, when we didn't play that way at all last season.

[Guest ttfn]

Great collection of posts @StriderHiryu

[StriderHiryu]

2 minutes ago, filbertway said:

It's great seeing your input back in here though, I had been wondering where you had been the previous month or so as I hadn't noticed you posting as much. Was assuming you'd done what so many of us need to do, and gone and got a life

 

As you can see with the amount of posts from me on the forum today, I think it's safe to assume that today is the dreaded "slow day in the office" .

 

 

Edited 27 September 2021 by StriderHiryu

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Yeah fair enough. I wasn't trying to be facetious with the question, and I do understand the frustration. I've replied with why we do it above this post, but it's fair to say that often we aren't using the sideways possession for any meaningful reason.

 

Personally I admire Rodgers for having a philosophy and style of play. When it clicks, we play better stuff than at any time I've seen in 30+ years as a fan. But it's hard to teach, and there's a reason why typically only the best teams are capable of playing in such a way.

In games like Saturday's I genuinely don't know what else we're meant to do. There's no space in behind their defence for balls over the top or down the channels, we're not going to get anything out of long balls to their centre backs, if we commit loads of players forwards and get the full backs constantly pushing on they're going to counter us, if we sit deep and try to draw them onto us they're not going to be interested. If there's a better alternative to being patient, keeping the ball moving and trying to shift them out of position then I'd love to hear it. For all that our passing was pretty wayward all afternoon, if our final ball wasn't so shit and Vardy hadn't glanced one past Schmeichel it would have worked a treat.

 

I think the thing that sums it up best is the angry old man who sits behind me at the games. When we're patient and keep the ball, he moans. When go direct or we pass it forward and give it away, he moans. What a lot of these people want is for us to be constantly attacking, piling forward and scoring goals but also never giving the ball away, making mistakes or conceding.

Edited 27 September 2021 by Guest

[coolhandfox]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

I don't disagree with what you've put there.

 

Liverpool get a lot of goal contributions from their full backs, so that's another way to make up the difference. 

 

The bit I've put in bold I 100% agree with. Usually I'd say you need 5-6 games playing that way to really hit the heights at minimum. 

 

I'm not saying 433 is better or worse than 4231, ultimately the results will do the talking! But I find it interesting that we are using it now, when we didn't play that way at all last season.

The only negative I have it is a hard system to fit our most creative players in Maddison (an on-form one, not the current one) and Nacho. 

 

With Soumare and KDH in the squad, it's more of a viable choice this season. I doubt Rodger would have fancied playing it last year with Mendy, Choudury and Praet to choose from.

 

However, I think it would have suited Praet to play in a three. 

 

He has shown a genuine willingness to adapt his tactics and formation, which goes against a lot of the flak he gets on here.

[StriderHiryu]

6 minutes ago, Guest said:

In games like Saturday's I genuinely don't know what else we're meant to do. There's no space in behind their defence for balls over the top or down the channels, we're not going to get anything out of long balls to their centre backs, if we commit loads of players forwards and get the full backs constantly pushing on they're going to counter us, if we sit deep and try to draw them onto us they're not going to be interested. If there's a better alternative to being patient, keeping the ball moving and trying to shift them out of position then I'd love to hear it. For all that our passing was pretty wayward all afternoon, if our final ball wasn't so shit and Vardy hadn't glanced one past Schmeichel it would have worked a treat.

 

I think the thing that sums it up best is the angry old man who sits behind me at the games. When we're patient and keep the ball, he moans. When go direct or we pass it forward and give it away, he moans. What a lot of these people want is for us to be constantly attacking, piling forward and scoring goals but also never giving the ball away, making mistakes or conceding.

I share your pain  ! Great post by the way!

 

Leicester have traditionally been a mid-table Premier League / Top half Championship team. Thus most fans have sees us play direct football a lot more often than a more technical style. I adored our team during the MON era, but that team was about shifting the ball to Guppy or Impey to cross the ball into Heskey, and then winning second balls from that cross for Cottee and an on rushing Izzet to score from. We were a good team, we even won trophies, but we never finished above 8th playing that way. Our current style has dramatically improved the team, even if we've missed out on some golden opportunities. And this team is way more enjoyable to watch than the MON team, even though I loved them.

 

There are other ways to play:

- Play direct like Burnley themselves. Pick moments to go long and win the second ball from your target man.

- Play counter attack like a famous East Midlands team did in 15/16. Somehow I don't think having 30% possession against Burnley would result in a better result though!

- Play even more tiki-taka like 2010 Barcelona.

- Play an insane high line like Liverpool / Bayern under Hansi Flick, Atalanta, Leeds to some extent.

- Some combination of styles.

 

All of these styles have pros and cons to them. Leeds play a more offensive style than us, but have had a bad start to the season. Spurs tried to counter attack Arsenal yesterday... didn't turn out too well for them.

 

The thing with football is most people watch it for entertainment, so they want to be entertained. I am in that camp too! But during a 90 minute match, there isn't 90 minutes of action. People focus on the goals, but not on the previous 3 minutes of play that led to the goal, which is where managers get paid the big bucks to work on. 

 

But what I will say is that there are some valid questions and concerns at the moment. Namely:

- Why play it out from the back so often when it leads to so many individual errors. Even Man City's Ederson smashes it down the park several times a match.

- Why play Maddison when he slows our attacks down. (This has been rectified recently)

- Why play Perez when he slows our attacks down / doesn't contribute enough goals and assists (again rectified recently).

- Why are we not playing Kelechi Iheanacho when he has one of the best goal contribution rates in Europe?

 

All of those latter questions are worthy of discussion, no doubt about it.

[messerschmitt]

25 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

I don't disagree with what you've put there.

 

Liverpool get a lot of goal contributions from their full backs, so that's another way to make up the difference. 

 

The bit I've put in bold I 100% agree with. Usually I'd say you need 5-6 games playing that way to really hit the heights at minimum. 

 

I'm not saying 433 is better or worse than 4231, ultimately the results will do the talking! But I find it interesting that we are using it now, when we didn't play that way at all last season.

I think we'll be using both 433 and 4231 depending on the opposition, who's injured and who needs resting.

[StriderHiryu]

20 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

The only negative I have it is a hard system to fit our most creative players in Maddison (an on-form one, not the current one) and Nacho. 

 

With Soumare and KDH in the squad, it's more of a viable choice this season. I doubt Rodger would have fancied playing it last year with Mendy, Choudury and Praet to choose from.

 

However, I think it would have suited Praet to play in a three. 

 

He has shown a genuine willingness to adapt his tactics and formation, which goes against a lot of the flak he gets on here.

 

Belgium play 433, so Praet could have been good as an option for it. But Rodgers didn't fancy Praet for some reason and persisted with an underperforming Maddison and Perez for months and not sure what the reason was to be honest. Maybe he felt Praet wasn't physical enough for the Premier League to do the job he wanted from him. Soumare looks like the latest in a long line of players that dominate this league; Vieira, Yaya Toure, Fernandinho, Moussa Dembele, Pogba, etc. A box-to-box midfielder than can run for days.

 

We shouldn't underestimate Lookman in the 433 either. Against Brighton the 433 looked laborious until he came on, then it opened up. Having a player on the right and left hand sides to drive at players makes more space for the fullbacks and box to box midfielders to work in.

 

6 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

I think we'll be using both 433 and 4231 depending on the opposition, who's injured and who needs resting.

Agreed. As Finnegan mentioned in another thread, I think we should have played 4231 against Burnley, because they bypass midfield a lot and we weren't getting overrun there. We should have played 433 against West Ham! Soucek and Rice bullied us again...

[An Sionnach]

In those games where we are denied possession, we always seem more dangerous and our defence looks stronger. We often play better and achieve results against Chelsea, Man.City , Man Utd. etc. The ideal of possession football and theoretically controlling play doesn't work so well. This is a very difficult conundrum to solve. We conceded possession most of the time in 15/16 and produced outstanding results. There are really no easy answers.

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

In those games where we are denied possession, we always seem more dangerous and our defence looks stronger. We often play better and achieve results against Chelsea, Man.City , Man Utd. etc. The ideal of possession football and theoretically controlling play doesn't work so well. This is a very difficult conundrum to solve. We conceded possession most of the time in 15/16 and produced outstanding results. There are really no easy answers.

Those teams attack the game and look to dominate possession, so we can setup to counter attack them.

 

When we play other teams in the division, especially at the King Power, those teams sit back and play counter attacking football to us. If we sat back and also countered, then you're headed for 0-0 draw territory. Our home record has been awful since winning the league for this reason.

 

The best teams can play any style, and Rodgers is trying to get the team to do it. Pep Guardiola has said that Leicester are the most versatile team in the league and when we play Man City, he's not 100% sure what to expect because we've beaten them with the counter attack (5-2 win) and playing proactively (Shield). So Rodgers is doing a fantastic job in that regard.

 

The Premier League is insanely competitive and I'd remind everyone on here that in the last two seasons we have finished above Arsenal and Spurs who have resources we can only dream of. We've won trophies. We develop young players from the academy. We play good football. What this club has achieved is nothing short of a miracle!

 

This season we haven't just gone into it without trying to address issues from last time round. Whether or not the 433 is the answer we don't know, but it shows that Rodgers isn't always stubborn, and is humble enough to change things around and try something different.   

[Lambert09]

Now that we have TC and RP both fully fit, I really think the return of 3 at the back is needed.  Our sloppy defending has gone on for too long now and an extra body would be really helpful. 
 

would love to try out 

 

        JV         PD/HB

               KI

         YT       WN

TC.                            RP

       CS.  JE.    JV

               KS

[The People's Hero]

Just now, Lambert09 said:

 

 

        JV         PD/HB

               KI

         YT       WN

TC.                            RP

       CS.  JE.    JV

               KS

I love crosswords. What are the clues?

[foxfan92]

12 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

Now that we have TC and RP both fully fit, I really think the return of 3 at the back is needed.  Our sloppy defending has gone on for too long now and an extra body would be really helpful. 
 

would love to try out 

 

        JV         PD/HB

               KI

         YT       WN

TC.                            RP

       CS.  JE.    JV

               KS

Playing Vardy in a back 3 is almost as bold as playing Vestergaard up front.

 

Why is Barnes on the right?

[Lambert09]

6 minutes ago, foxfan92 said:

Playing Vardy in a back 3 is almost as bold as playing Vestergaard up front.

 

Why is Barnes on the right?

Just to confuse the opposition.
 

Haha nah, I originally just had daka and couldn’t be bothered to reorganize it on my phone. 

[Stadt]

Rodgers is too strict with our build up play, we play very short far too often. Even when it’s obviously putting us under pressure.

 

The idea of playing shorter passes is to invite pressure to exploit the space further up the pitch - when we’re not actually making the penetrative runs & passes to exploit that space it defeats the object.

 

This is conjecture on my part but I get the sense Rodgers to focussed on ‘controlling’ a game at the expense of how dangerous we are. Sometimes we just have to be aggressive with our selection, style of play, runs & passes.

[Lambert09]

27 minutes ago, The People's Hero said:

I love crosswords. What are the clues?

This guy is clearly mental as he chose to join because of puel -RP 

 

This guy makes fans regret slating Ryan Bennett-JV 

 

Goat -jv

 

a simple kick has gone out for a throw in for the 7th time today -ks 

 

This guy pissed in Brendan’s cornflakes - KI 

 

he may not be able to walk but he’s our glue - JE 

 

he looks like a nutter and often plays like one - CS

 

thunderbastard - yt 

 

This guy is definitely more robin than Batman - TC 

 

he just lost the ball, he just won the ball, he just lost the ball he just won the ball, he’s banged it into the stands from 30 yards- WN 

 

He’s going to be the next Jamie Vardy, or the next ade akinbiyi-PD 

 

he looks like a child but runs like usain bolt. Some say he’s never been out of breath- HB 

 

Edited 27 September 2021 by Lambert09

[The People's Hero]

Just now, Lambert09 said:

This guy is clearly mental as he chose to join because of puel -RP 

 

This guy makes fans regret slating Ryan Bennett-JV 

 

Goat -jv

 

a simple kick has gone out for a throw in for the 7th time today -ks 

 

This guy pissed in Brendan’s cornflakes - KI 

 

he may not be able to walk but he’s our glue - JE 

 

he looks like a butter and often plays like one - CS

 

thunderbastard - yt 

 

This guy is definitely more robin than Batman - TC 

 

he just lost the ball, he just won the ball, he just lost the ball he just won the ball, he’s banged it into the stands from 30 yards- WN 

 

He’s going to be the next Jamie Vardy, or the next aide akinbiyi-PD 

 

he looks like a child but runs like usain bolt. Some say he’s never been out of breath- HB 

 

I'm a fan. I'd like you to make all of your points/posts in this style.

[An Sionnach]

We seem to have two different sets of attackers, Vardy, Barnes, Daka and Lookman are ideally suited to fast breaking football while Maddison, Perez and Iheanacho are more suited to close passing, interchanging around the opposition penalty area . Blending their strengths is something that Rodgers needs to achieve.

[whoareyaaa]

4 hours ago, Guest said:

In games like Saturday's I genuinely don't know what else we're meant to do. There's no space in behind their defence for balls over the top or down the channels, we're not going to get anything out of long balls to their centre backs, if we commit loads of players forwards and get the full backs constantly pushing on they're going to counter us, if we sit deep and try to draw them onto us they're not going to be interested. If there's a better alternative to being patient, keeping the ball moving and trying to shift them out of position then I'd love to hear it. For all that our passing was pretty wayward all afternoon, if our final ball wasn't so shit and Vardy hadn't glanced one past Schmeichel it would have worked a treat.

 

I think the thing that sums it up best is the angry old man who sits behind me at the games. When we're patient and keep the ball, he moans. When go direct or we pass it forward and give it away, he moans. What a lot of these people want is for us to be constantly attacking, piling forward and scoring goals but also never giving the ball away, making mistakes or conceding.

Sounds like 2015/2016